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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
CharityDingle · 22/01/2022 14:30

Thinking of you @Chopinandchampagne can't begin to imagine the worry for you, about your daughter, and the impending birth.

I hope that all goes well.

NettleTea · 22/01/2022 15:43

just checking in to add my support and echo what everyone else is saying.

Chopinandchampagne · 23/01/2022 01:55

Thank you so much for all of your messages.

Update - DD1 has given birth to her baby son. I know this because I received three photos about an hour ago, showing DD asleep in a hospital bed, with DGS suckling. Both DD and DGS are wearing woolly hats and DD looks exhausted and very vulnerable. I am overjoyed that they are both apparently safe and well.

I had spoken to DD the previous evening ie Friday, when she called me back after missing my call to see how she was. Her waters had gone and she was in constant touch with the hospital, but she obviously wanted to talk to me. She was warm and loving, excited yet anxious about the birth, and said that she would let me know what happened.

So my first emotion is joy, sheer unadulterated joy, and immense relief. I messaged back immediately to say wonderful, how are you, how was it, congratulations to you both. Then, a few minutes later, I realised that LB must have sent the message (he shares her 'phone as it is their only access to the internet), as DD is clearly asleep in the photos. So I messaged again, saying I assume that he has sent the photos and how grateful I am, I really appreciate it, as I have been worried all day about DD, and such a relief to know that she and baby are safe.

And now, some time after that, I think that DD must have told LB that he should tell me that she and baby are ok, as she knows how worried I have been, so he has sent me these photos, the absolute minimum. No information or message at all, such as time of birth, weight of baby, or anything like that - just three photos, all the same, of DD asleep and exhausted. But at least she is alive and her baby (I can only see his blue hat) are obviously alive and ok.

I expect that I shall find out more later. For now, I am so, so relieved and I refuse to let LB spoil my joy. I have a bottle of champagne, which I did not feel like opening at Christmas/New Year, so I shall open it later, drink to the health of my DD and DGS, and hopefully better times ahead. It has been such a bumpy ride these last few years, that there have been times when I thought that DGS - or even DD - might not make it, given the history. So, whatever happens between us, I am so, so relieved and grateful that DD and DGS are ok.

And I cannot begin to tell you how much all of your support has meant to me, thank you!

OP posts:
SueblueNZ · 23/01/2022 03:19

That is wonderful. I'm sure getting a photo exceeded your expectations.
Enjoy your champagne - you have certainly earned it.
I'm sending you, your daughter and grandson best wishes from across the globe.

maras2 · 23/01/2022 04:52

To you and yours Bear Cake Bear Flowers Bear Wine Star.
Been with you from day one, here and Gransnet.
So happy for you. Mx.

Chopinandchampagne · 23/01/2022 05:08

Thank you so much!

LB did reply to my message, to say that it was a straightforward birth, both doing fine, and to give name of baby. His second name is after DH, which makes me very happy, but also very emotional, as DH is not here to share the news. I am joyful but crying.

I sent another nice message back, saying how pleased I was for them all, that DD had been very brave, that it must have been an anxious time for him, that it meant a lot that DGS has been named after DD's dad. I would like to think that it might herald a new beginning, a fresh start but, realistically, I am not holding my breath.

In the meantime, I propose to just let the emotions wash over me. It is Life, it is new life, and it shows, I think, how much DD really loved DH, as we all did. God, I wish he were here, with every fibre of my being, I miss him so much.

OP posts:
Billybagpuss · 23/01/2022 06:14

So happy for you and pleased they are both safe and I do hope you can enjoy some genuine moments with dd.

Don’t expect any change, it won’t happen especially while she is so weak. 💐

Chopinandchampagne · 23/01/2022 07:07

Sadly, I think you are right Billy, now that the initial euphoria has worn off. Given that it was a normal delivery, I have little doubt that they will be returning to Ireland as soon as possible, and well before there is any prospect of a potential visit from me.

Oh well, at least they are safe. I suddenly feel rather flat.

OP posts:
legosnowqueen · 23/01/2022 07:36

It's the best possible news @Chopinandchampagne, what a relief. You have had such a worrying few weeks thinking about the birth so you can put that behind you now, back to being cool, calm & collected. The bigger issue is of course still there but time for some self-care & support from & for your other DDs Thanks

maudmadrigal · 23/01/2022 08:01

I have been following your story, but never really feel I can add anything myself. I am so pleased that the your daughter and DGS are safe and well - you must be truly in a whirlwind of emotion, especially with his name.

I feel like it will be very hard for you to continue to detach with love over the next few days/weeks, but if you can, it continues to be the best approach. Emotions always run very high after a birth, and I think you will need support here and from your friends and other daughters.

The only nugget of experience I feel I can contribute is that I had a very risky and stressful pregnancy and birth some years ago. My babies and I were fine, but there was a huge adrenalin crash in the immediate aftermath as we dealt with our relief. Two of the four (imperfect, of course, but supportive and loving) grandparents behaved in uncharacteristic and difficult ways as they adjusted to the fact we were all OK - one became convinced that there was something terribly wrong with one of the babies that the doctors had missed and was fixated on this for a few days. I'm telling you this to illustrate how difficult the emotions can be after something like this has happened, and to encourage you to be gentle with yourself and recognise that you have been through a huge emotional upheaval as well as your daughter.

Thinking of you all Flowers

danny735 · 23/01/2022 08:15

I am so so pleased that DGS has arrived safely and that LB passed on the news.

You come across as such a loving and caring mother and grandmother. I think this shows that your DD1 knows that and appreciates it. Sending very best wishes to your family. X

Starfish1021 · 23/01/2022 09:09

What wonderful news. I’m not surprised you are feeling so many emotions. You have been through so much. Sadly as others have said, this is very unlikely to signify a significant change, so we awful as it is don’t put any rose tinted glasses on. As others have said lean on your other daughters and friends. Don’t hold in all this, it’s not fair on you.

RandomMess · 23/01/2022 09:09

Congratulations such a relief.

Never tell LB you are grateful again. "Thank you" is sufficient.

I imagine there are tough times ahead with the small holding disaster, hunker down with your younger DDs and DD1 endure the reality of 3 DC in isolation stuck with a LB having cocked up massively by buying it.

CharityDingle · 23/01/2022 09:19

So glad to hear all is well. Flowers

I know things continue to be difficult but at least you know that baby has arrived safely.

CraftyYankee · 23/01/2022 09:26

Congrats! Such a relief for you.

Be very careful of a "pay-per-view" offer if it comes right now. LB knows he has the ultimate carrot right now, and there are a lots of costs with the Ireland scheme.

That's not to say don't take the opportunity if it does arise, but think about the boundaries and parameters. It's terrible that you have to do this, but he is a terrible person.

Suzysuz · 23/01/2022 09:30

So glad to hear DD and DGS are okay 💐 watch for the sudden dip after this elation and relief, lean on your friends and try and move back to the grey rock position with DD1
I wasn't surprised at the pictures from LB, they meant no direct actual contact/words to you.... but then to get a message was interesting, I wondered if DD had asked him to send or actually, bring sceptical, had maybe DD1 wanted to tell you about the name and he took that and did it first so you didn't have that moment together....
You know there will be no softening with LB, that will never happen, it's moving back to grey rock, focussing on your own healing and being there for, hopefully when, DD1 sees her reality and wants out.

RandomMess · 23/01/2022 09:32

I think he deliberately chose a picture of DD looking weak and vulnerable not one of her smiling with joy holding her new son. Wonder why??? We all know why, to pull on your emotions ready for the either the next demand or to ensure you stay worried for her.

UserBot999 · 23/01/2022 09:34

Oh wow, glad the baby is here and your DD1 is ok!
He sent the photos because there was no reasonable excuse not to.

Xx

RandomMess · 23/01/2022 09:35

Also you bought the DGD daughters so I'm sure they get used for internet access too. It's just means he can keep tabs on DD1 all the time, even if you bought a 2nd phone he'd find a reason why they had to share one.

HollowTalk · 23/01/2022 09:58

Congratulations on your new grandson. I would really struggle with the fact that they are going back to Ireland without you seeing the baby though, particularly as his parents will be allowed to visit. I have a feeling that they will be asking for money soon and to be honest I wouldn't give them a penny. His parents must be ashamed of him.

UserBot999 · 23/01/2022 10:06

If @Chopinandchampagne doesn't offer money, then they have to ask. But that's going to be awkward for both of them.

Do they only have one phone that has internet connection on it? wow. So he gets to ask her to handover her phone whenever he needs the internet? Wow. I hope I've misunderstood that. She wouldn't even be able to google coercive control.

LadyEloise1 · 23/01/2022 10:11

Congratulations on the wonderful news that the birth went well and both Mum and baby are ok. Flowers

As @CraftyYankee says " be very careful of a "pay -per -view" offer......LB has the ultimate carrot......and there are a lot of costs with the Ireland scheme"

So true, sadly.

CraftyYankee · 23/01/2022 10:11

Asking for money in the past doesn't seem to have fazed them in the least. Self awareness and social norms are not LB's strong suit. 🙄

Dearblossom · 23/01/2022 12:07

Life goes on! What an amazing relief for you. Congratulations Granny!

I have only just come across this thread and read all of your messages through. You sound great. What a huge loss your DH's death must be but you have done year 1 and now deserve a medal and stripes on your shoulders. No-ones perfect. Don't let any LB let you feel otherwise. What a twat. Keep the faith you.

I am a fierce defender of my only child, DD, who I raised solo, and am sure I too would of thrown out a disagreeable boyfriend from my house. I had a nasty row with an ex of hers, he was controlling, we were in different countries at the time, when I returned, she found the strength to move on. Don't loose contact with her, keep paying that phone. Its your lifeline.

I think you should have some faith that your daughter may come to a decision about the future sooner than you may think. As the children grow even if she is home schooling she will be surely meeting some other homeschoolers. Or may fall in love with some sexy eyed Irish wood cutter who comes to cut trees and rescues her from LB ha ha. Just one friend close by could make all the difference. What could stop her making her own way forward? Embarrassment. Stockholm. All cash gone but to embarrassed to say. reliant on him. What if she knew she could leave and be set up ok? What if you keep a stash to one side for this eventually. You know what they say, build and they will come. Obviously this would have to be done carefully and I don't think your DD should know right now until she is stronger and becoming more frustrated with the situation as I hope she surely she must at some point. It sounds like you gave her wonderful childhood memories and she will be thinking of them more and more now she has three children as you did (think I got the numbers right). Would it be awful to play him at his own game without him even knowing.... pay per view, gahh I detest this man, he's really got my goat up on your behalf's.

Her having headphones is a good thing. It means she can listen to podcasts for example without him knowing what they are. I know others are saying don't buy them things etc etc. But. If you are paying for the phone contract anyway, maybe a phone each would be wise. iPads are verily useful for teaching smalls. Is your daughter anti social media too?

Then she can communicate with you far more easily and with headphones can have private conversations and also listen to anything she chooses. They will need some way to support homeschooling as the kids grow. Assisting with future IT purchases could ensure you have better communication with her (as she clearly does want, how lovely to hear her memories of Xmas with you) and gives her the option to manage when and how she does talk to you independently from twat features (sorry I can't but not). Also kids outgrow their parents IT knowledge pretty quickly these days which could be helpful longterm when checking on their welfare.

Does he take their one phone out with him? Is she left with no comms at all?

I'd continue to play 'horse whispering' with your daughter for the next year or so, it's working well. It sounds like she needs as stress free year as possible and I am so glad she did get her natural birth, hopefully that will give her some confidence in her own body back.

Build confidence with your comms gently, dare I say subtly. Make him think he has won and he is the master. He'll get comfy with that in time, then when he's not looking or expecting, what I would love to hear is that the time has come where you can all pull the rug out from under his feet. So to speak. Pride comes before a fall.

This could be a long story due to kids ages but not a forever story and in the meantime its for you now to discover and show all your girls and grandchildren from a distance what it means to love, to grieve, to rediscover oneself and heal. To grab life by the short and curlies.

Now then, what other holidays have you always dreamt of doing?! That Africa trip sounded amazing, stupid covid!

I've had a complicated time, many deaths etc, now a Granny to DGD1, therapists have helped in listening and my need to talk out. But Taoism, specifically 'Wu Wei Wisdom' lessons (youtube is your friend), have helped me pack my issues back up, nice and neatly and move forward, really excited about life at 50, whatever the challenge.

Your DD1 aside, I can feel a real excitement for you moving forwards. This is your time, all yours, say yes to all the adventures Flowers

Mix56 · 23/01/2022 12:08

So relieved that mother & baby are OK.
My bet is LB has the phone most if the time. He can check who she calls & reads her messages.
He may even see your Amazon purchases !

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