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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
ESGdance · 01/02/2022 11:42

Yes “follow the money” is always a short circuit to motive. I suspect they are eying up your MIL and wondering if that will be another windfall anytime soon.

Chopinandchampagne · 03/02/2022 11:32

Thank you everyone for your replies and ongoing support.

I am in a bit of a quandary. I have just received a lovely card from LB's parents, entitled 'Yay!', saying that they wanted to share their happiness, that they have seen DGS a couple of times, what a beautiful baby he is, how alert, how good that he has DH's name, what a happy family they are, soon going back to their new life in Ireland and how we will all be following them on their adventures, how we share three DGC, how we share family joy etc.

It is a genuine, lovely message, but I really don't know how to respond. They also say that DD has told them that I have been on some trips (a couple of short UK trips last summer), so they are probably wondering why I am not visiting DGS. I feel so emotional, I just feel like picking up the 'phone and pouring out my heart and crying. But it's probably not a good idea, is it? I suspect they would be horrified if they knew that I am not allowed to see the baby, but he is their son and they obviously feel delighted as they see a lovely, happy family before them, and I don't want to disillusion or upset them. They have been good PIL to my DD.

In the meantime, I have heard nothing from DD, who would have received the parcel with presents for the new baby and DGDs on Monday....

OP posts:
2DogsOnMySofa · 03/02/2022 11:36

Oh gosh op, I'm so sorry you are having to go through all this, and with the additional heartbreak of losing your dh. Reading your last post made my heart ache for you, I can only imagine how tormented you must feel... I've nothing really to suggest as I don't know if it's worth contacting them or not. But just to say my thoughts are with you Thanks

Chopinandchampagne · 03/02/2022 11:43

Thank you 2DogsOnMySofa (brilliant user name!).

I don't know what to do, I feel stupidly indecisive. It is 15 months today since DH died and two years tomorrow since his diagnosis, so I genuinely feel incapable of coherent thought. I don't want to cause any upset or trouble, but I am getting the impression that DD's PIL probably think that I just can't be bothered to visit, when nothing could be further from the truth.

I am taking deep breaths and will try not to do or say anything, which I may later regret.

OP posts:
Starfish1021 · 03/02/2022 11:51

I don’t want to read and run, and I know others on this thread have much better insights than me. Personally I would be clear with them that their son hasn’t allowed a visit. They actually sound lovely, let them feel some of the horror of his actions. But that’s my thoughts. I’m so sorry you are grieving. Take care of yourself

MrsCat1 · 03/02/2022 11:55

Choppin. I have silently followed your posts from the start. On many occasions I have drafted posts but then not followed through. My D parents walked in your shoes for 20 years. In my family's case it was my DB who was controlled by SIL. So many of your posts resonate with what happened in my family. At one point my D parents tried to each out to SILs parents and enlist their help. It just made things worse. Implied criticism of their daughter etc and even more fury from SIL.

So I'm afraid that bright and breezy is the way to go. A jolly little note back saying how delighted you are at the birth etc but nothing more. I'm so, so sorry. X

forrestgreen · 03/02/2022 11:59

I think you decided to do nothing on days where you feel emotional or overwhelmed.

forrestgreen · 03/02/2022 12:02

Also, I could be remembering wrongly but I think there was discussion about dd pil not being completely blameless, and adding a layer of problems to issues.

Does the card ask for a response? If not then maybe a general text along the lines of, Thankyou for your card, lovely to hear from you.

And this is the usual cycle of response from dd and lb - reel you in, give you a normal glimpse of life, then cut you off.

tattychicken · 03/02/2022 12:30

The PIL could well have been encouraged/manipulated to send a card by LB, hoping it would sting you into action. Don't respond in anything other than the blandest way.
Stop, breathe, detach. You are doing great.

ESGdance · 03/02/2022 13:20

Another day. Another goading from them as they have not had the emotional drama they feast on.

You know the drill. Deep breath - find your strength to do nothing right now.

Rinse and repeat.

BUT…

Honour your feelings of deep sorrow on your own side of this dynamic and more importantly for the anniversaries you are enduring. That is the most important purpose for the next few days. Don’t let them sabotage or distract from your grief process and ultimately slow healing.

Don’t wonder what they think. Don’t care what they think. Just know what you think.

They know their son is a nightmare. I also am dubious about the motive behind this card - do you generally keep in touch this way? Seems odd to me.

Know that one of his parents is likely deeply unhinged - or as PP have said they are his flying monkeys and have been manipulated in to this.

Again shocking your DD has not thanked your for the gifts - the timing of this card is not accidental.

Don’t play their games. It doesn’t require a response - so leave it - for now.

I suspect that no response from you will trigger a call from your DD.

It’s like a toxic game of ping pong with dementors.

You might want to send a very bland text back direct to the parents after the weekend - or you might decide not to open a dialogue with them.

They are not your friends. Don’t fall into any traps. They are using different tactics and coming round the back door IMHO. Keep it locked.

Turn your back on this pain and look away to your bigger priorities right now.

It never ends but you are managing it impeccably.

Wherearemymarbles · 03/02/2022 13:39

If it helps chopin think of it like this
LB is probably a narcissist and its widely accepted narcissists are created
Ergo LB’s parents are to blame for the way LB is
So not need to be involved with them or worry about what they think of you as it was their woeful parenting that created LB in the 1st place!

Suzysuz · 03/02/2022 14:28

Everything that @ESGdance said ❤️
Grey rock
Not your circus, not your monkeys
You know the truth of your situation
They are not your friends, this is not a game you are playing ❤️

BluebellCockleshell123 · 03/02/2022 14:31

Dear Chopin.

There is no need to respond to this card…and especially not straight away. Well done for resisting the temptation to call or message them with the reality of the situation. You obviously know in your heart that this would not improve relations with your DD. You’ve come so far in your ways of dealing with things and you should be so proud of yourself that you recognise the manipulation.

It’s interesting that the PIL sent a card at all. Either they have been duped into thinking that the level of contact you have with your DD is your choice, or they have chosen to send a card knowing that it would upset you when you have not been invited to visit. Other posters have it right I fear - LB’s behaviour cannot be invisible to them so they must be complicit in some way…either deliberately or from their own personality defects. Or maybe they are head in the sand types whose golden boy can do no wrong?

If you do reply, take a few days and make the wording short and breezy. Nothing that could be twisted and relayed back to LB.

I’m sorry to hear that you have so many sad anniversaries this week. Hope you can take some time to grieve and to take care of yourself.

Flowers
Juletide · 03/02/2022 15:25

Could you ask the ILs when they're next visiting their son, as it would be nice to meet up with them and see the new baby at the same time? Their reply could be interesting.

BorsetshireBanality · 03/02/2022 16:02

I would wait a while then reply what a lovely thoughtful card they sent and how super to have a new grandchild, and leave it at that.

SirVixofVixHall · 03/02/2022 16:25

Gosh that is a shock for you Chopin. How to respond , or not, is very tricky. It is such an upsetting letter to receive.
Who knows what your DD and their son have told them ? I imagine they have asked if you have seen the baby, perhaps they think you don’t want to visit, perhaps they are stirring, just impossible to know.
In your place I would tell them that their son won’t let you visit your own daughter and grandson. You may prefer to just say nothing, or to respond politely with “i am longing to see him, I am waiting for an invitation “ type of thing that spells it out but is quite cool.
Am I right that you have never met them ? A bit odd that they have written to you .

RachelGreeneGreep · 03/02/2022 16:25

As pp have said, do nothing. If I remember correctly, they were aware of / in touch with the older grandchildren while you and your DH were not even aware of their existence. So Hmm to their yay card.

Even in normal circumstances, and I know the circumstances are far from normal, that is a very peculiar thing to do. Tbh, it sounds more like they are gloating.

Don't rise to their bait, which is most likely also coming from LB and your daughter.

SirVixofVixHall · 03/02/2022 16:28

I am now wondering if LB tells them that you go on trips but can’t make the effort to visit the baby. What a bloody awful situation. i do feel for you Chopin.

Angelswithflirtyfaces · 03/02/2022 16:31

Lots of different responses on her dear OP.
Blimey how cruel though if they know the truth of what is happening.
Personally I wouldnt respond at all and if asked reply that you dealing with upcoming anniversaries and thought the joy at ne GS is a given?
How dare they all prod you like a tiger in a cage to get you to be reactionary?
Is it a test to see just how invested you really are?
Whatever the truly screwed up dynamics ( they know and are being cruel, or do not know and therefore being used by LB) as part of this spiteful power play) do you really need to be involved with them?
Keep a dignified silence. You are doing so well, focus on the next few difficult times ahead.
Regarding the parents of LB being responsible for how he is, thats not fair though, as you are not responsible for you DD behaviours, some people are just pain nasty, clueless or downright used by others. But the tone of the card seems spiteful all the same.

Trampoline11 · 03/02/2022 17:03

Hi @Chopinandchampagne
I hope it's ok to post. I have read every heart breaking thread but have never felt I had anything to add to the advice that pp's have given. Until now.

Posters are saying to tell PIL's that you haven't been allowed to see the new baby. Please don't do this, please. LB would probably come back with a - she hasn't even asked. Which would be true but we know why and they may or may not.

I appreciate that my way of communicating may not be yours ( I think you're more educated than I am!) but don't fall into a trap. It may be a lovely card but if it were me, I would either ignore for now or reply (not sure how you would do that) something like - yes, isn't he gorgeous. So thrilled with everything. Fancy that - 3 grandchildren at our age...

I think of you often and the detachment is working for you. Don't let anyone spoil that x

UserBot9to5 · 03/02/2022 17:18

So painful to receive a card like that from LB's parents but a bland written response is all that can be risked. They will never believe their precious lobster boy is capable of excluding you, and getting off on it.

Xx

UserBot9to5 · 03/02/2022 17:20

Agree qith @Esgdance, it's the self compassion angle again, don't feel you aren't strong because this hurts. It is very hurtful so of course it hurts. Feeling hurt is the predictable reaction to what you have found out. Xx

billy1966 · 03/02/2022 17:24

Such great advice from above.

You have wisely stepped away from the drama triangle and that will be your saviour in this.

NOTHING good will emerge from engaging in his game.

Offer no opinion or information re the doctor situation.

Do not respond at all to his parents for at least a week. A super brief thank you card would be all.

Do not mention visiting ever again, in any shape or form.

Deny them both the oxygen of drama.

LB will HATE you asking nothing from or of them.

Continue to answer the phone on a good day, remaining upbeat and happy with your life and the times you share with your other daughters.

Your DD1 cannot have it her own way all the time.

She has chosen the distance and LB.
You now accept and respect it, and have moved on.

I find it very hard to believe his parents are not aware and were most likely directed to send you photos, noting their multiple visits.
Don't respond with anything but joy for them.

Your power now, is your complete acceptance in your life your daughter has chosen.

I certainly would be selling the french home, telling her nothing about it.

Arranging your finances so that DD2 and DD3 inherit your assets with the provision that they look after their sister should she leave him.
If you can arrange for your grandchildren to inherit some money at age 25, all the better.

You cannot change anything.
His power tripping will always be about trying to hurt you.

The best case scenario is that at some point your daughter see's the error of her ways through you moving on and keeping your distance, and decides that SHE wants contact despite LB.

It will only be if she takes back control.

I feel so sorry for you as you grieve your husband, he sounds like such a wonderful man.

I think he would be very proud of you reaching out and posting on MN.

He would absolutely want you to protect your from his daughter's odious choice of partner.

Flowers
REignbow · 03/02/2022 18:20

Jus when you have accepted the things that your DD1 does. Then boom! Another note, to completely derail you and to hit you where it hurts.

They may or may not be complicit with LB’s treatment of you. But, they know what he is like and it wouldn’t put it past him, to not complain about you to them!!

Also, you have sent another gift and DD1 has not even thanked you…

Please stop sending her anything.

Also, wait a week (or longer) and just send a simple thank you and nothing more to his parents.

I would crack on with arranging therapy for yourself, build your self esteem and concentrate on your other children.

Flowers for you as I would also be upset after receiving such a note

Billybagpuss · 03/02/2022 18:40

Do nothing lovely chopin 💐

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