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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
REignbow · 14/12/2021 16:30

@MondayTuesdayWednesday quite!

Also, from my recollection wasn’t she sending @Chopinandchampagne pictures of road kill before they moved?

I have received gifts that were not to my taste. But I would have thanked the person who sent it.

blahblah789 · 14/12/2021 16:31

I did. I think the dd behaviour is disgusting, no denying she’s money grabbing and needs to learn to be an adult and pay for herself. The amount of money they’ve been given without ever having to work for it is sickening.

My point is that I would feel exhausted knowing every decision I make is judged and looked down upon, and that everything I said or did would be analysed and picked apart. I have a parent who does that and I’m wary of being around them because I hate everything I say or do be used to further the character they’ve built up of me in their head when the distance means that they actually don’t know me at all.

I actually sympathise with op on the daughters behaviour, I just don’t think the entire situation is as one sided as every other poster does

Mummapenguin20 · 14/12/2021 16:34

Wow that message

GinIronic · 14/12/2021 16:35

Looks like a LB minion has found the thread.

billy1966 · 14/12/2021 16:35

OP,

So rude but most likely at his bidding.

How easily she hurts you.

I would play absolutely obtuse, and send a short message "Not to worry X, just pass them to a local charity".

OP, you really need to take the target off your head and stop allowing them to so easily take pot shots at you.

Stop any money.
Step away.
Be busy.
Be cheerful and brief in any contact and be very busy.
LB is an ugly character and occupys himself trying to manipulate you.

The longer you engage, the longer this will continue.

Stop feeding the fire.
Step away from this.

You think you can fix this.
You can't.
You really can't.
These are her choices for as long as they are her choices.
You can't change her choices.
Step away from their drama.
Deny them both the oxygen of hurting you.
Flowers

Cakeandcardio · 14/12/2021 16:36

I'm sorry I have no advice to give as I'm not sure what I would do in this situation but I can see you have had lots of advice already. I just didn't want to read and run and wanted to assure you that a message of this kind is completely unacceptable. It seems her views on life have been completely changed by this vile man and she's no longer the daughter you once had. I'm sorry for you. The gifts you chose for her sound lovely. A small piece of luxury for her in an otherwise hard life. So kind!! Be kind to yourself now. A small piece of advice would be not to reply to this message. Or at least leave it a wee while. My sister often buys me gifts which aren't exactly to my taste. It doesn't mean she doesn't know me, just that it does get harder to buy for people as we get older. I often secretly exchange them. But I always say "thank you, they are lovely". Her message is very drama llama and unnecessary. Focus on the day to day and on looking after yourself. Get some nice treats in for Christmas and enjoy some nice TV or a book as a small distraction from this drama. You've had a had couple of days, even if you did have fun last night too. So it's time to relax and spend time with your other DDs. I hope you can have a nice time at Christmas even in difficult circumstances.

Derbee · 14/12/2021 16:37

Whatever you do, ignore @blahblah789. It may well be LB himself. Anyone who can read both threads, and still sympathise with your awful daughter, is so far removed from understanding normal human emotions and interactions that they are not worth listening to.

Mix56 · 14/12/2021 16:42

Even though it may be LB who actually wrote the text, (you said before he actually uses the phone.)
I think I'd say " sorry they're not suitable, just sell them, or give to charity shop.
It's strange how ever much I try to show the love & care i have for you, you are never grateful.
You told me your pjs were in shreds. I really thought the ones I sent were cotton.
But never mind you can reject them like everything else.
Happy Christmas."
Then SILENCE

blahblah789 · 14/12/2021 16:46

As I said, I also sympathise with op.
I just don’t think the breakdown in the relationship is entirely one sided.
Remember the days where it was okay for someone to have a different opinion based on their own life choices? 🙄
My emotions are perfectly human and I interact just fine with people around me, I just come from a situation with a parent who seems quite similar and think it would help op if they stopped over analysing everything and understood how it could be hurtful that when they are trying to rebuild a relationship dd is gifted things that show no understanding of her. You cannot rebuild a natural, unforced relationship when so much of what is done or said is thought about and agonised over.

Pemba · 14/12/2021 16:49

Back away, back away, either don't reply (let her do the wondering for a change!) or you could just reply 'you're right, I simply don't recognise the person you've become'. And then nothing else.

You sound lovely but please stop pouring out love, gifts, your time and energy to her, only to get kicked in the teeth. Protect yourself and be glad you have two decent daughters.

Just say nothing/one final message then the door is open to her if she ever comes to her senses and decides to leave him. But I have to say, she sounds pretty unpleasant herself.

Derbee · 14/12/2021 16:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

babouchette · 14/12/2021 16:53

I am flabbergasted by her rudeness and selfishness. There is no excuse, controlling partner or not.

I have followed your previous threads and I agree with everyone else who has said to be brief in your response. "That's a shame, please just give them to the charity shop. I won't send any more presents from now on. Have a good Christmas."

Then just leave her to it. You have been so conciliatory towards her and every time it just gets thrown back in your face. I urge you to put some boundaries in place and remove any further opportunities for her to hurt you, at least for a few months while you recover from the terrible events you've had to go through this year.

Honestly if I was her friend or sibling I would give her such an earful for behaving like this!

EssexLioness · 14/12/2021 16:55

Sorry you received that message OP. I wouldn’t say what I really think because she is still your daughter and to hear too harsh a criticism/ name calling would be hurtful to you. But suffice to say, however we’ll you brought her up, she really is not a very nice person at all.
Yes she is in a terrible situation but she is venting her frustrations cruelly in your direction. As I said before she wants to hurt you. That message was designed to cause you pain. By trying to pander to it you are making things worse. You don’t seem to want to take the advice, which is understandable, but you really do need to disengage. It is the only way.
Your gifts sound thoughtful and even if you didn’t get it right there was no need for her message. I’m sure many of us have got gifts we don’t want but we don’t all send confrontational messages to the sender. The polite thing to do is shove them in a cupboard somewhere or regift/ donate them

HappyGoLuckyLuLu · 14/12/2021 16:56

Suggest you take high road and then leave them to it, something like: "Oh, that's a shame that you don't like the gifts. Please regift/donate/sell however you see fit. Hope all goes well with the birth & return to Ireland - I'll look forward to hearing from you when you're more settled again or if you need me at all before then. Lots of love always, Mum"

Then silence for a while... don't pander & don't apologise

blahblah789 · 14/12/2021 17:00

@Derbee

I just come from a situation with a parent who seems quite similar

@blahblah789 then you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself. And if you abuse your mother like the OP is abused, you should take a long hard look at yourself and your disgusting behaviour. It’s not merely a “difference of opinion” it’s literally YOU vs EVERYONE ELSE

I definitely don’t treat her like the ops dd does. I’ve already said I think the daughters behaviour is disgusting. She needs to be completely financially cut off and made to grow up and fend for herself.

Op wants to build a relationship with her, what they’re doing isn’t working obviously. Another perspective is not a bad thing 🤷🏻‍♀️

I distanced from my parent because I felt like a lot of the decisions I made were judged. I’ve also been in a physically and mentally abusive relationship. The dd and sil relationship seems emotionally abusive at best. Knowing that I was stuck in a relationship through fear and having to deal with the awareness of that but also knowing I couldn’t speak to my parent about it because of the judgement towards it meant that I actually stayed in it longer because I would convince myself that I had to prove them wrong.
I’m not saying any of that is the case with dd and op but it does seem like there is an element of judgment that absolutely will not help in rebuilding anything and the more the daughter feels op is against her and her life choices the more the daughter will squash herself into sils mindset because he’ll be able to use it as them against op

Chopinandchampagne · 14/12/2021 17:11

Thank you so much everyone for the kind and supportive messages.

@blahblah789 - I welcome other viewpoints. I am not the best at gift giving, I admit, and maybe didn't put enough thought into things. To be honest, I am trying to motivate myself to do Christmas at all, and will be glad when it's over. I haven't ordered any food, I haven't sent any cards, and the decorations are only half up. However, I did believe the pjs to be cotton and, although I am aware that DD doesn't like anything perfumed next to her skin - which rules out bath products, perfumes etc - I had not appreciated that it extended to things that you smell from a distance, such as candles. However, I also ordered some cashmere items, which clearly haven't arrived yet, but hopefully will be more acceptable.

I have not replied to DD. I have my friend's funeral on Thursday, and I next have a session with my therapist on Friday, when I will hopefully be feeling calmer and can talk things through. It just feels like emotional overload at present, to the extent where I find it hard to think straight.

OP posts:
neverornow · 14/12/2021 17:13

@blahblah789 - just stop. Don't derail this thread. This is a safe place for a very lovely OP who has been through a hell of a lot.

Bigboysmademedoit · 14/12/2021 17:14

Enough. You need to concentrate on yourself and your other daughters. I suggest a response along these lines ‘Dear DD, the last thing I meant to do was cause you anxiety but, while we’re being open and honest, this is causing me a great deal of anxiety too. As our relationship is causing us both distress I propose we end it. Please donate the unwanted and unsuitable gifts to a charity shop and, as you wish, I will send no more gifts/money etc as I appear to misjudge my good intentions. I wish you and your family well and hope one day we will move on but my request to you is that you don’t contact me for the time being. I know you are great parents and my grandchildren need nothing from me. I need time to grieve and concentrate on myself’. I guarantee she’ll get in contact - she’ll not want to lose the money tree you provide - but stick to it. You don’t want your other DDs to feel overlooked due to the intensity of this drama queen. Don’t put money in an account for your DHC which their parents can view or access - if you want to put money away for them do it in a way which only you can view and access. Your DD is controlling you and, by extension, your other DC. Make a stand. It’s very difficult but as your DGC get older they’ll see what their mum is like and reach out. Make it sound as if you’re doing what she wants and she’s in no position to argue. Please do it or she’ll ruin the rest of your life.

billy1966 · 14/12/2021 17:28

@HappyGoLuckyLuLu

Suggest you take high road and then leave them to it, something like: "Oh, that's a shame that you don't like the gifts. Please regift/donate/sell however you see fit. Hope all goes well with the birth & return to Ireland - I'll look forward to hearing from you when you're more settled again or if you need me at all before then. Lots of love always, Mum"

Then silence for a while... don't pander & don't apologise

Something bland like this.

No hint of upset or offense at all.

LB would like that.

I just really think by continuing to pander and engage the OP is making little of herself and giving so much joy to that awful SIL.

Far better IMO to step away, saying nothing other than all is well and that you hope the move is a great success.

I wouldn't dream of mentioning seeing the new baby, it will be just used to beat you with.

Keep wishing them well as blandly as possible.

Don't seek them out.

You cannot change the direction this is going in.

Stop bank rolling them in any shape or form.

IAAP · 14/12/2021 17:31

@Chopinandchampagne

Thank you so much for your kind replies.

Maybe my presents were not well judged, although they were sent with love.

However, I console myself by thinking that they are probably better than the one which they gave to DH for his last birthday, a month before he died - a second hand paperback copy of the Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn, a story about people perishing in death camps, just what you give to a terminal cancer patient.... Sorry, if that sounds bitter. I am determined not to turn into a bitter and twisted old woman!

You have the green light to never buy gifts again - apologise for the gifts. Realise nothing you give will ever ever be right. She said no gifts would be fine - ask her to return the gifts to you so you can donate them to charity or donate them to charity yourself. You must stop now
Sittingonabench · 14/12/2021 17:35

What an ungrateful cow! Apologies OP but this is disgraceful behaviour that is unacceptable at any time from anyone. Never mind from your daughter while you are grieving your husband! Tell her she has misunderstood how gift giving works, that she can do whatever she wants with the gifts and you will make sure it never happens again (because that is the last present you will buy her). Minimal contact, no blow out, no drama, don’t feed into it. It may be at some point she will need you and you may want to help but right now you need to focus on yourself.

Derbee · 14/12/2021 17:35

However, I also ordered some cashmere items, which clearly haven't arrived yet, but hopefully will be more acceptable

This is so so sad. You really sound like you believe you’re in the wrong for sending presents Sad

ESGdance · 14/12/2021 17:36

@billy1966 and @HappyGoLuckyLuLu are spot on.

I am so sorry that your DD1 can kick you so so hard when you are on the floor emotionally already.

This is very cruel behaviour.

Please take yourself out of punching distance. You are so very raw in the very early stages of grief.

He/they are likely trying to provoke a row so that they can flounce off justified in slamming down the shutters and punishing you by withholding the DGDs and newborn and claiming you abandoned them.

Don’t escalate or give them a fight or any emotion because that’s the oxygen / fuel they crave to triangulate you in to being a cog driving their dysfunctional toxic system.

Instead take this opportunity to back well out of this to a safe distance. You cannot survive their push / pull nonsense. They are trying to destabilise you.

Take the wind out of their sails.

Simple bland vanilla unemotional response.

Maybe even the 👍

Each and every time.

Don’t initiate contact.

Turn your back and focus your energy and headspace on the beautiful family and friends who will help you heal and bring you joy in time.

blahblah789 · 14/12/2021 17:37

@Chopinandchampagne

Thank you so much everyone for the kind and supportive messages.

@blahblah789 - I welcome other viewpoints. I am not the best at gift giving, I admit, and maybe didn't put enough thought into things. To be honest, I am trying to motivate myself to do Christmas at all, and will be glad when it's over. I haven't ordered any food, I haven't sent any cards, and the decorations are only half up. However, I did believe the pjs to be cotton and, although I am aware that DD doesn't like anything perfumed next to her skin - which rules out bath products, perfumes etc - I had not appreciated that it extended to things that you smell from a distance, such as candles. However, I also ordered some cashmere items, which clearly haven't arrived yet, but hopefully will be more acceptable.

I have not replied to DD. I have my friend's funeral on Thursday, and I next have a session with my therapist on Friday, when I will hopefully be feeling calmer and can talk things through. It just feels like emotional overload at present, to the extent where I find it hard to think straight.

I appreciate that you understand I’m not attacking you. Only trying to give what could be your daughters perspective, although I definitely don’t agree with her behaviour at all.

From your posts it doesn’t seem like going no contact is an option for you, It would distress you greatly, hurt your dgc and potentially isolate your dd in what seems to be a scary and difficult life.
From my own history, even when my mum didn’t say she didn’t like my partner or the things I was doing I still knew she felt that way, so I closed up, distanced myself to get away from the truths I wasn’t ready to face and ended up with a list of what was safe things to talk about and what wasn’t. At that point if I had received things I thought she should know I didn’t like it would have furthered my thinking that she didnt care about what I wanted or felt, only what she thought I should want or feel.
Again, not an attack but maybe something to think about so you can approach from a place of understanding and not hurt

OrangeBlossomsinthesun · 14/12/2021 17:41

Either don't reply or reply with something very bland. Do not say anything that implies you are hurt, it will be used against you. You need to Grey rock them both and step way back.
Some day she may leave him but until then you can't do anything other than have a bland low contact relationship with her.

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