H ignored choking son

[whatdidIimarry]

I was halfway out of the front door carrying something large and bulky when I heard our 8 year old cry out, clearly frightened and distressed, ' HE''S CHOKING! HE'S CHOKING!' And I could hear our five year old making a choking sound. I wasn't too alarmed as they were in the (quite small) back room with H who is his work's first aider so I knew he could handle it, giving me two seconds to put what I was carrying down. But as I did this I heard my son again, clearly frightened out of his wits, 'HELP! HELP! HE'S CHOKING! HE'S CHOKING!' , I could still hear the younger one making choking noises and I couldn't hear H as all so I ran to the room they were in. And there I saw five year old on all fours, face down and with a piece of regurgitated orange in front of him, and our 8 year sitting rigid and upright with eyes the size of saucers looking utterly distressed and terrified.

And there is H literally sitting at his desk, just one metre away from the five year old, with his back to the kids, doing some work on his laptop.

I comfort the kids and then say to H, who has still not turned around at all, and clearly has not at any point, and say, ' did you not hear eldest? Did you not hear how frightened he was?' 'I just thought they were messing around' said H. So I repeat, ' Answer me honestly, could you genuinely not hear in his voice how terrified he was?' ' No', said H, I thought they were messing around'.

Any, any fool would have heard that this was a child who was genuinely alarmed and frightened. How good an actor does he think our 8 year old is? And how good an actor does he think our five year old is, that he can mimic choking like that? And why wouldn't you even turn to look to check?

That's not normal is it? I have long realised that H has serious issues with a very limited ability to empathise with others, but this has shocked me, and I didn't realise there was much left about him that could shock me. Why on earth wouldn't a normal protective parenting instinct have kicked in?!

I think there's something seriously wrong with your dh too. I am also married to a similar man and I feel like I cannot divorce him until my dc is old enough to manage themselves as the thought of leaving them alone with him is terrifying. My dh also has zero empathy for anything and zero common sense to the extent it's unbearable because I have to compensate for it, but it's also downright dangerous on occasion.

I have no advice other than I'm sorry you married this man. For me I'd been brought up by a similar man so I didn't see the signs until my dc was born and my eyes opened in a way I couldn't see before because I wanted to protect my dc but realised pretty early on that meant protecting them from my dh ever being in charge.

You know what, I know that this simplistic armchair condemnatory announcement makes you feel good about yourself, lording it over someone else has that effect for some people - my husband gets this kick too - but really, you know and I know that there is nothing I can do to stop H from having contact with his own children. Whether I stay or go he will continue to have contact with his children, and if I try to stop it, the courts will order it. I can't 'keep them safe' in the way you demand. You know it, I know it, but I have to live with that and you don't and you clearly lack the emotional intelligence to even begin to imagine what that feels like.

Attacking me may make you feel better but it cannot change that reality.

And on that, I am off. I've written to the assessment team.

Hope you continue to feel good about yourself Spaniels. My H does too and he has about as much reason to as you do.

Well said, whatdidIimarry.

Trying to understand someone's behaviour isn't the same thing as endorsing it or making excuses for it. This simplistic way of thinking isn't helpful at all.

STBXP lacks empathy in some situations. And he really struggles to admit it if he's in the wrong, in fact he's terrified of being in the wrong. He tells himself lies so he doesn't have to face it when he's in the wrong - even for something minor.

But I'm not surprised he avoids it - if he does admit he's in the wrong, particularly with anything to do with the DC, he falls into a pit of despair and anger, where he thinks he's a failed human being and talks about killing himself.

There is no middle ground, where he sees he makes a mistake, apologises and adjusts his behaviour accordingly. He's either right, or claiming to be suicidal.

I can't work out if he's on the spectrum or if it's his upbringing. His family are similar in many ways, but as ASD is hereditary, that doesn't tell me much either way.

I do want to understand why he's like this as he's not going to stop being the father of our DC, is he?

That sounds like vulnerable/covert narcissism, the inability to accept responsibility is a defence for deep shame and self loathing.

@JudyGemstone

That sounds like vulnerable/covert narcissism, the inability to accept responsibility is a defence for deep shame and self loathing.

interesting, thanks JudyGemstone. the inability to accept responsibility is a defence for deep shame and self loathing. really chimes.

However I just looked up a definition for vulnerable/covert narcissism and it doesn't quite fit him.

This is what I found:

• Having a sense of self-importance or grandiosity - No
• Experiencing fantasies about being influential, famous, or important - not as far as I know, however he doesn't want to be "insignificant"
• Exaggerating their abilities, talents, and accomplishments - Yes, he does this
• Craving admiration and acknowledgment - not as far as I can tell
• Being preoccupied with beauty, love, power, or success - no.
• Having an exaggerated sense of being unique - I don't think do
• Believing that the world owes them something - no
• Exploiting others to get what they want (no matter how it impacts others) - no
• Lacking empathy toward others - yes

He turns every conversation topic to himself. He does that thing, where you say something and he replies by sharing an anecdote about himself.

He seems unable to have a conversation that centres someone else, as in actually doesn't know how to do it and is baffled and cross when I've tried to explain this to him in the past. He digs his heels in and tells me it's normal conversation to relate things to yourself. And I mean, it is - up to a point. But there comes a point at which it's a distraction from what you were actually trying to talk about.

He also finds it very difficult to talk about logistics or plans if they're not solid. Which means I have to ask him lots of questions to find out what his parameters are so I can plan around him and he gets really annoyed with this as he can't see the point of it.

An example - we're visiting family and I'm dependent on him to give me a lift to my friend's house, who lives not too far away. I'd like to visit her, so I'm trying to find out what days that might be possible, and he says he doesn't know. As far as he's concerned, that should be the end of the conversation.

But I need to give my friend some idea at least. So I ask him questions about when he wants to drive home at the earliest, what other things his family might want us to be here for etc to get an idea which days are out, at least. He find this annoying and "circular" and says he doesn't understand the point - and it very nearly became a row.

He never, ever asks how I feel about anything. He can be really caring, but he expresses it practically.

My mum is autistic and also never asks about how I feel. I suppose this may be why it took me so long to realise he never wants to know what's going on in my mind.

I would like to understand it. I think he would too as I know he's spent time trying to diagnose himself online, however he usually does this when he's feeling down, and tends to come up with the worst sounding conditions and uses them as a stick to beat himself with, which isn't at all productive.

All this may make him sound awful but it isn't the full picture at all! Although he lacks empathy, he certainly has a lot of sympathy, thinks nothing of putting himself out to help others in genuinely useful, practical ways. He's generous and kind.

Having spent a lot of time around autistic family members, I now reckon empathy is an umbrella term covering a lot of things that we don't really understand properly. You can lack empathy as in not being able to instinctively know what others are feeling - but still be genuinely a very caring person.

@Hope54321

I didn’t mean that in an offensive way at all. Sorry if it comes across that way.

You are offensive. Very.

Hmmm makes me wonder, I recall once on a family holiday my sister nearly drowned in a swimming pool. She was 3/4 I was 6/7. I could see she about to drown and dived in to get her. I was taken aback by how she nearly drowned me in a panic holding onto my head and pushing it down. Luckily I was a strong enough swimmer and got us both out. My dad just watched on as if nothing untoward was going on at all…

A couple of years ago baby ds began choking whilst I was at dm house , when I couldn’t dislodge it I asked her to call 999 while I continued trying. She ignored me. I asked again. I screamed at her call an ambulance. She did nothing, she then walked over and smirked and said ‘he’s not choking’

By this point I had to virtually tip him upside down and was hitting his back and shouting at her , begging her to call 999. Just as I was about to give up and put him down to call 999 myself the bit of food flew out he had literally gone blue.
She looked at me and smirked again and said ‘see he’s fine you just overreacted’

"Although he lacks empathy, he certainly has a lot of sympathy, thinks nothing of putting himself out to help others in genuinely useful, practical ways".

Am not surprised to read this. Image is all important to such men. Am sure his work colleagues think he is great.

Generally speaking abusive people can and often do come across as quite plausible to those in the outside world.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

"Although he lacks empathy, he certainly has a lot of sympathy, thinks nothing of putting himself out to help others in genuinely useful, practical ways".

Am not surprised to read this. Image is all important to such men. Am sure his work colleagues think he is great.

Generally speaking abusive people can and often do come across as quite plausible to those in the outside world.

Sounds exactly like my exh, which is in part why no one believed me when I told them why I left.

falalalalalalalallama

Has your mother been formally diagnosed (i.e by a suitably qualified professional person) as being on the ASD spectrum?.

Re your comment:-
"Having spent a lot of time around autistic family members, I now reckon empathy is an umbrella term covering a lot of things that we don't really understand properly. You can lack empathy as in not being able to instinctively know what others are feeling - but still be genuinely a very caring person."

While many people with autism may appear to lack empathy and sympathy, it is not the case for all people with autism. For those who struggle with displaying appropriate empathetic responses, the reasons may relate more to social communication issues than a lack of underlying emotional response.

Empathy is a two-dimensional emotion. It is experienced both on a cognitive level— recognizing and understanding another’s mental state—and on an affective or emotional level—feeling the emotions of others. In those with autism, these experiences can sometimes seem at odds with one another.

Research shows people with autism may struggle with cognitive empathy because they are unable to recognize and name emotions based on facial expressions. Eye scan studies found people with autism tend to look at the periphery of a face rather than pay attention to the eyes and mouth, where emotions are typically displayed.

However, while cognitive empathy can be lower in people with autism, affective empathy—which is based on instincts and involuntary responses to the emotions of others—can be strong and overwhelming. In fact, newer research suggests that some people with autism may actually feel other people's emotions more intensely.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

"Although he lacks empathy, he certainly has a lot of sympathy, thinks nothing of putting himself out to help others in genuinely useful, practical ways".

Am not surprised to read this. Image is all important to such men. Am sure his work colleagues think he is great.

Generally speaking abusive people can and often do come across as quite plausible to those in the outside world.

This isn't that, though.

I've had lost experience of abusive men, sadly, and I totally know what you mean - grand gestures that people will be eternally grateful for, making sure people know they're a Good Guy™.

DP's not like that at all. He's a what-you-see-is-what-you-get person. He doesn't change his behaviour between public or private, or depending who's he's talking to. There is no mask.

He's a helpful person, he genuinely cares about others, it's in his nature. But he doesn't understand other people's feelings.

My line in the sand (and one of the main reasons we're splitting up) is because he shouts - at me and the DC. He doesn't understand the impact it has on us. It's really hard to get him beyond the idea that because HE doesn't mean in in a bad way, it therefore isn't bad.

For an otherwise intelligent man to be so simplistic is infuriating! But it does remind me a lot of our autistic DS, who struggles with metaphors, for example, and finds it frustrating that his English teachers don't understand that he genuinely doesn't understand.

Which is why I think my DP is neurodiverse, not abusive.

Abusive men are shouty and abusive behind closed doors and put a fake face on for the public.

But, DP genuinely doesn't understand the impact he has on others. He doesn't behave any differently in public. I've seen him walk into the middle of a soft play, and shout at the top of his lungs for DS to come. He was mortified when I finally managed to get it through to him that this would scare the other children - and mums. He just saw it as simply as - it was loud in there, so he needed to be louder to get DS's attention. And as HE didn't mean anything bad by it, why would anyone else think badly of him?

He was totally oblivious to the impact a large, loud, shouting man had on the room - and of all the mums looking over to see who was shouting and making a quick assessment to see whether he was a risk or not.

And he was upset when he realised people would be thinking badly of him. But he really struggled with this, it was a VERY long conversation with him digging his heels in that he did nothing wrong, before we got to this point of understanding.

@thedancingbear - sorry but where did I mention autism in my post. I didn’t mention it once actually

@AttilaTheMeerkat

falalalalalalalallama

Has your mother been formally diagnosed (i.e by a suitably qualified professional person) as being on the ASD spectrum?.

Re your comment:-
"Having spent a lot of time around autistic family members, I now reckon empathy is an umbrella term covering a lot of things that we don't really understand properly. You can lack empathy as in not being able to instinctively know what others are feeling - but still be genuinely a very caring person."

While many people with autism may appear to lack empathy and sympathy, it is not the case for all people with autism. For those who struggle with displaying appropriate empathetic responses, the reasons may relate more to social communication issues than a lack of underlying emotional response.

Empathy is a two-dimensional emotion. It is experienced both on a cognitive level— recognizing and understanding another’s mental state—and on an affective or emotional level—feeling the emotions of others. In those with autism, these experiences can sometimes seem at odds with one another.

Research shows people with autism may struggle with cognitive empathy because they are unable to recognize and name emotions based on facial expressions. Eye scan studies found people with autism tend to look at the periphery of a face rather than pay attention to the eyes and mouth, where emotions are typically displayed.

However, while cognitive empathy can be lower in people with autism, affective empathy—which is based on instincts and involuntary responses to the emotions of others—can be strong and overwhelming. In fact, newer research suggests that some people with autism may actually feel other people's emotions more intensely.

I was talking about my DS (formally diagnosed), my uncle (formally diagnosed), my sister (not formally diagnosed by she suspects she's on the spectrum and I agree) as well as my mother - not formally diagnosed but I'd bet my house she's autistic, like her brother and her grandson - and possibly her daughter - but not ADHD like me (formally diagnosed).

Autism is not psychopathy. A psychopath will let their child choke to death while their other child screams for help. Someone with autism won't (unless they are also a psychopath).

I'm actually shocked by some of the ignorant comments on this thread.

@beastlyslumber

Autism is not psychopathy. A psychopath will let their child choke to death while their other child screams for help. Someone with autism won't (unless they are also a psychopath).

I'm actually shocked by some of the ignorant comments on this thread.

No, autism isn't psychopathy.

But not all autistic people are the same. Does autism affect some autistic people so that they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between listening to their child scared that their brother is choking and that same child messing around?

Possibly. I'm pretty sure the autistic people I know would be able to tell this difference. But that doesn't mean it's true of all autistic people, does it?

Psychopathy would be knowing that the child is choking and doing nothing. I don't think that's what's suggested here. What's suggested is that the OP's DH couldn't tell they were being serious (if we are to take him at his word). And that he didn't think to doubt his interpretation. But that he would have reacted if he'd known. All of this is shocking, but not the same thing as actively ignoring a child you know to be in immediate danger.

Is psychopathy the only reason someone might not be able to tell the difference? I doubt it.

There is a possibility that the DH did know the child was choking and didn't care. Now that would be psychopathy and not autism.

Psychopathy would be knowing that the child is choking and doing nothing. I don't think that's what's suggested here.

Did you read the OP? That's exactly what's being suggested here.

@whatdidIimarry When he shows normal caring emotions he is acting.....

Whenever narcissistic/sociopathic individuals who lack empathy have been investigated by police for any reason, they have almost always come across things such as Google searches for how to show emotion in sad situations, how to pretend you care etc or have been found to have asked others these kind of questions. This is so they can pretend to be 'normal' and evade questioning from those around them.

When is his assessment OP?

Firstly, it's very easy to be a first aider at work. I'm one. Have been for years. I do an annual first aid at work course, do my little test at the end of get a new shiny card to keep in my purse. Have literally never used any of the knowledge other than putting on plasters and filling in accident books. So just because he's a first aider at work does not mean he has ever had to react to any kind of emergency.

Secondly, you can be a selfish, ignorant arsehole and be NT. Everyone assuming the DH is Austistic, ND, deaf etc are just looking to excuse his behaviour. There isn't one type of ND or NT behaviour. In this case, regardless of what his assessment comes back saying, his behaviour put his kids lives at risk and (to me) it read like he didn't really acknowledge his part in this either. If OP left him he would get more unsupervised time with the kids and could put them in more danger.

Thirdly, you can't just switch off love. Most people can't just end marriages there and then and walk out the house or boot out their spouse. Financially, emotionally, physically etc there are always pull factors making people stay. People need to understand that ending a marriage is not something you can or should just do.

@beastlyslumber

Psychopathy would be knowing that the child is choking and doing nothing. I don't think that's what's suggested here.

Did you read the OP? That's exactly what's being suggested here.

Yes, I read the OP. If the OP's DH is to be believed, he heard the children, assess the situation, decided they were messing around, didn't bother to turn round to check.

The end result of this is the same - had the child not managed to cough up the piece of food and the OP not been there, the outcome doesn't bear thinking about.

However, there is a difference between a person knowing a child is choking and not bothering to do anything, and a person deciding a child isn't choking and not realising they need to check in case that's wrong.

The first is utterly callous. That person doesn't care if the child dies.

In the second example, the person isn't leaving the child to choke, deliberately. Their reaction isn't normal and this incident has shown how dangerous their way of thinking is, that they were so sure the child was OK, they didn't even think to check, despite the obvious potential harm if their assessment was wrong (which is was). In terms of the DH's motivation - and how to deal with this, this distinction does matter.

Because, if it was my DH, if he genuinely left the child to choke, then that would be the end of any relationship or friendship and would run a mile from this psychopath.

But, if it's the second, it would be the end of leaving the DC with the DH unsupervised, but I would see this as akin to a disability on his behalf, not psychopathy. And that matters.

I guess we'll never know but my speculation would be that he does have a personality order but also has a processing disorder of some kind and that's why he's hard to classify.

Disorder

This is so sad to read. It also very much reminds me of my ex husband. There were many many occasions where he didn't react or appear to respond normally. This involved every aspect of his life, counting me and the children. It was very very confusing at times.
What I would say, from my experience the situation became a lot worse when we separated. I think it was because he didn't have me there to guide him.

It has ultimately resulted in him putting the children at risk and now can not see the children.
What was he like before children?

I have no idea why you're defending the husband here @falalalalalalalallama.You proffer the idea that he is "disabled" rather than a psychopath, and for some reason you consider that an important distinction, but in the real world it doesn't make any material difference to the fact that he abandoned his terrified child while the other was choking to death.

Whatever his inner state of being at that moment, he is a dangerous man who cannot ever be in sole care of his own children. Who cares what he was thinking? Really?

I'm so sick of the continued focus on the perpetrators of harm, so many reasons and excuses, so much sympathy and forgiveness. Whenever anyone posts here about something horrendous their husband has done, it's always 'oh no, poor man, is he autistic? Is he maybe slightly deaf, what could you do to understand him better'.

Psychopathy may be rare but it's real, narcissism is real and not at all uncommon, many people are abusive, many parents traumatise and hurt their children... Can we not just focus on keeping children and vulnerable people safe and stop caring so much about the fucking arseholes who cause them harm.

Thanks everyone.

And especial thanks to those sharing their accounts of having children with similar men, and for sharing how you chose to stay because you feared for your children until they got older. Like a pp said, I know he cannot take care of their emotional wellbeing either.
It is absolutely exhausting living with him. But I think, like others, waiting till the children are older to separate is likely to be what I have to do.

@marriedtoafunsponge LIke you, my H is very similar to my father.
I deliberately tried to choose someone who was not like my father, and thought that DH wasn't, but can see now clearly that he is in his inability to understand other's point of view or emotions and his dismissal of other people's feelings when they conflict with his own internal drivers (to be right or to achieve what he wants or to feel valued and appreciated).

@falalalalalalalallama
vulnerable/convert narcissism
Having a sense of self-importance or grandiosity - Yes!

• Experiencing fantasies about being influential, famous, or important -Yes, have been signs of this
• Exaggerating their abilities, talents, and accomplishments - Yes!
• Craving admiration and acknowledgment - Yes! Even when the kids were toddlers he would become angry if they did not respond as he wanted to his attempts to comfort them if they fell. Their 'rejection' made him angry, even when its normal toddler thing (when they were younger) of saying, ' NO, I want mummy!'
• Being preoccupied with beauty, love, power, or success - not sure.
• Having an exaggerated sense of being unique - I think so
• Believing that the world owes them something - Yes! Certainly thinks I owe him something
• Exploiting others to get what they want. Yes!
• Lacking empathy toward others - Yes!

And what you said about every conversation being about him! Yes! But maybe in a different way. If I am trying to talk about how something affects me or the kids or getting him to modify what he does in some way, or get a decision on something to do with teh kids he CANNOT concentrate on the 'thing' under discussion. He can ONLY concentrate on how it is making him feel (bad, as he interprets all these conversations as an attack) and so all he replies with is about his feelings. He cannot concentrate on a conversation about me or kids or sorting something for me or kids, it always becomes about his feelings.
I try to deal with those things by text now to avoid an in-person row.

I can't describe how utterly unreasonable he is. Because how can you be reasonable when you can only concentrate on your own feelings and needs and you have a primary need to always be right?