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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
Triffid1 · 14/12/2021 17:45

I think all the advice you've had is spot on. And I don't think @blahblah789 is necessarily far off the rest. I spend a lot of my time trying not to judge SIL for the ridiculous things that she does as a result of her abusive partner. Because of course she can feel it, and it's just another stick to beat her with. And I suspect there is an element of that with your DD - she's in an abusive relationship and he's riling her up and encouraging her in her rudeness and nastiness and, very importantly, to take anything you do as a sign of how bad you are/thoughtless/judgemental. And you have admitted yourself that you do judge - which is frankly perfectly reasonable because their ideas and plans are completely and totally crazy. But it's all grist for the mill in terms of you being seen as the big baddie.

Her message was so rude that I agree with others, a breezy, "ok then, I really did think those were all natural and appropriate but please do donate to a local charity shop this time" is the way forward. Then try to step back.

GinIronic · 14/12/2021 17:51

I’m afraid the cashmere may be rejected too as it’s not vegan.

BookFiend4Life · 14/12/2021 17:53

@GinIronic

I’m afraid the cashmere may be rejected too as it’s not vegan.
I might have misunderstood but I believe the daughter is opposed to vegan items
DorotheaFrazil · 14/12/2021 17:53

I'm sending you much love @Chopinandchampagne. I have followed all your threads and was really hoping things might have stabilised a little.

For what it's worth, I think @billy1966 and @HappyGoLuckyLuLu have it spot on. You can't do right for doing wrong and emotion on your part will just add grist to the mill. Don't feed it.

I understand completely that you desperately want your darling daughter to still be there underneath all this nastiness but the more you look for her, the less likely she is to pop her head up.

You can only control what you do. You can't control her reaction. The more you respond, the longer this cycle will go on. Just step away at least for the next couple of weeks and take care of yourself. Concentrate on you and your other DDs. Sending you love.

tribpot · 14/12/2021 18:02

@GinIronic

I’m afraid the cashmere may be rejected too as it’s not vegan.
I'm not sure someone who cooks and eats a squirrel the dogs brought in is gonna quibble at cashmere for vegan reasons (the DD is a decidedly former vegan, @GinIronic! )

@Chopinandchampagne Please stop second guessing yourself and taking everything she says to heart. Her (or LB's) words are designed to hurt you, designed to make you feel guilty enough to send more money. There is no need to respond, there is no need to worry about whether the cashmere will be more acceptable and there is 100% no need to send any further gifts.

Please lean on your other DDs and put some distance between you and DD1. You cannot fix her. She simply does not deserve the love, care, worry and attention you show her - and your other DDs do.

MotherofTerriers · 14/12/2021 18:07

Your daughter is behaving very cruelly. Your daughter, not LB.

No gift you give will ever be right. You are trying to find something beautiful, that she will love, to help build and maintain your bond. She wants impersonal cash.
I'd write and suggest she donates the gifts to charity and that since your gifts make her anxious you won't send any more. Put away any cash you would have spent on your grandchildren to give them when they are older.

GrumpyLivesInMyHouseNow · 14/12/2021 18:12

I don't think you could do right for doing wrong. Anything you sent was never going to be right... all you need to know is that you bought and sent the items with love.

In your shoes I'd simply send a message back along the lines of 'sorry you didn't like the gift, please send them back'

I'd not offer her the money or anything else. She's been incredibly rude and un grateful

Okki · 14/12/2021 18:26

I'm sorry this is going on still. I think as a parent, you are trying to treat your daughter and spoil her with little luxuries. A totally normal thing I believe. But, DD's lifestyle shows that the 'normal luxuries' we could expect to be spoilt with aren't really her at the moment. All the decisions she/they make about the way they live aren't anything most of us associate with. Whilst I understand that her rejection of your gifts, especially relight now, is hurtful, I'm afraid I would also ask my parents/ very close family not to buy me things I wouldn't appreciate. If I just said thank you and regifted, I might get exactly the same next time and it's such a waste of money (which she does think about) and they would be hurt if they found out. I know that others will disagree with what I'm saying, but gift giving and receiving stresses me out completely and I hate the fact that people think their gifts have bought me pleasure when they haven't. I honestly think you should cancel the cashmere if you can.

@HappyGoLuckyLuLu message is a really good response.

NeilBuchananisBanksy · 14/12/2021 18:30

Cancel the cashmere gifts tonight- it will only go against you and cause you further angst.

AnFiaRuaNua · 14/12/2021 18:34

So much detail here. Got as far as "moved to Ireland" and I think I understand.

Please stop thinking you need to fully understand every decision she makes. You dont.

Keep it light.

No need to keep your concerns to yrslf. Stop being concerned and assume it's all going to be ok.

YanTanTetheraPetheraPimp · 14/12/2021 18:36

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tara66 · 14/12/2021 18:50

I have not read your other threads or even a lot of this one but felt I had to post! Please stop trying to please this DD and her H. The H is domineering and rude. They sound like a disaster waiting to happen - especially regarding the property in Ireland, having no idea even about property purchase basics i.e. one views property before buying and doesn't over pay yet they are arrogantly pretending to know it all!!They are rude about your gifts and you are not appreciated ( but maybe they just don't have room for more ''stuff'' - it does accumulate!). Their attitude is mean spirited and cruel (they remind me of King Lear's elder daughters!). They are not trying to help you get over DH's death at all - and should at least be kind. Don't give them anything again , they don't like, deserve it and do not want it! That includes any inheritance. Cut them out of any Will. Don't try to contact them. Find a good hobby! You have other children, thank goodness! Good luck and don't get stuck a darkest Gatwick ( read that bit!).

RandomMess · 14/12/2021 18:55
Thanks

Sorry things are still so shitty.

The huge anxiety over the gifts is because LB will have been ranting on and on about them and how it's a reflection of what a dreadful person you are and he needs to protect them for you AngrySad

I also think around the birth your DD knows that LB will drag her home again to carry on looking after the DDs and house even if she nearly dies again. He doesn't want her to have any support or anyone to scoop her up and rescue her when she is vulnerable and less able to cope with his abuse.

NoSquirrels · 14/12/2021 18:56

Flowers for you, Chopin.

I’d just say

“Ah, that’s a shame, they were sent with love but I’m sorry to hear I didn’t get it quite right! Returning or exchanging won’t be possible so please just donate them to a charity shop if they’re making you anxious”

Then a generic line about what you’ve been up to and that’s it. Don’t offer any more, don’t get drawn in.

Billybagpuss · 14/12/2021 18:58

I’m so sorry all this is going on @Chopinandchampagne

I don’t really have much to add as my first thought was what an absolute bitch, but it does all seem to be leading to where you feared in your OP.

The only thing I can suggest is keep the lines of communication boring but open and protect yourself. Have a peaceful Christmas with your family and try and keep all this drama distant.

RandomMess · 14/12/2021 18:58

I agree with the light responses, include that you thought the PJs were cotton but mistakes happen and would she donate to the local woman's refuge if not a charity shop?

lessthanathirdofanacre · 14/12/2021 19:00

I can't believe that anyone would think the DD's message was acceptable in any way, much less "worded perfectly." Hmm It was a breathtakingly cruel message designed to cause pain. How dare she say "I just feel like you don't really know me at all to be honest" when she is the one who has cut off contact in the past and didn't even tell you about her first child for 14 months?

I agree with PPs that a bland message in response would be best. Nothing to betray the hurt that you feel, but also nothing even remotely approaching an apology. Just a neutral "thanks for letting me know, have a lovely Xmas" sort of reply.

AnnaMagnani · 14/12/2021 19:06

@GinIronic

I’m afraid the cashmere may be rejected too as it’s not vegan.
I think the cashmere will be rejected as it is not money.

I'd cancel the cashmere now, as whatever you do it's wrong (except money and definitely don't send that!) and not send a gift at all.

Calmdown14 · 14/12/2021 19:08

OP it's not the gifts. The gifts are just the symbol of the wider issue- for you and them.
You are investing in far too much in them because you can't convey your love in more normal ways. LB views them as an opportunity to prove how different you are to them and couldn't possibly get it
I'd send a message back saying you are sorry they didn't like them, perhaps they could donate to a charity or as a raffle prize. Engage no further.

For all future gift buying, start a game of gift bingo with a friend. Decide what will be wrong this time and why. Make it a joke with points for who buys the next bottle of wine for your night in.
At the moment it's all so serious and hurts you deeply. You could buy them the moon on a stick, it still wouldn't be right.
Continue to send small bits to show you care but relax about the outcome.
Personally I'd send a pack of puppy pads of a towel for the next one and say 'oh I thought you wanted practical'!

Santahatesbraisedcabbage · 14/12/2021 19:21

Op I bet if you found a cure for Covid your dd would disapprove..
Step away please.. I have from my adult ds.. Only so long he can continue to blame me for his issues. He is nearly 30..
For my mh-and that of my other dc - I stopped contact with him after he assaulted his younger sibling one Christmas..

MrsPerfect12 · 14/12/2021 19:25

I'm beyond horrified at that message, I can't even fathom sending something like that to someone let alone my mum. You've done nothing wrong OP. Please don't take out a new phone contract for her when she moves to Ireland. Let that be the end of that.

ladycarlotta · 14/12/2021 19:30

@Chopinandchampagne

Hi Mum, Hope you are well. Just received a parcel of scented candles..did you order them before we spoke? This is awkward to say but are you able to get a refund on them?

If i'm honest Mum i feel a bit upset. It's kind of you to send us presents, but none of them have been suitable at all. They are the complete opposite of anything we would ever want or need. Now i dont know what to do with them if you cant send them back. I don't know enough people to re gift them. The whole thing has been causing me anxiety to be honest.

I've talked many times of my dislike of fake vegan foods and ive definitely said i don't like perfumed things. I've also said many times that i like us all to only wear natural fibres. The pyjamas were nice but they are synthetic so i will have to exchange them for something else. The gifts are also extravagant and expensive and i dont like thinking you have wasted your money. I would have been happy to have not received any gifts or if you really wanted to give something then something useful that we actually need of which there are many things as you can imagine when moving house.

I don't want to sound ungrateful, I just feel like you don't really know me at all to be honest.

I have just received the above, so upset!

reading this made my chest feel all tight and sad. I understand how rejected you must feel. She hasn't looked for the love and kindness in these gifts, or she chooses not to see it. At my poorest I'd have loved these kinds of luxuries, so I understand why you sent them.

I don't know if this is what she is really like or if her husband is dripping poison in her ear, or if she is just so stressed she cant think straight... but this message is about her and not about you. I don't think you've done anything wrong here. I wonder if someone responds to her thoughtful acts like this too, and makes her feel worthless and stupid in this insidious manner. OP, please enjoy your other daughters and the people who love you. Leave the door open for your eldest to come back, because her husband sounds like a controlling shitbag and she may one day really need the help. But right now you can't reach her and you'll only wring yourself out trying.

Littlepaws18 · 14/12/2021 19:44

Gifts are meant to be thoughtful and yours were! You tried to provide her with things you believed she needed and took great consideration when choosing them. If as she claims you don't know her well enough, then maybe that's her own doing as she has kept you out of her important life decisions for the last few years, moved away when you needed her most and has done nothing but complain and pass hurtful judgement every single time you speak to her. It's damned rude to reject a present no matter whether she liked it or not. I always remember as a kid we always had to buy the close members of our family presents out of our pocket money, I bought my grandad 'Life in the Freezer' by David Attenborough- he gave me it back saying it made him feel cold. Well my heart went cold towards him when he did that. So rude and hurtful.

Your daughter sounds like she has a martyr complex going on, everyone doesn't understand her, everyone around her does evil things- yet she isn't willing to see the hurt she has caused by her own actions and words. I'm outraged on your behalf. She is so lucky to have such a loving mother.

I know her husband is probably feeding her this information but as someone who has been in a terrifying dv situation- when he started turning on my family that was when I left. She still has her own mind and she is also making these choices.

Without adding additional worry, your post has also made me think about your grandchildren. If he is treating your daughter like dirt how is he treating them? And is your daughter letting him. Even if he is fulfilling their basic needs their life's role models are messed up. And home schooled- home schooling (as a teacher here) my first thought always is what are the family hiding. Very rarely have I witnessed successful home schooling. And even if it is successful, again they are limiting the role models, relationships that the children can build to realise that their family is out of the norm.

Sorry for not writing an uplifting post as you are doing incredibly well with the situation and doing all the right things. Don't lower your self to their standards. And remember they are judging you by their standards, which clearly are a low bar.

Nanny0gg · 14/12/2021 19:48

@blahblah789

As I said, I also sympathise with op. I just don’t think the breakdown in the relationship is entirely one sided. Remember the days where it was okay for someone to have a different opinion based on their own life choices? 🙄 My emotions are perfectly human and I interact just fine with people around me, I just come from a situation with a parent who seems quite similar and think it would help op if they stopped over analysing everything and understood how it could be hurtful that when they are trying to rebuild a relationship dd is gifted things that show no understanding of her. You cannot rebuild a natural, unforced relationship when so much of what is done or said is thought about and agonised over.
But it's not as if the DD and LB are especially good at gift-giving themselves if you look at the last present she bought her father...
SirVixofVixHall · 14/12/2021 19:56

I agree with the pp who said to say “you are right, I don’t know you at all” and extend it with “and I don’t feel that you know me either, so let’s give up on gifts”. .
After agreeing, suggest to her that she returns the gifts to you. Then never send another.
Occasionally over the years my Mum would get me something that I would ask to change, mainly when I was a rude and ungrateful teenager!! I remember huffing to a friend that my Mum didn’t understand my style, aged 14…Later there was the occasional thing that I would discreetly exchange without ever telling her. To dismiss everything you send in such a horrible way, even more so when you are deep in grief, is so callous that it is shocking. She should be trying to care for you now, she seems stuck in that teenage stage, not almost thirty with two dds of her own.
Really she could have said a nice thank you and put them on ebay if she disliked them all that much and wanted the cash. Totally unnecessary to ever mention it to you. It isn’t as though you bought a sofa or something she had no room for. You bought treat type things that you hoped she would like.

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