Prenup - would you sign?

[weddingbelles]

I'm getting married in a few months and am getting increasingly uncomfortable with the idea of a prenup, which I originally agreed to sign. DP and I are both high earners (~£300k between us, i out-earn him by about £20k, had a £50k pay rise recently), but he's coming to the marriage with about £500k in equity (family money). My current savings are around £15k, I'm a single parent and have only started earning well in the last couple of years, plus most of my savings have gone on the wedding.

We've have the drafts of our prenup and it's so horribly sterile,in-depth, and prescriptive. I'm happy to put his family's minds at ease by saying I have no right to the money he's received from them - I have a high moral standard and wouldn't want to have a claim on it in the event of divorce, it's not mine so I would never feel I could go after it - but I understand it makes sense to them to have this legally stated. Fine.

What I hate about this document is that it goes into such granular detail about every single bit of our finances, even allocating ownership of our wedding gifts, and financial support of my DCs (he's not their dad, I would never expect him to financially support them, that's on me).

It feels so cold and inhuman, I really don't want to sign the bloody thing. I feel like the lawyers are wasting so much time with clauses I never agreed to sign on - I don't want to sign anything that isn't to do with the initial capital my DP is bringing into the marriage. The thought of the back and forth to get these legalities sorted before our wedding is really upsetting, at a time we're supposed to be celebrating how in love we are. I don't want his money, I'm just looking forward to spending my life with him!!

What would you do?

You are both high earners . Give the 500k back to his father and start from scratch as a couple .

I'd also be nervous like FIL of a comparatively new relationship having so much family money . It's the sort of sum hard to make again if it's lost .

You are taking about new love and quite rightly this seems cold and clinical but unfortunately a lot of marriages end in divorce and acrimonious ones at that .

There is so much rubbish on her about pre nups. You are NOT allowed legally to have one unless you have independent advice on it so so much for getting one done and then saying you were ill advised or using the same lawyer 🙄😂 . They have to include all the nitty gritty bits as I said before and it is the same with a will. As someone said if this were a woman it would be go for it. There is nothing wrong with this . My H had the hardest time convincing his solicitor that he did not want to take half of my assets if we divorced and vice versa. It just all falls under practicalities that any sensible person does and is advised by financial advisers too. It's nothing to do with romance.

@Iwonder08

You are approaching it all wrong and too emotional. Deploying tears is really not the right way. Tell you lawyer what do you want and not want in the prenup and get the legal document the way you want it.

I agree with this. You are taking it as some sort of insult to your morals or values. It’s not, it’s a legal and financial document. If you have been divorced already you should understand that.

Yes of course no one goes into a marriage planning for it to fail. No one buys a car planning for it to crash or breakdown . But we still buy insurance and breakdown cover.

Lots of people have health insurance but they are not planning to be ill or not look after their health.

Just talk to your solicitor and ask for the clauses you don’t like to be removed. You are making this more dramatic than it needs to be.

I had a prenuptial agreement with my now ex-husband. He brought no assets and I brought 7 figure sums. We married in London. We had a good marriage but it broke down after 7 years. We remain friends and the divorce did not involve solicitors as we did it ourselves. I knew him a few years before the marriage and I wanted out of the marriage as we get on better living apart. We both had independent legal advice, and while prenuptial agreements are not enforceable, judges do include them in decision making where there is a divorce dispute. Their power is weaker when there is a dramatic change of circumstances during the marriage affecting the spouse with less assets. For example, they are injured and cannot work anymore. While you maybe loved up now, you do have to plan for your future. You should give careful consideration as to if you want to marry with a high income. I would never marry again, whatever the financial circumstances of my would-be spouse. I wouldn't risk my assets on an uncertain outcome (people change) no matter how loved up I was, as I see my money as heading towards my children one day. I have seen too many horrible separations and divorces amongst friends and colleagues over the years, with costly outcomes.

I don't understand (maybe this has been answered) why you need to get married?

You've been here before, you know it's likely to end in divorce (waaayyy more likely going into it with pre-nups)

Isn't it more sensible to just co-habit? (you can have the wedding, just don't sign the papers!)

If you decide to have more children together can't the lawyers get involved at this point? (Honestly the idea of lawyers being involved at any point in a relationship is the point my fanny shuts up shop for good for the one instructing lawyers, but everyone's different)

Getting married with a back ground of distrust and hostility including his family sounds like a recipe for disaster.

BTW congrats on your amazing salary!

@weddingbelles

Thanks again for everyone’s input, it’s been so helpful.

In my opinion DP's lawyer has just done the lawyer thing of making this overly contentious where It doesn’t need to be- it should have been clear when we engaged them (this is on my DP, he’s not good at things like this) that the ring fencing of the capital was the only thing needed, yet they’ve gone off into all kinds of detail, like any gifts/inheritance/bonuses received in the marriage (for the both of us) also being ring fenced,which I understand benefits me as I work for a business where I have shares and shouldu be entitled to a big payout in a few years, but I would see this as family money, not just mine. Same with inheritance, my family is not as well off as his but I stand to inherit in the hundreds of thousands should the worst happen. I would see this as shared inheritance.

We’ve come to an agreement that I will sign to ringfence the family money only, nothing entering the marriage for the both of us after we wed, and the prenup will expire after three years or on the birth of our first child - whichever comes sooner. This, I am happy with, and I feel covers the early part of our marriage as well as my own interests further down the line.

My DP has been totally understanding throughout - he's in agreement that his own solicitor has been heavy handed and has approached this from the viewpoint of a really high net worth individual, so totally surplus to requirements for what we need.

So he benefits from your higher earnings - but you don't benefit from his savings?

He's onto a winner there.

Can you make it more equal by insisting you both bring in equal salaries or you get to ring-fence your higher part of your salary so you can save up your own £500k?

Bet he's not so keen on that.....you know, being fair.

I’m sorry OP, that would upset me a lot too. It sounds to me like the lawyers have done way more than they were asked to do. Got carried away trying to protect their client basically.

Who hired the lawyer? If it’s your DP, then your DP should tell the lawyer to stop going over the top, and (if its what you want) change this into a short document making a statement re pre-marriage savings, and nothing else.

If not your DP, then whoever hired the lawyer should mind their own business and get lost.

If I was you, I would say to DP that this has all gone too far. That marriage is a risk, it’s a risk for both of us, the woman can eg die in childbirth or have all sorts of childbirth related physical problems - we can’t erase risk from marriage, and the whole concept of marriage starts with mutual trust - I’m uncomfortable with the whole idea of a prenup and this issue is ruining what should be an incredibly romantic and happy time for us. It is reasonable not to want to discuss a future divorce in the run up to your wedding! DP created this issue, tell DP to sort it out.

If you were in a country where prenups are normal then you wouldn’t mind this. But you aren’t. You’re presumably in Britain? In Britain prenups aren’t part of our culture and it’s ok for you to not want one. You don’t have to sign the document you’ve been given. In fact, no one should ever sign a document produced by someone else’s lawyer without having their own lawyer check and amend it 😬 the first lawyer will always ask for too much for their client, that’s what they do… But that legal practice is counter-productive in the run up to a wedding 🤦‍♀️

You could perhaps sign a statement saying neither of you are entitled to savings brought by the other to the marriage?

Would I sign that? I would not. Marriage to me included weddings vows that said “all that I have, I share with you.” I meant it. I know your DP is wealthier than you, but that doesn’t mean your DP can’t share his wealth with his spouse in exactly the same way as higher earners have done for millennia 🧐

If marriage isn’t pooling resources to start something new then what is it?!

@Thewindwhispers

In fact, no one should ever sign a document produced by someone else’s lawyer without having their own lawyer check and amend it 😬 the first lawyer will always ask for too much for their client, that’s what they do

Did you not read that this doesn't happen in pre ups?

Where did you meet this dreamboat?

I think you know that you are worth more than this.

[quote Ellie56]@weddingbelles

I would refuse to sign quite frankly. Why should he take advantage of your present higher earnings and future earning potential while ringfencing his capital? That seems grossly unfair and I would say so.

Tell future PILS to butt out. If they have given this money, they have no right to try and control what happens to it.[/quote]
This.

Is it somehow fair for him to ring fence his capital, but when you start making way above his earnings that has to now be shared out equally? This is ridiculous and you'd be stupid to agree to it, and I hope a judge would throw it out of court on the basis that you'd essentially been tricked and not realised the implications.

Do you get to have some of the ring fenced money once you give up some of your earning potential to be pregnant with and give birth to his children?
Does the ring fencing only last say the first few years?

What if you have his kids, forgoing months of work in which you could have earned yourself promotions, then get cancer and had to quit work, then your husband divorces you. He gets £500k and you get what?
What if the cancer was advanced because you had to delay medication because you were pregnant with his kids?
Oh he still gets £500k does he while you risk life and limb?

If my son was to enter into a marriage with someone who had children, and had 500k assets , honestly, I would encourage him to have a prenup. He’s already been well and truly fucked over in the past and I would hope that he would do everything necessary to protect himself in the future.
In the early days of married life most think it’s going to be happy every after , the stats for divorce speak for themselves . I’m in my 50’s, 80% of my friends are divorced .
I understand you are upset , I understand why. I’m sure you would never plan to fuck him over in the case of a divorce , but look on here, people are angry and hurt during a split , good will and decency are often the first to fly out the window . I’m not saying you would behave like that , I’m just saying people do. You don’t know what possible events could lead to a split and how you would feel at the time .
If when you have kids together you agree to revisit the prenup then that should make you feel a little happier , as you can insist on less of a tight grip on the finances .

@Ohwhathaveidonenow

Tell him exactly this.

But shame on his family for (presumably) celebrating your wedding, while trusting you so little and valuing cold hard cash above all else.

Oh come on...when in the flush of getting married all couples are very trusting. His family are a little more wise and know that feeling won't stay in the unfortunate case of divorce.

My extended family both gave huge cash sums to their children to move and upgrade houses. Guess what when the divorce came in both cases, the wives walked off with it all. They learnt from that next time around and put legal provisions in place. The spouses get to enjoy it but they know if they walk out of the door the only money they can access is the money accrued during the marriage, not any if the family money. I will do exactly the same for my children if hopefully I'm able to

Divorce rate in the UK is about 33%, so no "most" marriages do not end in divorce, as a PP asserted.

If I had given my DC a large sum and they were worried about sharing it with their prospective spouse, I'd advise them not to get married rather than to draw up a prenup.

@ironorchids "Do you get to have some of the ring fenced money once you give up some of your earning potential to be pregnant with and give birth to his children?
Does the ring fencing only last say the first few years?"

The person gifting it doesn't have to rely on a prenup. They can put it in trust or have a document describing it as a loan until death (drawn up by a lawyer) which will protect it. In fact there was a case in The Times last month when sadly the son died and his wife was furious that she had to pay back the money that the parents had provided to buy his house (before they married). She didn't know about it and was complaining bitterly despite having already moved on and remarried!!!!

I for one and glad there are now ways to stop the ridiculous divorce settlements in the country and make getting married sometimes an absolute windfall...and yes generally for women. You have to ask why we are the divorce and litigation capital of the world

This came up in our family recently when my b’n’l was given a large lump sum for his house with the condition he had a pre nup to protect it. So it made me think about how I would feel about it. We’ve been married 20 odd years and I think if someone had of asked me in the beginning pre wedding to sign a prenup I would have been very upset. But I feel different now. I adore my hubby but if his family said can you sign a piece of paper saying you won’t lay claim to family money I would in a heart beat. People do break up and people do get emotional and nasty. If I was you I would ask them to amend the prenup to cover the £500k but stop with all the other clauses as it’s making you feel upset.
I went to a finical workshop once that said parents can put money in a trust that their child can use for real estate purchases but this money can not be split with future partners maybe that’s another option.

I think that ringfencing the £500k for a period of time is reasonable but with time lots of things change; illness, family issues, job losses ,career changes all bring inequalities of various sorts which can't be measured in finance. The higher earner shouldn't feel they are entitled to more because they work in a well paid industry while the other partner, nurse , social worker or what ever who has an equally 'important' job is penalised.I would agree to a time limited ring fencing but would hate it . Something similar has happened to a young person I know. It has dented their trust , particularly in their in laws. A friend of mine lent their DS a large deposit and kept an interest in the property some how for some years before eventually handing the remainder over ;this was a way round it for them.

I must admit I'm put off marriage by the thought that I'd have to sell my lovely house which I own outright in the event of divorce because it becomes an asset of marriage. It would definitely put me off marrying someone with no or less assets. A prenup saying you cant touch my house if we divorce would work for me. Likewise the initial prenup agreement sounds reasonable. All the add ons are rude

@99pronouns

I don't understand (maybe this has been answered) why you need to get married?

You've been here before, you know it's likely to end in divorce (waaayyy more likely going into it with pre-nups)

Isn't it more sensible to just co-habit? (you can have the wedding, just don't sign the papers!)

If you decide to have more children together can't the lawyers get involved at this point? (Honestly the idea of lawyers being involved at any point in a relationship is the point my fanny shuts up shop for good for the one instructing lawyers, but everyone's different)

Getting married with a back ground of distrust and hostility including his family sounds like a recipe for disaster.

BTW congrats on your amazing salary!

Statistically second marriages are a lot less likely to end in divorce - I've been single for many years and spent a lot of that time working on myself, working through why the first marriage failed, and ensuring I am prepared emotionally and mentally for a lifetime relationship. Plus, we would like to have a child, and I know (per MN advice if nothing else!) that for my interests to be protected in this situation we need to be married

Not sure if this has been asked but you say your savings have gone on the wedding, has he contributed?

@ironorchids

Do you get to have some of the ring fenced money once you give up some of your earning potential to be pregnant with and give birth to his children?
Does the ring fencing only last say the first few years?*
*
This is what I will agree to - three years, at which point I really will outearn him by a lot, or when we have a child - whichever comes first.

Also @99pronouns thank you for the congrats - all the long slog of single parenting while working three jobs has bloody finally paid off!

@Fatgalslim

Not sure if this has been asked but you say your savings have gone on the wedding, has he contributed?

We have contributed equally to the wedding as we do in life - before we moved in he actually paid for more than me as he had more disposable income, so no worries there! He's always been very generous with me and the kids

Sorry if you’ve already answered this, but does your DP already have control of the money or is your future FIL holding it over his head and forcing the prenup?

Because if he already has the money, your DP should be telling his father to wind his neck in and scrapping the whole prenup.

I very much doubt you’d be awarded half of that pot anyway, if the marriage was very short and you’d not had kids yet. Especially not when you’ve got the earning potential you’re talking about.

I think more people should do this
Marriage IS a legal and financial contract so I don’t see why people can’t put more thought into it and whet happens in the event of a split
Bring open and honest in this way does not in my view mean people are planning for failure from the outset.
And despite saying you wouldn’t take pre marital assets if you divorce - well many people change their minds and do so he’s 100% right to try to ring fence that imo

If your pils want to leave money to their son then it is entirely up to him how he shares it with his wife. bugger all to do with pil.

honestly, i think pils are after your money and you should ruuuuuuuuuuun, OP.