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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
triballeader · 23/01/2022 12:08

I am so glad all seems to be well for your DD and DGS Chopin.

One word of caution which has been drawn from years of having to hammer in hellish bounderies time and time again with my, I can only assume some kind of personality disordered, ghastly manipulative brother. LB will have allowed your husbands name to be used for HIS son and then sent to you for a reason. Guard your heart as LB will know doing that will provide an additional tug to get past your defences and straight at your emotions and thus make it easier to manipulate you.

If you feel a heartfelt need to do something for your new grandson have a look at setting up a trust that matures when he is over 21 and hopefully independant from LB. From experience anything that was given to help others still living with my brother he always, always got his hands on to one way or another.

tribpot · 23/01/2022 13:05

Congratulations Chopin on the birth of your DGS . The main thing is that he and DD1 are alive and well. Of course this will also be a bittersweet time with it being the first birth of a grandchild since your DH died, even without all the complication that LB brings. I have to agree with @triballeader, the choice of middle name seems manipulative. I simply do not believe it was chosen purely out of love.

MadameHeisenberg · 23/01/2022 16:41

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Blueducks · 23/01/2022 17:24

That’s so harsh @MadameHeisenberg. I mostly agree with what you say about the daughter. But berating @Chopinandchampagne for coming on here to access support isn’t ok. She isn’t revelling in the drama. She’s a human. Human relationships are complex. It’s very easy for us all to say walk away. She’s her daughter. This should be a safe and supportive environment, regardless of how ready a person is to make changes in their life.

MadameHeisenberg · 23/01/2022 17:34

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ESGdance · 23/01/2022 17:37

Such a relief for you that they are safe and well. Delighted that you got photos and I hope that you get to speak to your DD soon. However I do echo - @Randomess not to say you are “grateful” to LB as it creates a power imbalance that he will exploit.

I suspect that as this is the first baby boy in the family amongst your own children and grandchildren that you might be yearning and searching to see some of your late DH in this new life.

It will be heartbreakingly cruel for them to deny you this in your grief but best to assume the worst in order to emotionally protect yourself.

Such a relief for you that they are safe and well. Delighted that you got photos and I hope that you get to speak to your DD soon. However I do echo - @Randommess not to say you are “grateful” to LB as it creates a power imbalance that he will exploit.

I suspect that as this is the first boy in the family amongst your own children and grandchildren that you might be yearning and searching to see some of your late DH in this new life.

It will be heartbreakingly cruel for them to deny you this in your grief but best to assume the worst in order to emotionally protect yourself. I also suspect that LB will be especially territorial around this male child.

I think an awful lot of emotion must have pivoted on this moment and you will likely be wiped out for the next few days. Be kind and gentle with yourself.

But make sure you celebrate and savour the moment - they can’t take your relief and joy from you - many congratulations.

JackieQueen · 23/01/2022 18:17

Congratulations for your new grandson op Flowers

UserBot999 · 23/01/2022 20:00

"Intense threads" on mumsnet allowed me to be chilled in real life.

We should be safe to post honestly here and it is huge number of posters who empathise with and support chopin that have kep the thread going.

Mycatsgoldtooth · 23/01/2022 20:05

Chopin I have read your thread and can’t imagine the conflicting emotions you feel today. Take care of yourself, you sound like a wonderful mother.

VikingOnTheFridge · 23/01/2022 21:36

What a relief that the baby has arrived safely.

Jk24 · 23/01/2022 21:44

Congrats op glad all went well. Hopefully you will get to meet him soon!

danny735 · 23/01/2022 23:10

@MadameHeisenberg

I’m not berating Blueducks, I’m saying how it appears to me as an outsider. It’s extremely intense and the threads follow a similar pattern; OP posts upsetting details, others understandably offer support and advice (the overwhelming majority being to go LC), OP returns, avoids the advice and adds huge swathes of information on the next saga. Posters follow with sympathy and advice (same as before) and the OP returns with a fresh drama. And on it goes, for 31 pages, and more on the previous thread. Maybe the OP isn’t ‘revelling’ in the drama per se, but she’s certainly caught up in it in an unhealthy way and it surely can’t really be helping her.

Maybe it’s easier to stay engaged with it than to go cold turkey and walk away. Probably. But sometimes the things we need to do most are the hardest.

@MadameHeisenberg

Nobody has forced you to read through this thread. If you find it intense you can simply move onto a lighter topic. Your message lacks empathy.

Yes some people have advised Chopin to go LC. Many others felt her daughter is in a dangerously abusive relationship and she should do what she can to keep lines of communication open.

She had recently lost her DH, a close friend and her dog. DD1 almost died giving birth to her second child. How on earth can you berate her for keeping in touch with her as she was about to give birth to DGS??

Chopin has a tribe of people on MN who want to support her through these awful times. I've personally found the thread very helpful in dealing with a similar situation.

Sending very best wishes at what must be an incredibly emotional time Chopin. Take care of yourself.

Immunetypegoblin · 24/01/2022 07:21

Congratulations on the safe arrival of your grandson Chopin Flowers

BluebellCockleshell123 · 24/01/2022 08:54

You must be so relieved that the baby has been born safely. The arrival of a new child is going to stir up so many feelings for you…especially when he has been named after your much loved husband. I hope you can focus on your own well being and find some peace and strength during this emotional time. 💐

MondayTuesdayWednesday · 24/01/2022 09:49

@Chopinandchampagne congratulations on the birth of your grandchild. It is great news that your daughter is well and so is her baby. That is something to be happy about so enjoy that. It is also great that they let you know and a lovely tribute to your DH that the baby has been given his name.

There is always hope that your relationship with your daughter will improve and while I, and others, have suggested that you need to step back to some degree to protect your own mental health that does not mean to say that you will ever give up on your daughter and she knows that you will be there for her if she ever needs your support.

Chopinandchampagne · 24/01/2022 10:07

Thank you everyone for your messages and congratulations.

DD telephone me from the hospital yesterday morning. I missed two calls and then tried her twice, then she called again. We had a completely normal conversation, exactly the sort of conversation you would expect between mother and daughter after a birth. She wanted to tell me everything about it and apologised for not telling me when she went into hospital, but it was all a bit of a rush in the end. She was natural and loving, hadn't even been strong enough to have a shower, but she wanted to talk to me. And there was warmth and love in her voice, it was genuine, I know that it was.

But then her 'phone kept insistently ringing and it was LB - I can't help thinking that she had called as soon as she felt well enough, after he left and that, if I hadn't missed those earlier calls, we would have had longer, but it was enough. She ended by saying 'I love you', just like she always used to, and subsequently sent two lovely photos, one of her with baby, smiling, and one of the baby sleeping. (I have also received just now, as I am typing, a further batch of photos of baby, they have been kept in as he has had blood tests for a potential infection. Apparently, no visitors are allowed, which won't please LB, but will hopefully give her some time to relax a bit).

My apologies if this is too much information, and I am aware that when I post, I don't have much of a filter sometimes, and my posts probably come over as a bit of a 'stream of consciousness'. I find it therapeutic to write things down, as well as being enormously grateful for all of the support which I have received. I know that what is important to me must seem trivial or overdramatic to others. But I can say, hand on heart, that my posts are genuine. I am not attention seeking or wanting to waste people's time. In fact, I am amazed at how generous people are with their time in posting and in their support, from here to Australia. Thank you!

Yesterday, after the euphoria and the rollercoaster of emotions - I stayed up all night crying - I was exhausted and didn't do much all day, apart from a long FaceTime with DH's sister. My MIL has now moved to a nursing home and my sister in law was able to visit for the first time. MIL was delighted to hear about her DGGS, and SIL thinks she was aware, although she has dementia and her memory is patchy. Anyway, they sent messages together to DD1, and it would have been nice for DD to receive those and, hopefully, feel part of the wider family.

DD2 and DD3 expressed virtually no response to the news at all, other than that they were pleased that the birth had gone well and that DD1 and her baby were fine. DD3 has told me today that she is pleased that he has DH's name, which has made her emotional, but she is also apprehensive in case he turns out like LB instead of her Dad. It makes her feel a bit sick - she was ashamed to say this, and says she knows DD1 is a good mother. She is also concerned that DGS will be the golden child with LB.

I have taken on board all of the comments about being detached, not being susceptible to requests for money etc. In fact, I actually do feel surprisingly detached. I am so pleased and relieved that DD and her baby are ok but, fundamentally, this doesn't change anything. We are close now but, when she goes back to Ireland with LB, and they are together 24/7, I have little doubt that the chasm will grow again, especially if her 'phone and internet use are restricted, as I suspect they will be. And yes, for those who enquired, DD's 'phone is the only route to internet access, so they share it. I believe LB has a pay as you go 'phone but, of course, he prefers to not pay as you go (sorry, that was a bit of a spiteful remark, wasn't it? Blush).

Dearblossom - thank you for your lovely, uplifting post. I I will look
into Taoism and I am also seeking to look forward, to have new adventures, even if DH is not by my side. It is what he would have wanted, I know.

Thank you, everyone, for all of your wonderful and helpful posts.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 24/01/2022 10:44

It's lovely and normal because she is away from him. I hope the hospital stay is a long well and she doesn't now to pressure to self discharge.

I don't know if you can speak to the midwives and them know they plan to disappear off to Ireland and live off grid so if there are any health concerns they need addressing in hospital 🤷🏽‍♀️

Diggersaursarethebest · 24/01/2022 11:33

I don’t understand why some posters think that going LC is the solution to Chopin’s problems. She already is fairly low contact through LBs choice? And has been even lower contact in the past. Why would choosing to not communicate with her daughter help her worries about her dd and Dgc’s welfare? It wouldn’t. Some posters just think it would make a good ending to the story. There’s no point berating OP for not magically fixing the situation by ´going LC’. This is OPs life and her complicated relationship with some very important people in her life. It’s not going to have an end. And certainly not one that fits neatly within a 40 page thread. She probably won’t post about this for the rest of her life but the situation is not going to disappear. Even if OP’s daughter leaves LB tomorrow, it’s still going to be a complicated series of uneasy relationships that OP might want to vent about sometimes.

Chopinandchampagne · 24/01/2022 12:08

Digger - thank you so much for your supportive post.

I think I have started about five threads in seven years. I may be wrong, but it is not a huge amount. I post when something occurs which upsets or worries me, because I value the support so much and it helps to have independent opinions, as well as clarifying my own thinking. But I don't go over the top in starting threads, at least I don't think I do. I did hesitate before starting this one, in case people thought 'Oh no, it is LB again, doesn't Chopin ever learn to deal with it?'. So it is a bit of an indulgence, but it is so helpful to me, and I guess that people can just ignore my threads or not post. I would quite understand it if they'd had enough of me - I get that it must seem like the same pattern, just repeating itself!

As you say, I am already LC with DD to an extent. I have only spent a couple of hours alone with her - when we went out to lunch in the summer - since June 2016, and very little time with DD and her family together. As I have said, we didn't even know about DGD1 for 14 months. My relationship with DD is better than it was, at least there is one, but I know that any relationship is dependent upon the whim of LB, which is not a nice feeling. She wants a relationship with me, but is prepared to forego it, if that what LB requires. In this, she shows her loyalty and devotion to him, but it makes me feel a bit 's**t'!

On the other hand, I am trying to detach - and succeeding to some extent - which is not the same thing. Some posters have previously suggested regarding DD as a sort of niece, family but not close, and I find that helpful. In the intensity of the worries about the birth and the euphoria afterwards, I could believe - perhaps we both could - that all was well and normal, but it was transitory.

She has sent me more photos and says all is fine, but she is going to make a formal complaint about the paediatrician, I don't know why, or whether it is justified, but she seems to have developed a hard edge since she has been with LB, which she didn't have before.

As you say, even if she were to leave LB, which I honestly don't see happening anytime soon, the relationships would remain uneasy, especially with her sisters. The trust has been damaged, there will always be a wariness which wasn't there before.

OP posts:
Chopinandchampagne · 24/01/2022 12:18

I think that, underlying it all, DD has a resentment towards me, fostered and inflamed by LB, who has obviously continued in his incessant criticism and running down of DD's family, and me in particular. So, the fact that she didn't have her family with her when she married, that DH knew DGD1 so briefly, the fact that she didn't spend more time with DH in his final years, the fact that she has no relationship with her sisters, could potentially be my fault. Otherwise, whose fault is it - hers or LB's, so I become a convenient scapegoat, but this clashes with her underlying love for me and the deep seated knowledge that actually I love her unconditionally and she can rely on me.

This is why wise posters, such as ESGdance have advised me to withdraw from the arena, so that any issues fall to be recognised and east with between them, rather than a convenient third party ie me. I am finally learning this lesson, but it has taken me a long time, I admit.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 24/01/2022 12:28

Chopin I hope posting here does help.

I think I see there is a slow change in how you respond to DD1 and in how you feel about it.

Managing to keep yourself out of the drama triangle and not playing into the hands of being scapegoat are key for the future relationship and to have hope of DD leaving one day.

When you are asking what could you have done differently/do differently in the future I think you've had wise counsel from many that I hope you have found helpful.

Sadly little surprise about the complaint. After all any issues could not possibly be about them choosing to risk DGS life and her own through their birth choices? Perhaps medics were supposed to shut up and not protect themselves by stating they were going against medical advice.

Just keep detaching and testing DD1 as a niece. Impossible not to feel like a Mum these last few weeks waiting for a very risky birth to occur.

Have you made any progress assessing which therapists to approach to screen them?

LadyEloise1 · 24/01/2022 14:47

I am so glad you could have the time with DD1 albeit on the phone.
LB probably knew that his wife was on the phone to you - he has her so isolated who else could it be. It would anger him. Sad
Could LB have decided that it would be financially advantageous to take an action against the paediatrician?
Money ( other people's) appears to be his God.

I so wish for a good outcome for you and your girls.
Unfortunately even if she leaves LB he will always be in your lives because of the grandchildren.

ESGdance · 24/01/2022 16:01

“She has sent me more photos and says all is fine, but she is going to make a formal complaint about the paediatrician, I don't know why, or whether it is justified,”

Here we go ….. the cliched PPD/NPD exploitation - they will escalate this to a court case no doubt using legal aid to extort money from the NHS. Be careful here because they may well call on your legal experience to support them or signpost them to legal aid. Please don’t enter into any dialogue as it is effectively colluding with the vexatious and litigious LB to blackmail the NHS. Your DD also doesn’t need her early W days, weeks and months with a new born polluted, shadowed and distracted with LBs latest all consuming obsession.

“I become a convenient scapegoat, but this clashes with her underlying love for me and the deep seated knowledge that actually I love her unconditionally and she can rely on me.”

Keep this front of mind. He can’t pull the love, dedication, support, encouragement, care, role modelling that you and your DH raised her with out of her heart - it’s within every cell of her being and her conscious and subconscious despite LBs efforts to the contrary. She knows what love, kindness and respect looks like - keeping on modelling that to her so that she is reminded and can clearly see the contrast in his behaviours.

UserBot999 · 24/01/2022 16:41

I also used to worry my son would be like his lobster father 🤣 perf3ctly understandable worry, but he is his own person!

UserBot999 · 24/01/2022 17:17

Teal Swan has a very good video about the need for a third party in the relationship. Probably overlaps with the drama triangle, so when posters are advising low contact @diggersaursarethebest it's more than just reducing the amount of contact. It's about being very strategic about not colluding with that "persecutor" role that LB try and project on to Chopin.

I know teal swan seems a bit floaty and wafty but her video on this subject was v good. A how not to collude with this.

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