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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
felulageller · 14/12/2021 08:16

There are huge alarm bells for domestic abuse here.

He's doing a really good job of isolating DD from family and support.

I'd echo PP who said to alert Irish authorities. Those DGC are being exposed to domestic abuse, which is likely to be much worse behind closed doors than what you know of.

Chopinandchampagne · 14/12/2021 12:36

Thank you so much for all of the replies and advice. I am sorry at the delay in responding, partly because there has been a lot to consider, but also because I went to dinner with some friends last night and stayed over. They were friends of DH before he met me and the four of us then became close friends. They were so kind, went to such a lot of trouble to cook me a lovely meal etc. We spent a long time reminiscing about DH, which was lovely, but also quite emotional. They are enjoying their retirement, doing lots of things together, a really happy couple, and I am so pleased for them, but it accentuated what I have lost, so I was quite tearful on the way back. However, now I am safely back in my sanctuary, with my dog and DD2's cat curled up beside me. I have my friend's funeral on Thursday, then countdown to Christmas.

ESG - your advice, as always, is impeccable, with great depth and insight. I have purchased the book which you recommended on Kindle and am a couple of chapters in. It is massively helpful, thank you! I do think I am getting stronger. In the past, I couldn't have helped sending some sort of reply to DD by now - and I have to confess to composing them in my head - BUT, I have not sent one! I have re-read the thread several times, and it has given me much courage and strength to step back from the drama. I love the way that, having provided such profound advice, you then conclude brilliantly by saying 'he's nuts'! And that says it all really, and it will be my new mantra! The more it goes on and I observe the same old patterns of behaviour, the more I have finally grown to accept that it is fighting a lost cause to go on as I have been. You can't bargain with a terrorist!

Essex - thank you for your kind words and I am sorry to hear of your past unhappiness, but am pleased that all worked out in the end. You are all right, I deserve better than this, and DH certainly deserved better.

SirVix - good to see you again, I remember you from my last threads. You make some excellent points regarding DD's loss of self, she just seems to be bound up in LB's identity. She never says 'I think' or 'I believe'. It is always 'We think' or 'We believe', alternatively 'LB says'. Her godparents, who saw her at DH's funeral, for the first time in years, have recently told me that they were shocked to see such a change in her. They thought that she had become a 'zombie', that the old personality and character of DD had been completely eroded. (and yes, I have been paying her 'phone bill).

DD's views have completely changed, from being a committed vegan to eating meat for virtually every meal - even the toddlers consumed rare steak when they came to the house whilst DH was so poorly. DD told me that, on one occasion, she cooked up the remains of a squirrel which one of the dogs had brought in.

Hamster - I completely see the logic in what you are saying but I am worried that I might be playing into LB's hands by saying anything too much, as he can then justify himself by saying that he needs to protect her from me, as I am attacking him, and he is her husband and must have priority. She will accept what he says, as she has been trained to do so. I will step back but I don't want to go to total estrangement, as it will leave her more vulnerable.

billy 1966, forrest, fluoropostit, NorthSouth - this is very good advice from you all, thank you!

Gooseberry - I feel that you might have met LB, so accurate is your portrayal. I was wondering how long it would take for him to rub up the neighbours the wrong way. DD said that a nearby couple had been kind enough to introduce them to the home schooling group and seemed friendly, but one person was West Indian and one was vegan, so I suspect that the relationship is not going to end well, given LB's views. DD had made one good friend where she is now, with children of the same age, whom she is obviously going to miss.

Elsie - so sorry to hear of your situation and well done on finding the courage in taking action to preserve your own sanity and well being.

Alfie - so sorry to hear of your problems, also. My DD has just turned 29.

lego and everyone else, thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to respond. It is much appreciated.

OP posts:
Mix56 · 14/12/2021 13:15

I'm so sorry Chopin, that this cycle continues. DD1 is still in his thrall.
I wonder if the problems with the surveyor, forestry etc, have enraged him & he is lashing out, as he has possibly made a (to us, obvious) mistake buying this property. He is possibly livid that you didn't lend more money so they could have got something better... (although they could have sold one of their other properties).
They certainly rushed in to this hair brained scheme.
LB also knows that she will be likely to want your support when new baby arrives. He has made you the enemy & I agree with the triangulation theory, smoke & mirrors.
Ultimately I continue to think that withdrawal to protect yourself is your only protection.
You tell her that you would love to see her & newborn, but she needs to organize where & when, as LB is still ostracizing her, & any attempts on your behalf are always scorned.
Then enjoy a lovely Christmas with your loving supportive DD2 & 3

SirVixofVixHall · 14/12/2021 13:30

“Like a zombie” and all the “we think “ stuff is really disturbing. I wonder if reading up on cults might be helpful, I think we possibly discussed this ages ago ? I have a friend who I may have mentioned, her son was taken over by a much older woman who was involved in a cult, and the “zombie” comment is exactly what my friend and her husband said when they saw him again after decades of separation. There are many other similarities in things you have said. In my friend’s case it has never really been resolved, she has no relationship with her son, and she has had to simply accept this and enjoy her other two adult children and grandchildren.
It is incredibly hard to play the long game, to accept the things we cannot change, to be your truthful self and simply wait for tides to turn.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that being absolutely truthful with your daughter is the most important thing. Otherwise she has no other narrative, only his. Even if it causes LB to react, that is not for you to try and pre-empt. You need to be the immovable force, the one solid, trustworthy and truthful thing. Trying to adapt to not antagonise is in itself engaging in the manipulation, it makes you part of this horrible dynamic. You need to sit beyond all the noise and drama, and not engage or react from fear. Be yourself and live in hope.

Chopinandchampagne · 14/12/2021 15:16

Hi Mum,
Hope you are well.
Just received a parcel of scented candles..did you order them before we spoke?
This is awkward to say but are you able to get a refund on them?

If i'm honest Mum i feel a bit upset. It's kind of you to send us presents, but none of them have been suitable at all. They are the complete opposite of anything we would ever want or need. Now i dont know what to do with them if you cant send them back. I don't know enough people to re gift them. The whole thing has been causing me anxiety to be honest.

I've talked many times of my dislike of fake vegan foods and ive definitely said i don't like perfumed things. I've also said many times that i like us all to only wear natural fibres. The pyjamas were nice but they are synthetic so i will have to exchange them for something else. The gifts are also extravagant and expensive and i dont like thinking you have wasted your money. I would have been happy to have not received any gifts or if you really wanted to give something then something useful that we actually need of which there are many things as you can imagine when moving house.

I don't want to sound ungrateful, I just feel like you don't really know me at all to be honest.

I have just received the above, so upset!

OP posts:
Maxiedog123 · 14/12/2021 15:20

I don't think I'd be sending gifts any more.

Santahatesbraisedcabbage · 14/12/2021 15:20

Just tell the bloody ungrateful madam to donate them to a refuge.
Angry

HappyGoLuckyLuLu · 14/12/2021 15:24

Thanks I'm upset on your behalf too. Definitely no more gifts and perhaps a simple reply might be "you're right, I really don't think I do know you at all" - whatever you do, don't apologise for sending gifts. Most daughters would have loved to receive these

HappyGoLuckyLuLu · 14/12/2021 15:25

& don't be sorting a refund for them either!

Maxiedog123 · 14/12/2021 15:25

It doesn't sound like anything you send will be judged acceptable by whatever arcane scale they are using.
Even if you sent books or craft things for the children fault would be found.
I would give up, and no I wouldn't send cash.

NorthSouthcatlady · 14/12/2021 15:26

So sorry to read this further update Flowers. I’m not surprised you feel upset. For clarity l would love to receive pyjamas (l virtually live in mine) and would love scented candles

@Santahatesbraisedcabbage good point, a refuge would appreciate them lm sure

CharityDingle · 14/12/2021 15:28

She is annoyed, or rather they both are, that you are wasting their inheritance - as they see it.

I know it's pointless saying it, but here goes, cut off contact with both of them.

neverornow · 14/12/2021 15:30

Jesus Christ OP. I am so sorry. What an absolutely horrible message.

I've followed all of your threads. As you know yourself at the stage - @ESGdance advice is 100% spot on. The less you engage, the more visible LB's ways will be to her.

I so, so hope she sees the light someday. Sending you love and strength Thanks

Chopinandchampagne · 14/12/2021 15:34

Thank you. The candles were Diptyque and the pjs from the White Company, I made a mistake, I thought they were cotton and I have just checked and they are actually jersey.

I so wanted to give her lovely gifts and I just feel that I have been slapped in the face. All the love I had and have is worthless to her, just so much trash. I was just getting over my wobble this morning over DH and now this, just another kick in the teeth. She hasn't thanked me for any of the children's gifts and I very much doubt we will even receive a card.

Sorry for the pity party.

OP posts:
EdithSitwell · 14/12/2021 15:35

This is heartbreaking. Please try to disengage.

Derbee · 14/12/2021 15:36

Jesus Christ @Chopinandchampagne she is beyond help. Cut contact. Stop being a victim and letting yourself be abused by her. She’s vile. She might come back to you with her tail between her legs, or she might not. Either way, grieve the daughter you hoped for, and immerse yourself in your life with the other two. This cycle has to stop. I’m so sorry for you. But you need to consider her gone. Dead, if you need to

WhoAre · 14/12/2021 15:39

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

MondayTuesdayWednesday · 14/12/2021 15:39

Honestly, her message is horrible and she is a cold hearted person to send that to her mother. I am disgusted on your behalf.

I have read all of your threads and replied on some so I know the full back story. There is absolutely nothing that you can do to make this relationship better. You have done everything in your power and it is always thrown back in your face.

I really think that you need to step back and stop contacting her except on birthdays and holidays maybe as others have already suggested.

I would reply to that message and suggest she donates the gifts to a charity shop and that you won’t be sending her any further presents. One sentence and leave it at that. Alternatively just ignore her.

I’m sorry you’re going through this but now you need to protect yourself. Wishing you the best.

Maxiedog123 · 14/12/2021 15:40

I would wonder if sending beautiful things like Diptyque candles is too much of a reminder, esp to SIL, of the life she had rather than her present life on a rundown farm with multiple small children and a workshy husband.

BookFiend4Life · 14/12/2021 15:41

So sorry OP. I can't imagine talking to my sweet mom that way. If you decide to reply I think I would just say I'm sorry the gifts weren't to your taste and suggest donating them to a refuge. I wouldn't get into a back and forth about how you don't "know" her. I think she just wants to argue and assert that you're in the wrong. Just pull way back and try to stay light and breezy. Spend some time with your other daughters, who sound lovely!

Noshowlomo · 14/12/2021 15:42

I’m upset for you. The ungrateful bitch. She is a bitch, and that is a bitchy thing to say. She must KNOW what hurt that causes.
Only natural fibres.. fuck off. I wonder if he’s said all this and shes just reiterating his absolute hateful bollocks. Excuse my french but ANGRY for you. How dare they!
I want candles and pjs.. it sounds like a lovely gift.
If you sent £1million, it wouldn’t be right as it would be £5 short ….
You are lovely… and this is their issue and whilst she may be a victim it sounds like she’s lapping it up.
I don’t know how I’d respond to that without saying oh fuck off then. Take your natural fibres and road kill squirrel and have a nice life!

AttilaTheMeerkat · 14/12/2021 15:45

She may have sent that but those are really LBs crafted words designed deliberately to wound. She is acting as both caretaker and his mouthpiece and he is seen as some sort of Svengali figure to she being his muse. She is with a dangerous and skilled manipulator, these types are often seen heading up cults.

I was not sadly all that surprised to see that DD1 had been in a previous abusive relationship too. Her boundaries, already skewed by that level of abuse, have been further destabilised by LB now and he did target her deliberately. It will take her years now, if she does escape him, to recover from such high levels of control.

Do not send any response as types like LB need that (a response to such disordered of thinking people is the reward because they know they have you then). Drop the rope they hold out to you. Keeping any hold of it will destroy you.

GinIronic · 14/12/2021 15:45

Detach as so many others have said. Only send the gift of wild rice and organic lentils in future.

neverornow · 14/12/2021 15:46

Your posts are not a pity party at all OP. Do not apologise.

I am furious for you that she could be so cruel and nit pick the lovely gifts you sent after all that you've been though.

Nothing you do, say or send them will be right.

Squeezita · 14/12/2021 15:48

you really wanted to give something then something useful that we actually need of which there are many things as you can imagine when moving house.

I.e. send us cash Hmm

She must know you can’t get a refund unless she returns them herself.

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