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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

April 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

1000 replies

AttilaTheMeerkat · 17/04/2022 00:42

It’s April 2022 and the Stately Home is still open to all comers.

OP posts:
TryingNotToReact9to5 · 05/05/2022 21:47

I hear you, I'm angry too and also many years away from being able to just breezily shrug over this.

The shocking realisation that my family is just flawed but rigid players on a stage, and when you try to make it a bit more real, by trying to communicate, ask questions, listen, be heard.........be seen for who I really am, not the part, it makes my mother so angry. I must play the part she wrote for me. There will be no discussion. Ever. And my father and brother back her up, always, no matter what.

My brother joined in the cacophony of ''you're mad'' recently and told me that I was my own worst enemy. I think my answer caught him off guard though. I told him, no, I'm not my own worst enemy and that's why playing the part of Daughter with no voice in the family DOES NOT WORK FOR ME
It was the first time I'd responded with what doesn't work for me. before I've always tried to get through to him, always tried in vain to get him to SEE MY SIDE

he was shocked I think. No response. But he didn't double down on the ''you're mad'' narrative. Which I see as progress! ha.

I have just ordered a book I saw recommended on another thread, by Carolyn Spring, the best revenge is recovery. HOpefully it's good.

Evans83 · 06/05/2022 11:56

I've just started to become so down about the never ending saga with my mum. I've tried to spend less and less time with her, not as if she notices or ever asks really about my life. I've recently become so angry as i see lots of good people who have lost their lives during covid and are taken so early and i just look at my mum recently and think what are you contributing? Why are you still here? She barely leaves the house and is happy to just spend all her savings on fags and then complain endlessly about worrying about money... I know it's very dark but i would not be upset if i got a call to say she had passed away... in fact i actually find myself hoping for it. Horrible to say i know but i have to let it out as it's eating me up inside. I have no feelings left for her at all.

TryingNotToReact9to5 · 07/05/2022 07:58

Also I think the anger protects you for a while. You're so justifiably angry and you have the right to be and then after a while, the steam runs out of your anger and you feel the sadness. It's really tough.

Coffeeaddict1992 · 08/05/2022 08:57

I have been reading through the thread and I’m shocked to see others posting about being triggered. This happens to me all the time at work. I’ve been through a lot in my life and when I come across a narcissist at work I can see straight through them even if they manage to fool everyone else.

I’ve tried to speak to my manager about one or two people over the years and they just gaslight me, told me not to let it bother me etc. The thing is with people like us is we have trauma and we can’t just “not let it bother us.” I also have anxiety and it’s very difficult for me to stop worrying about something. I get triggered all the time by one woman who is exactly like my mum. Drives me mad.

Here’s my thread if anyone wants to take a look

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/4545257-when-you-are-nc-with-a-parent-what-happens-with-the-rest-of-the-family

I’m so sad to read everyone’s stories, I’m glad we have found a forum where we can dicuss our issues and get advice from others in similar situations x 💐🌸

TryingNotToReact9to5 · 08/05/2022 09:51

Oh same here @Coffeeaddict1992 don't mind telling this thread that the post cannot hide my ptsd at work was me. Just minimising slightly the chances of a colleague realising hey,thats 9to5

But right now for me at the stage I'm at in my healing, I think there is something jarring when I first meet covert narcissists in the workplace. It didn't used to happen, because once upon a time I went straight in to fawn mode and they realised that I wasn't a threat, now, they filed me under subordinate and ignored me. But now, the stage in my healing that I'm at, I'm aware enough to see the dynamic but not confident enough that I'd ever win if I went head to head with them, so to them I'm a minor threat that can be dealt with.

I'm sitting there just privately thinking hmmm ''I'm still assessing'', not verbalising anything, but they notice that I'm not fawning. They look at the semii healed non-fawning colleague and they think, ''em hello excuse me, you aren't fawning over me? what's the point of having you around? You're not higher status than me so can't validate me, you're lower status than I am and yet you're not fawning over me, and worse, some of the people i'm trying to win over seem to like you, wtf.''

It sounds crazy typed but a relative did the same thing to me. the two covert narcs had never met and it was 5 years apart but they behaved in the exact same way. Simultaneously fawning over ''higher status'' people (as decided by them) and icing me completely. In a way it's a compliment because if you weren't on the radar at all you'd just be ignored which isn't as deliberate as being iced out of the group

Coffeeaddict1992 · 08/05/2022 09:58

@TryingNotToReact9to5 its so difficult isn’t it. I totally agree, I’ve been noticing the same at work. People with normal upbringings or relationships can’t possibly understand. It changes how I view everyone.

MonkeyfromManchester · 10/05/2022 09:06

@ChiswickFlo thank you. I’m so sorry that you’re going through Toxic Family Hell as well.

I know! Yes, the money arrived. A great wad of it in an envelope pushed through the door. Mr Monkey can put it towards his therapy. He’s on a low income so I’ll be paying for his therapy for a while when his employer’s contribution runs out. I’d rather buy us a holiday, but then again I’d rather live with someone who’s working through the damage. I’m thinking the long term and I’m glad he’s doing it, although it’s incredibly hard work.

It’s REALLY hard at the moment. I think because I’ve gone NC with the witch, I’m not caught up in the drama on stage anymore, and I’m watching from the best seats in the house. It’ll pass, but I’m sick of his toxic family.

Mr Monkey is getting to grips with it all and the scales are really lifting from his eyes through the therapy. He’s seeing Slave Brother as much more of a problem than a victim. He used the words “toxic masculinity” to describe him the other day. YES!

The Hag has behaved abysmally over the last few days over her problems with her flat DESPITE (increasingly, I’m thinking BECAUSE) of the help given by Mr Monkey.

And then when she realises she’s behaved really badly - or, sorry, when she thinks ‘oh shit I’m in danger here of losing the servants’ - the pathetic apologies start followed by in almost the same breath more vileness.

On Sunday we had the pathetic “I think you don’t want to speak to me anymore because you don’t ring me”. I think this is supposed to elicit guilt and “you’re the best mum in the world” from Mr Monkey. And it’s not actually true. He does ring her to sort out this endless shit with her flat or practicalities like medical appointments. But, no, he doesn’t ring her for a chat as there’s no conversation or niceties to be had. And no, the guilt triggers don’t work any more.

She’s 85. Surely to god, this can’t go on for much longer.

Thank god, my counselling starts again tomorrow.

ChiswickFlo · 10/05/2022 14:52

Oh, I do feel for you monkey
Your dh is very lucky to have you x
I refuse to be dragged into mils health issues. I'll help with admin (I'm good at it) but that's it.
I feel sorry for dh. It'll be awful.
Mum is getting better very slowly. 3 weeks til we take her home to see family.
I am ABSOLUTELY dreading it and am pretty annoyed at dh for bloody suggesting it in the first place 😬

MonkeyfromManchester · 10/05/2022 16:35

@ChiswickFlo i saw your post about the double whammy of your mum’s health and your MIL. It’s an absolute nightmare as I think any health issues gives them permission to be even more hideous. I don’t know about you, but I’m grateful for people helping me or checking in when I’m ill. That’s a normal response. A family relationship shouldn’t be the excuse to behave disgustingly.

Your DH is doing helpful. Is he a peacemaker? That’s my default setting, but I’ve moved the dial. That was really hard to do, but so necessary.

I used to do the admin side of things with social workers etc and, as all that is now in place, I’ve stepped away. The minute she needs more - like a care home on a rock in the mid-Atlantic - I will step back in. She knows and absolutely hates the fact I do that. And no I don’t consult her anymore as it’s utterly pointless.

She could have sheltered accommodation but refused. So, there we are. Better to live in a slum like flat in a dodgy tower block with ripped carpets and sofa.

So, in the Covid house - Mr Monkey is at his desk in what we call the sickly dressing gown and I’ve gone back to bed - MM has finally sorted out getting the Housing Association to go round to her lair AGAIN to sort out her heating. Constant phone calls to sort that out.

She can’t do Wednesday as the HA offered as that’s the day The Hag goes shopping (sorry, screaming) with Slave son. You’d think if it was such a big deal that she would change her arrangements, but no, why be flexible when you can be a horrible, awkward bitch? So, MM arranges Thursday - all the time he’s catching up on work and dealing with vulnerable people - he phones her to let her know.

Cue screaming. Literally screaming. Yes, she’s angry with the HA, but why shoot the messenger?

You don’t know what it’s like. You don’t care about me.

On repeat. Hyperventilating.

this is the son who’s been on the phone to the Housing Association every day, got local councillors to lean on the Housing people, checks in with her, offers to lend her a heater, get her hot water bottles which her three times a day carers to fill for her etc. The Housing people offered a heater.

All refused in the pursuit of martyrdom, spite and an excuse to act like a Five Star Bitch.

He keeps to the stuck record technique that you use with toddlers spelling out her options Wednesday or Thursday. Repeating that he’s spent FOUR weeks sorting this out for her.

then we get:

No one does anything for me. No one cares. I wish I was dead*.

It’s like dealing with a 13 year old.

I’ll ring you on Thursday to see if they’ve sorted it out.
oh you will, will you?

why does she think anyone wants to speak to her AT ALL. She’s blocked on my phone. As is Slave Son. Increasingly, I see him as part of the vile dynamic. He’s 62 and needs to grow a pair and reduce contact like my partner has. I often fancy going round to her flat to scream at her and tell her how her abuse has made my partner ill, but it would only add petrol to the fire. Digging a shallow grave is an interesting alternative.

MM puts down the phone, he’s upset and I go downstairs to give him a hug. Thank god, he’s got counselling in five minutes. But why should his counselling have to be filled with the present moment and 15 minutes of abuse?

*she is not the only person who wishes she was dead. I will dance on the bitch’s grave. She is absolutely vile.

Notsuchabadadultchild · 11/05/2022 05:57

Hello,
I hope it's ok for.me to join. I have lurked on this series of threads for a long time while going hrough the long,. painful journey of realisation that there is no hope for my relationship with my father.
I'm not alone with it. I'm extremely lucky to have a sibling who is wonderful and on the same page. Their partner feels the same way, as does mine. Currently my main feeling is relief - its good to have finally decided that no contact is the only solution. My disorientation and panic was about knowing I was going to have to see him, and now it has been removed as an option I feel much better. I dont have that slow build up of anxiety for weeks before a meeting.
There are still huge problems to think about. My kids and their desire/need to see their grandfather. And my mum, who is very much under his control. But I am in a better place to consider them calmly.
I am sorry that so many of us have such difficult and damaging parents. These threads are amazing and I am certain there are many lurkers like me who have been reading and learning for years. They've helped me to realise that what I was going through was not OK or acceptable .

AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/05/2022 06:28

How old are your children?. They won’t likely realise that they have been manipulated and or otherwise used here by your parents. Give them the age appropriate truth re their grandparents, they are not good people to be around. You are the parent here and they rely on you to give them good guidance. If parents or relatives are too toxic/batshit etc for you to deal with it’s the SAME deal for your kids too.

as for your mother she gets what she wants out of the relationship with her husband and she has made her choice - him. She is his willing enabler and a person too who has thrown you under the bus out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

OP posts:
ChiswickFlo · 11/05/2022 06:45

@MonkeyfromManchester
Christ. I read your posts and am always horrified by that awful woman's behaviour. She is evil. And I don't use that word lightly.

I have been nc with my mil since June last year when she decided to start her racist bigotry at my child's 18th birthday celebrations. In front of witnesses - which shows she's losing some of her slyness as it was always 1-1 before.

It's dhs big birthday next month and I'm already dreading it. His parents will want to come and see him (which I understand) but the thought of her sitting in my house makes my skin crawl.

I shall busy myself in the kitchen I think! :)

I do feel sorry for her. Her health has taken a real downturn recenty after decades of being very healthy and she will not deal well with it.

I forsee hard times ahead tbh just for a change eh!? I'll do what I can to support dh but that's it.

My eldest son once said to me (after I came home in tears once from mums house) "you're not helping her becauae of who she is, you're helping her because of who you are". I think of that when things get tough.

Love to all x

ChiswickFlo · 11/05/2022 06:45

@MonkeyfromManchester
Christ. I read your posts and am always horrified by that awful woman's behaviour. She is evil. And I don't use that word lightly.

I have been nc with my mil since June last year when she decided to start her racist bigotry at my child's 18th birthday celebrations. In front of witnesses - which shows she's losing some of her slyness as it was always 1-1 before.

It's dhs big birthday next month and I'm already dreading it. His parents will want to come and see him (which I understand) but the thought of her sitting in my house makes my skin crawl.

I shall busy myself in the kitchen I think! :)

I do feel sorry for her. Her health has taken a real downturn recenty after decades of being very healthy and she will not deal well with it.

I forsee hard times ahead tbh just for a change eh!? I'll do what I can to support dh but that's it.

My eldest son once said to me (after I came home in tears once from mums house) "you're not helping her becauae of who she is, you're helping her because of who you are". I think of that when things get tough.

Love to all x

ChiswickFlo · 11/05/2022 06:50

The next hurdle with her (and fil) will be with ds2...

He's experimenting with make up (only at home) if she dares make any comment or upsets him I will never, ever, see or speak to her again.

He's a great kid. Clever, funny, kind, sweet, ...but mil is "religious" (allegedly) and has "issues" with lgbtq+ people.

God, she's such a fucking bigot. Argh.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/05/2022 07:08

Chiswick

I would not have his parents in your home, these aren’t nice people at all to be at all around. If your H wants to continue to have a relationship with them that’s up to him
but they should not visit your home. You owe his parents nothing particularly after her behaviour last time around. No contact as well is precisely that.

OP posts:
ChiswickFlo · 11/05/2022 07:21

AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/05/2022 07:08

Chiswick

I would not have his parents in your home, these aren’t nice people at all to be at all around. If your H wants to continue to have a relationship with them that’s up to him
but they should not visit your home. You owe his parents nothing particularly after her behaviour last time around. No contact as well is precisely that.

@AttilaTheMeerkat
I hear you. I do.
But dh gets very, very stressed at talking to them about this (well, about anytging difficult). And it's his birthday. And it's his home too. And now she may be ill.
Sigh.
I might have another chat with him.
She has form for cutting off close family members (historically) and I think this may be what dh is afraid of even if he won't admit it/it's subconscious?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/05/2022 07:30

It’s also your family home that belongs to you and your children.

You would not tolerate this from a friend, his parents are no different. having his mother in your home will put you back at square one as well as breaking the no contact.

Your Dh needs therapy re his parents and he cannot sacrifice his or his family’s wellbeing for them. They sadly have him well trained to put their needs first with his own dead last. He is mired in his own fear obligation and guilt. His discomfort re talking about them or in fact anything difficult is testament to that fact.

OP posts:
ChiswickFlo · 11/05/2022 07:44

Yes.
It's quite sad tbh.
They don't really talk about anything important. It's all a bit superficial. It's going to make future convos re: mils health very tricky.
I'll speak to him again.
My dcs love their gps. It's hard. I'm the only one who has an issue it seems 😕

AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/05/2022 08:51

Your DC may love their grandparents but it does not mean to say they actually like them. I also think your eldest child has been quite astute in what he has said about you as well. Your youngest should feel free to experiment with make up if he wants to in his home; sod what MIL thinks about that. You have had no contact with her for some time now for very good reason so MILs state of health should be of no direct concern to you. Protect your own self and your children from these toxic people; she's previously made racist comments and that in itself should be a red line in the sand. You cannot keep setting yourself on fire here to keep people like your H warm; he needs to face his fears head on rather than use you as a buffer.

OP posts:
MonkeyfromManchester · 11/05/2022 08:52

@Notsuchabadadultchild I hear you. It’s extremely difficult in a society where we’re conditioned to think family is everything to make a break for it. I’m glad you’ve got that support and you’re not alone in seeing the toxicity in your dad. It’s baby steps in thinking through the other aspects of the dynamic. It’s very, very hard to get rid of the guilt that you’re depriving your children of GPs and the sense of leaving your mum to him. Could you get some counselling to talk it through?

This forum is a lifeline. It’s got me from a place of guilt and obligation to my vile MIL to a place of NC and getting my partner to get therapy and put up boundaries. It’s taken two years but the support is here. I use the forum to rant (sorry) and to figure out what’s hidden. I’ve felt incredibly backed up.

keep talking - you’ve found your gang.

@ChiswickFlo oh there’s nothing as special as the religious bigots, is there? All that “goodness” masking some horrible behaviours/feelings. Hag is the same - she’s not racist or homophobic - but she’s a truly horrible person who hides behind being a good Catholic FFS.

and absolutely with regards to your son - I would kill, too.

somehow, I’ve got to the point of the Hag being banned from crossing our threshold, but I think that’s through my partner realising the damage she does. It had to be up to him to work it out. I do know if I’d made it MY battle of you’re not coming into my house very overtly with The Hag she would have loved it as then she could play MIL vs DIL power games with my partner in the middle.

That’s something to look out for and to swerve. You might be dealing with a barrel load of hidden possessiveness/resentment so tread carefully. If your DH doesn’t like conflict that’s often a reaction to being surrounded by conflict in one’s family whether it’s open or hidden.

But it is 50% your home and it is 150% your feelings and mental well-being.

last evening, The Hag, of course, phoned later to ‘apologise’. Plastic apologies. They’re not real, they’re about her ensuring people are still roped in.

She didn’t use to apologise until Mr Monkey put up boundaries. She doesn’t apologise to Slave Son who is utterly compliant. I’ve seen the apology game and it’s supposed to elicit a kiss and make up game. As I got stronger, I used to tell her I have nothing to apologise for. She HATED that as she could see I wasn’t being sucked back in. And now I don’t speak to her. MM doesn’t do compliance either, he points out she has a choice over how she behaves. She can’t believe people don’t buy the bullshit anymore. It’s actually hilarious to witness her disbelief. Less hilarious is staying on one’s toes to spot what’s coming next.

MM’s therapist is full of praise for the barriers he’s constructed. He’s on a journey and I’m so proud of him. Next steps are dealing with the trauma and PTSD which is going to be pretty hard core, but I’m with him.

He’s not had one of his horrendous screaming and shouting nightmares for six weeks since he started therapy, but he did last night. Just awful.

I’ve got to keep remembering his journey and how he’s somehow managed to survive decades of abuse. Things keep coming out. He told me the other day of her silent treatment which would go on for weeks of her staring right through him to the point of her just sitting watching TV with him in front of it trying to get attention or a reaction and her just sitting there with a cigarette not reacting.

She’s a nasty bit of work. My fantasy is telling her on her deathbed that any amount of the good Catholic BS won’t get her through the pearly gates but to a place that will burn her toxic Irish Catholic skinny carcass to a crisp!

Notsuchabadadultchild · 11/05/2022 15:14

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat and @MonkeyfromManchester, for the welcome.

I have a therapist I have worked with in the past, who I see over Zoom, as and when I need to.

The plain talking about my mum is spot on. She is part of the problem and the one I find the most difficult to reconcile. It's hard to accept that she has so consistently chosen my dad instead of her children. She is passive and always takes the path of least resistance, for an easy life. That's all true. And yet I go on nurturing a hope that somehow it could be different even though my rational brain knows it can't and won't be. I have tried to think of her as an abused partner and apply the advice on how to support a friend in that situation. So I try to keep hold of what's good about her and not apply pressure, and see her when she can manage, during her permitted activities. But on another level, she's my fucking MUM and I am fairly sure I'd move heaven and earth to keep a close relationship with my children, and I'm just so furious and upset that she has never tried. 💔

AttilaTheMeerkat · 11/05/2022 15:25

"I have tried to think of her as an abused partner and apply the advice on how to support a friend in that situation"

But she is actually her H's enabler and secondary abuser. As you write she has taken the path of least resistance for an easy life. She therefore cannot be at all relied upon nor trusted. She also gets what she wants out of the relationship she has with her H.

You have to let go of all residual hope that she will at all change, she will simply not. What also would you be supposedly depriving your children of if your parents did not see them?. Children need emotionally healthy role models and your parents do not fit the bill. If they are too toxic/difficult/batshit for YOU to deal with, its the SAME deal for your kids also.

OP posts:
ChiswickFlo · 11/05/2022 16:23

@MonkeyfromManchester

*somehow, I’ve got to the point of the Hag being banned from crossing our threshold, but I think that’s through my partner realising the damage she does. It had to be up to him to work it out. I do know if I’d made it MY battle of you’re not coming into my house very overtly with The Hag she would have loved it as then she could play MIL vs DIL power games with my partner in the middle.

That’s something to look out for and to swerve. You might be dealing with a barrel load of hidden possessiveness/resentment so tread carefully. If your DH doesn’t like conflict that’s often a reaction to being surrounded by conflict in one’s family whether it’s open or hidden.*

I think you're spot on and I think that's my main worry. I don't want to a) put dh in that position and b) give her the fucking satisfaction.

I WILL NOT play games. I'm just not interested in her bullshit. I can be quite PA when the mood takes me so I might ask his sibling over too and make a cake 🎂

No one can make horrible comments with their mouth full of cake 🤣

ChiswickFlo · 14/05/2022 08:26

Well...
Mum blue lighted to hospital again yesterday but no home
She was out of it last night
I don't think she's well enough to go to on the trip in 2 weeks
How the hell do I tell her?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 14/05/2022 08:57

I would not say anything as yet and would see what the hospital doctors say.

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