Leaving husband or stay for the children?

[Mumof3confused]

I’ve NC for this.

The short story is, I have 3 kids (6, 8 and 10). Married 10 years, together 15, friends before that. Very lovely husband who pulls his weight around the house and very hands on dad.

The thing is, we are great friends but I can’t stand the thought of having sex with my husband anymore. It hasn’t been great ever since our first one was born and it has been getting progressively work. Different levels of sex drives, different wants, him asking me to do various things I don’t want (nothing awful but for example wants me to wear stockings etc occasionally even though I hate it). He has also been keeping tabs (actually keeping a record) of how often we have sex but only intercourse ‘counts’. Also keeping tabs on my cycle so he knows when he needs to have sex with me before having to wait a few days. He knows this drives me up the wall but did not actually stop keeping this record until I booked us a relationship counsellor. He also would comment about wanting sex every time he’d see me naked in the shower or walking past half dressed, only ever complimentary but actually this would make me feel a bit harassed. If he didn’t get sex for 3-4 days he’d get a bit tense/moody/struggle to sleep and even though he’d say nothing, I’d always know it’s because it’s been too long since the last time we did it. Also he does not seem to want to DIY it, it felt like a chore in the end or my responsibility. This has led to me losing all desire for him and in fact I don’t think I’ll be able to find it again, despite trying to work through things in counselling.

The other issue I have is that he leaves almost all ‘mental load’ responsibilities to me. He cannot organise, plan, fix, repair anything. When we need a new car I sort that, when something breaks at home it’s up to me to fix or get someone in to sort. Whether it’s something at home that needs fixing, finances, etc he categorically cannot do it. He’s just useless at it, so even if he takes on a task, I have to check he’s got it right. And no, it’s not just my standards being high. He actually seems incapable on so many levels, even though he has a good job with responsibilities so he clearly can do some things.

He does deal with things at home such as bins, some cleaning, a lot of the cooking and buying food, as well as the kids sporting clubs (organises, books, sometimes takes them). But in many ways he does feel like having an extra child because I can’t trust him to help me manage the mental load. I think he’s perhaps one of those people that is quite creative me very intelligent but lacks all common sense.

He also does not seem to notice me much, as in the real me. I’m independent and rarely need much emotional support but if/when I do, it’s like he doesn’t notice me or that I am struggling. He has also failed to stand up for me in situations involving certain family members of his in the past.

I realise I’m rambling but I’m writing in a rush. Basically I feel he needs to grow a bit of a back bone. Yes it’s my fault for marrying someone who I know is quite placid and laid back, certainly more of a metrosexual than manly man. But he was kind and I had not had many kind partners before him. And I knew he’d make a great dad, he’d be always faithful, and he adored me - he still does (or he adores the perfect image of me that he has created in his mind).

We have three children and people are often told on Mumsnet to stay for the sake of the children. I don’t know if that is something that is possible for us in the long run. I feel our relationship is not one of equals but I may be able to live with this. I could probably also live without sex but I don’t think he would agree to this. And even if he did, it seems like a slippery slope and the inevitable thing that would happen is one of us would eventually fall into an affair and then everything would blow up.

I am sure that I can’t fancy him again, regardless of how much therapy we have. I am repulsed by him. But he is an attractive man and I do believe that someone else would probably adore him and he does deserve that.

What would you do? Is it ok to leave a man who is kind, a good dad, pulls his weight around the house, but that you feel only friendly feelings for?

OP, your latest update answered all the questions. He is selfish, lazy and doesn't take care of you and prioritise his own needs and wants over your wellbeing. It is only natural you feel resentful and therefore not attracted to him

@PicsInRed I’m not wary or frightened. He’s really harmless and actually could do with growing a back bone.

@femfemlicious he has had an app keeping track of my period for years. It then transpired that he’s also been keeping tabs of intercourse and comparing it month for month, he then brought up the fact that we didn’t have enough sex and used that info as ‘proof’. He would only log intercourse, not if I pleasured him in other ways. Made me feel like crap and it took about 3 years of me saying I hate that he logs it, until he actually stopped when I had actually gone on sex strike and booked us into couples counselling. He thought buying me more and more sex toys was the answer to the problem.

We’ve been away, we’ve brought the toys, had long sessions in bed…I can manage it if I’ve had a drink. In fact that’s what I used to end up doing, have a drink and then sex got a bit easier. I actually find him off putting. I think there’s too much water under the bridge.

I know what you are saying, though. I’d have to do lots more than I already am. But I can’t keep him just because he fulfils a role as a part time housekeeper!

@Mumof3confused

As a small example, we have a sick child at home at the moment who is very demanding. I am out of my mind with work related stress. Husband has gone to play sport, leaving me to deal with child while trying to get through mountain of work.

Oh yeh, he's definitely a good dad who pulls his weight.

How much of your description of him as "lovely" etc etc is based on who you wish he was rather than the reality of who he shows himself to be?

@femfemlicious ok I’ll disregard that comment.

@ftw163532 well, I’ve reasoned re the sport that he needs his time and space too, away from
Work and responsibilities. I do also try to carve out time for myself whenever possible, for my mental health. He does deserve it, too. It’s just he doesn’t stop to think about whether it’s a good/reasonable timeline or not. We had to move to temporary accommodation for a while recently. On the day we were moving back (lockdown so the kids were around) he booked a sports slot in the middle of the day

I’m to embarrassed actually to tell my friends some of what’s been going on but I’ve been having panic attacks from the sheer overwhelm and also slipped into what I think was depression for a while. He didn’t understand me, or what I needed.

And he’s a nice guy. At least I have always thought so, and that I should be so grateful to have him.

A nice guy compared to previous abusive partners, but not when compared to the ordinary benchmark for being a decent-but-imperfect human being. (Grateful because he wasn't quite as bad as what happened in the past?)

I’ve never had a great relationship if I’m honest. I thought this was great, but I think now that it’s only ‘great’ when I bend over backwards to please him.

Which again is the result of his coercive controlling behaviour. This is the hallmark of abusive relationships, not whether the man hits you or not.

And more subtle abuse tends to appear 'great' by comparison to more overt or extreme abuse. Some of it is just relief at not experiencing the previous level of abuse, but that feeling is easily confused with positive feelings if you don't have a safe benchmark.

You went from abusive relationship to another abusive relationship only you couldn't see it because your perspective was warped.

Which is the legacy you leave your children to repeat in their own lives if you stay.

@Mumof3confused yes i understand now. Its just that what you described in your opening post wasnt too bad but what youve said later is really bad. Its a mess isnt it. You will have to divorce but its gonna be hard because you will probably have to pay him some money to keep the house since you are the higher earner. Also you will still have all the mental load and all the chores he currently does and less money. But hopefully you will have some days off .

It’s just he doesn’t stop to think about whether it’s a good/reasonable timeline or not.

No, he doesn't care.

You are making excuses for him. Stop.

@Mumof3confused

As a small example, we have a sick child at home at the moment who is very demanding. I am out of my mind with work related stress. Husband has gone to play sport, leaving me to deal with child while trying to get through mountain of work.

and he will come home later to stare at you longingly in the bath so you can end this hard day by feeling guilty that you didn't also make yourself available as a receptacle for him to ejaculate into.

Leave. I feel uncomfortable for you just reading about the log keeping and period tracking. So so creepy.

I left someone who had sex pestering as just one of his many charms, i have never looked back. Oh to climb into bed not feeling tense that he might initiate something when im utterly exhausted and just want to sleep. Its heaven.

Of course you are having panic attacks and low mood after being subjected to this level of coercive control for so long. It is a natural reaction to such circumstances.

Depression is actually a protective response to ongoing trauma as it makes you too demotivated and lethargic to do anything that might put you in harm's way again, e.g. by standing up for yourself (which would prompt the abuser to escalate to regain control).

It would be preferable to remove yourself from the situation, but given the complexity and your history you will need to support to re-learn how to be and how to adopt healthy interpersonal behaviours (including with him for coparenting rather than continuing the same pattern of submitting to his control but from a separate household) - for instance, to stop the constant narrative of excusing him and subjugating yourself, or accepting control, or feeling guilty for valuing yourself, or feeling you should be grateful for poor treatment...

It won't be easy but it will be worthwhile.

I’ll have to get some legal advice to see where I stand. He’s got a big pension though, no idea how to get details of that out of him.

I’m not sure my perspective is that warped. Ive seen two therapists (one on my own, one together who we’ve also had alone sessions with). What has come out of this is that he’s not seeing me for who I am and what I need, he’s in love with his ‘idea’ of me and can’t see me for who I am. Also, he has very low confidence and me not enjoying sex with him or having it as much as he craves, knocks his confidence further. He’s been avoiding taking on responsibilities for fear of getting it wrong. I hope that the therapists would have picked up on controlling behaviour and alerted me to this.

I’ve been feeling so guilty for wanting out. Should I not stay and work on it for the sake of the children and everything we’ve built together? Can I feel love and desire for him again? Leaving is easier said than done, although my gut feeling at the moment says leave.

@ftw163532 thank you. I am getting all the help I can currently afford. The depression came out of overwhelm with lockdown, work and a project which I won’t detail as I’ve already given a bit too much detail on here but it was a massively time consuming thing. And the lack of understanding or support, but then again he had work/homeschooling and most of the cooking to deal with so again I thought on balance this was reasonable that he could not also take on my emotions. It’s just I have not asked for it often over the years, but when I have, it has fallen on deaf ears.

The therapy is releasing your anger and you've every right to be angry

Honestly it does sound like you've had enough
You are not responsible for his self esteem... he is

I had a manchild, who also tracked my cycle and was a sex/porn obsessed douche bag, I asked him to leave. He did
Yes he was angry for a while and manipulative, but the day he left I danced around the house. It was and has been wonderful being a single parent. Because when you are doing everything and don't expect anyone to help it's fine, there's no anger or resentment. You feel uplifted and free

And yes you do get weekends off and yes they do have to start pulling their weight.

@ponkydonkey

The therapy is releasing your anger and you've every right to be angry

Honestly it does sound like you've had enough
You are not responsible for his self esteem... he is

I had a manchild, who also tracked my cycle and was a sex/porn obsessed douche bag, I asked him to leave. He did
Yes he was angry for a while and manipulative, but the day he left I danced around the house. It was and has been wonderful being a single parent. Because when you are doing everything and don't expect anyone to help it's fine, there's no anger or resentment. You feel uplifted and free

And yes you do get weekends off and yes they do have to start pulling their weight.

Yes! When he has been away, it has been easier because I can just get a clear plan in my head and get on with it. I think part of him is doing things around the house so that he can say ‘you can’t cope without me’ but we both know deep down that I can. I’m very capable, and this worries him I think. The kids are old enough to actually do much more themselves as well.

I’ve been feeling so guilty for wanting out. Should I not stay and work on it for the sake of the children and everything we’ve built together?

It seemed earlier that we were getting through to you re staying 'for the children' being damaging in the long run and leaving them with a lifetime of shit relationship modelling, but now seem to have fallen back into the 'what about the children' fallacy.

Can you maybe read back over the posts me and others shared (as adults who grew up as children in homes with parents who didn't have healthy, happy relationships) to remind yourself of the reality of this for your kids now and long term?

@youvegottenminuteslynn

My main worry has been the damage to their mental health if we were to separate.

Better to have a difficult time short term than leave them with a lifetime of poor relationship expectations.

Also, with their ages this is a pretty ideal time to do it - no big exam years etc to hide behind which many parents also use to delay leaving!

I cannot tell you how sad I am that I never realised couples can be properly in love, super supportive, cheerlead each other, be absolute equals, be affectionate and playful etc - I thought that you pick someone who won't cheat on you or be abusive and that's the best you can hope for so you just stay with them.

Took me all of my 20s to realise how brilliant a relationship can be. How equal they can be. I'm early 30s now and only now in my first really healthy relationship following a string of 3/4 (including abusive ones unfortunately) that were missing the bits i never saw growing up.

It would have been far more beneficial to see my mum being single or meeting someone new after being single for a while, in comparison to the poor relationship modelling I lived with.

A reminder of the effect on kids.

@youvegottenminuteslynn I’m on board with this but also, if you read on relationship websites it seems to always say ‘the right thing to do is to stay and work on it’ if there is no abuse. If there’s a chance we could make it work, we could communicate better, he could behave differently. He is willing to do ‘anything’. Although my gut says it won’t get better I feel guilty for not really wanting to try anymore.

You have a lot of replies but thought I'd add one more!

I had this type of relationship until 4 years ago when we broke up. Once you get that ick with someone it is near impossible to shake. while you might think it seems mad to leave someone because you don't want sex with them, there is usually a deeper reason why.

It's hard, especially with children, but I actually feel much less stressed. Yes I do all of the cooking, cleaning, working and life admin in my house, but I don't have the resentment. I do it because I chose to.

I also didn't want my son to grow up thinking it's ok to expect this of a girlfriend or wife later in life.

@stickymarshmallow

You have a lot of replies but thought I'd add one more!

I had this type of relationship until 4 years ago when we broke up. Once you get that ick with someone it is near impossible to shake. while you might think it seems mad to leave someone because you don't want sex with them, there is usually a deeper reason why.

It's hard, especially with children, but I actually feel much less stressed. Yes I do all of the cooking, cleaning, working and life admin in my house, but I don't have the resentment. I do it because I chose to.

I also didn't want my son to grow up thinking it's ok to expect this of a girlfriend or wife later in life.

Thank you, I appreciate everyone’s responses here! It’s so hard not being able to talk to a close friend about it. The therapists don’t give their opinion.

You are right about the deeper reasons and I have now got an understanding of what those are (I am essentially his mother). I suppose it’s just so much easier if someone has treated you badly by being aggressive or cheated - then you have this tangible reason that him and others will accept.

Well done for leaving and I’m so pleased to hear you’re happier.

you read on relationship websites it seems to always say ‘the right thing to do is to stay and work on it’ if there is no abuse

Firstly, coercive control is abuse so that wouldn't apply to your situation even if valid.

Secondly, you cannot stay to work on his behaviour, which is what this comes down to. So again, not applicable.

Thirdly, that sounds a highly biased summary of what is actually stated in the round.

I get the impression that there is an element of you hearing and giving greater weight to any comment that chimes with your sense of guilt about wanting to leave, whilst dismissing/minimising anything that does not fit with your guilt.

Like you only have space to receive/acknowledge one narrative and don't know what to do with any information you receive that contradicts it. Similar to when we feel down on ourselves and dismiss any compliments but hold onto criticism that supports our negative self-view.

Do you think that might be happening?

What qualifications and experience did your therapists have by the way? Counselling? Psychotherapy? Clinical psychologists? Trauma expertise? Family therapy model? There is a wide range of people operating under that term and unfortunately many of them have had no training in coercive control or trauma.

@ftw163532 it’s just something that takes time to get your head round after 20 odd years knowing my husband and having him in my life, one Mumsnet post isn’t going to put my head straight surely.

I struggle to see the coercive control, I’ve read up on what that means and I have not found it that applicable to my relationship (you will tell me I am blind which may be true).

Of course I want to make it all go away and have a happy family unit, for my children. Is that not quite normal also?

We are having therapy and he has recognised he needs to work on his self esteem separately so that is not just me ‘trying to work on him’. I assume the work is done in stages. I am separately trying to work on finding my voice.

Both therapists are very highly qualified. The couples counsellor is a relate therapist with many years experience working with relationship counselling and also with children. I think she’s good, I’ve had many aha moments. The 121 psychologist has many qualifications, part of me now wonders whether she is a better scholar than therapist though. I’ve paused her while we work through the couples counselling.

@ftw163532

you read on relationship websites it seems to always say ‘the right thing to do is to stay and work on it’ if there is no abuse

Firstly, coercive control is abuse so that wouldn't apply to your situation even if valid.

Secondly, you cannot stay to work on his behaviour, which is what this comes down to. So again, not applicable.

Thirdly, that sounds a highly biased summary of what is actually stated in the round.

I get the impression that there is an element of you hearing and giving greater weight to any comment that chimes with your sense of guilt about wanting to leave, whilst dismissing/minimising anything that does not fit with your guilt.

Like you only have space to receive/acknowledge one narrative and don't know what to do with any information you receive that contradicts it. Similar to when we feel down on ourselves and dismiss any compliments but hold onto criticism that supports our negative self-view.

Do you think that might be happening?

What qualifications and experience did your therapists have by the way? Counselling? Psychotherapy? Clinical psychologists? Trauma expertise? Family therapy model? There is a wide range of people operating under that term and unfortunately many of them have had no training in coercive control or trauma.

Well said, I agree.

Just the idea of years of having sex with someone that repulses you makes me cringe. If you can actually stay and endure that, you are stronger than me! You say he would do anything, but you also mentioned that you don't think he'd accept no sex at all, so not quite anything. I completely understand your misgivings about leaving. It will be horrible in the short term, but it sounds like you will be so much happier for it. If he is the decent man you say he is, he will still be there for the DC, so they won't lose out too much.

@Cloudyzebra I wouldn’t want to have sex with him again I think. And I don’t want a sexless marriage so there’s a stale mate. He’ll definitely be around for the kids whatever happens.

People are often told to leave on mumsnet, I’ve only rarely seen people say you should stay in an unhappy marriage.

Usually though they go back to the dh even after they’ve slept with half the town and spent their savings on gambling etc.

Op all of your questions about whether you should actually try to make it work - it takes two people to make a marriage work. Do you think he is ready to accept his behaviour is poor? That trying to coerce someone in to sex is wrong? That it is all shades of wrong to keep a diary of your cycle and when you had sex? Does he accept that he is lazy and expects you to do everything? Does he understand that you are a person in your own right, with needs and wants, that you don't just exist as someone for him to have sex with and to look after him?

Because unless he is ready to have a huge revelation and change character altogether, there is no way to make your marriage work.