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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
MondayTuesdayWednesday · 20/01/2022 19:03

@Chopinandchampagne your response was perfect and you are right that this is not the time to make a stand.

2 weeks is usually the max they allow you to go over your due date without induction or c-section so I think you are right that her doctors will recommend that she has a c-section if she can’t be induced because of her history. I’m sure you are on edge waiting to her news and I hope that they contact you as soon as they can rather than leaving you waiting.

CraftyYankee · 20/01/2022 19:06

@Chopinandchampagne

Thanks everyone. She does have my Amazon password. I have just realised that, if she looks at my order history, she will see that earlier this week I purchased the Kindle edition of 'Paranoid Personality Disorder'! Confused
There's actually a kind of karmic elegance to that...

Hope it all goes well. No question though that DD1 will be ordering wireless noise cancelling headphones, not some £5 ASDA equivalent.

DaggerIsle · 20/01/2022 19:19

I know it is petty but I'd be curious to know how much she spent on those headphones...

RandomMess · 20/01/2022 19:22

@MrsPotatoHead22 LB = Lobster Boy, I think it was the first time DD1 had brought him home as a boyfriend and they all went out for a meal.

As well as concerning behaviour he ordered lobster the most expensive thing on the menu!

tribpot · 20/01/2022 19:35

But I just want her to have something to make her feel a bit more comfortable at this difficult time.
Well one thing she could do to make herself more comfortable at this difficult time is follow medical advice and have an elective section.

Do you think those headphones really were for her? Or did LB want them and tell her to ask for them? ('Ask' is bit of a strong term). I appreciate this is an incredibly difficult time to be trying to put some boundaries in place with her, but when isn't? When she has a newborn at home, when she's trying to survive in a farmhouse in the middle of nowhere ... there will never be a time when you won't feel you should cut her some slack, because that's how she engineers it (or he does, or they do).

I can't get over the absolute nerve of her and the essential oils, after the crap she dished out about the Christmas presents. This will never change until you change it - they have you where they want you.

OrangeBlossomsinthesun · 20/01/2022 19:49

Will they even arrive on time, even with Prime, if she's supposed to having a baby any minute?

SirVixofVixHall · 20/01/2022 23:04

@RandomMess

Once she's purchased it change your password.

When she next asks for something tell her you had a fraud alert/issue and that then makes it easier for her to send £ and link for what she wants and you buy.

2 birds with one stone.

I agree with this. I feel pretty angry at the casual asking for headphones after that horrible note. I also slightly wonder whether the birth issue is even true or exaggerated to manipulate you, which does say something about how she comes across. The total lack of any shame or self awareness is quite strange, like a fourteen year old, there is a parenting book on teens , the title is something like “ Get out of my life but first drive Jimmy and me to town” ? That is typical teenage selfishness, but this is a thirty old mother, it is very far from normal behaviour.
SirVixofVixHall · 20/01/2022 23:05

I also agree that you need to make her truly see her situation, and start to resent LB for it.

Mix56 · 21/01/2022 09:07

Also, when will she have occasion to wear these head phones, in real life, with a new born & 2 toddlers?
Maybe briefly in hospital.. if they arrive before the birth? & then if LB takes them in to hosp for her

Snorkmaidenn · 21/01/2022 14:19

Firstly I would say how sorry I am for your loss of your husband. Also, that you are still grieving and cannot possibly deal with this added stress. Nobody could. This will take some time until you get used to situation of your husband not being around anymore. You need to grieve which could take a few years.

Personally I don't think your daughter's marriage will last and in fact she is probably grieving also, so can't see the wood for the trees.
Is her husband a good father?
Anyway, I think she will grow more and more unhappy with her life as time goes by. All you can do is look after yourself until this happens.
Take care.

oakleaffy · 21/01/2022 15:06

@Chopinandchampagne
I too have read your other posts and been appalled at how you are being manipulated and used by this ghastly pair.
Your daughter sounds absolutely under the thumb of that ghastly son in law.

I'm so sorry you are going through this drama.

He {SIL } sounds a nasty little man.
Please don't give any more funds !

I worked with a nasty person once who said of their own mother
''It's as easy as milking a cow'' {To get money out of her}
Some people are just grabby, and your daughter sounds a bit like this, doubtless egged on by her awful husband.

At least you have other DC..I'd take solace from them, and please don't let yourself get manipulated by this situation.

Mix56 · 21/01/2022 15:09

If you speak to her before the birth, as opposed to text, as it may be LB who has her phone.
You must be very firm (as in Lawyer , not Mother )& tell her she must not leave the hospital before the medical staff give the go ahead. LB will just have to deal with the kids, (his parents are most likely already doing this anyway.)
Her health & even her life may depend on it.

Starfish1021 · 21/01/2022 18:15

I’ve been lurking for a while. I’m so sorry to hear about the loss of your DH. What a huge loss. I feel so much anger at every post. The note your daughter sent you about the Christmas presents was so abusive. I completely understand that she is in an abusive relationship. But she is also choosing on some level to act in this way. Anyway, I just wanted to say I’m so sorry for your loss. I do hope that your daughter safely delivers her baby, but do as many others have said, grey rock all the way. I think finding a good therapist will be critical for setting heathy boundaries. Enjoy time with your other daughters.

forrestgreen · 21/01/2022 20:03

I'm not sure how much money she asks you to spend on your Amazon account.
If it's more than the £79, you could buy her the subscription as a useful birthday present??
Stops her begging/manipulating you

Cstring · 21/01/2022 20:29

@SirVixofVixHall

I also agree that you need to make her truly see her situation, and start to resent LB for it.
Yes to this. Has there ever been a discussion as to why she can’t set up her own Amazon prime account, and order her own books, oils and headphones? It’s utterly bizarre than a grown adult woman asks her mother for these items. These are small items. Even if you said ‘yes of course you can darling but why can’t you set your own account up?’. She’s practically just holding her hand out to you, whilst sticking two figures up to you about your Xmas gifts. I think she needs to be made to confront the reality of her situation somewhat.
RandomMess · 21/01/2022 20:37

I'm think of you so much today Chopin I really hope there is news soon of DD & DGS I can only imagine how worried you are for their health Thanks

ESGdance · 21/01/2022 20:52

Thinking of you and wishing you strength, courage and peace and a safe and comfortable birth for your DGS and DD1.

Jk24 · 21/01/2022 22:22

I too agree with the posters who ask why dd doesn't have her own amazon account? Very strange indeed. Especially given where they live... or does she have one but knows you will allow her to spend on yours? I know this is a small issue in the grand scheme of things but it is a strange one

Songlyrics · 22/01/2022 01:09

@Chopinandchampagne

I've read your threads before and always remembered them, so I'm very sorry to read this thread and see that you are still in this position.

Firstly, I hope your DD1 is doing well with her pregnancy and delivery, but I just wanted to say that the love, care and patience you have for your daughters is palpable. I am only a few years older than your DD1 and if either of my parents had given me the love and support that you have clearly given to your children, I would now be a very different person. You are clearly offering your children friendship as well as maternal love and support. I cannot imagine what that feels like to receive, but from my perspective, a child could not rightly ask for any more from a parent. Therefore nothing you have done, or haven't done, will have been the cause of any of the issues have you had with your DD1 and LB. It is entirely on them. You have offered and continue to offer what any adult child could only dream of recieving from their parents, and to have it thrown back in your face says a great deal about your DD1 and LB, and is no reflection on you or your handling of the situation.

I, like many others, think that although your DD may be selfish, she is being controlled by LB, and so all you can do is offer support, where she can come to you without you chasing, and hope that one day she sees what's happening to her and finds a way to leave LB.

My DB's first wife was very controlling. She hated everyone in our family as she saw his love and affection as finite, and so we were her competition. He was not allowed to see us. If he did visit (at Christmas, etc.) he was not allowed to hug us. She was possessive and competitive and ultimately, refused to have children with him as she viewed them as competition, too. I wonder if LB sees his DC in such a way? He sounds fiercely possessive with a terribly fragile ego. His DC give him status and control but as they grow and voice their own opinions, as they challenge him and your DD is forced to take sides, things may come to a head. It is for that reason that I'd let your DD know the door is always open, whilst taking a step back.

For me, the step back would include no more gifts for DD or the DGC. Instead, I'd put money into an account for each child. My DGF did this as we only saw him once every few years growing up, and it was such a help to me, funding my driving lessons and wedding when I was otherwise from a very low income family. So although there is not the pleasure in giving clothing or toys, there is still a lot your DGC would have to be greatful for.

Re: Paranoid Personality Disorder, a member of my family had this. In his case, he was also the one with the wealth, and he used that wealth to coerce and control. It was a carrot he'd dangle in your face, but he'd never let anyone have it otherwise his power would be gone. He was abusive to his wife, children and grandchildren, insensible to all reason and only got worse with age. He was spiteful and incapable of seeing things from the perspective of others. If challenged on his views or behaviour, he would experience great distress and his sense of grandeur meant that his feelings trumped all others'. It caused his wife to have to secretly reach out to other family members, offering morsels of affection where he otherwise denied her from showing her true feelings.

This may be part of the issue with your DD1, where she fluctuates in her behaviour towards you. She may be towing LB's line whilst trying to express her own feelings alongside his. Only she will know, which, as her loving mother, means you will give her the benefit of the doubt when she may not deserve it, but in doing so, you are doing all that you can and it needs to be enough. For your own sake, and for the sake of your younger daughters.

I hope things go well with the baby and that you are able to resolve matters with your French property. Sorry for the long post. I just can't help reading and seeing what a wonderful mother you must be, and thinking it very unfair that it's thrown back in your face when there are people who would give anything to have what you are offering.

Billybagpuss · 22/01/2022 06:40

For me, the step back would include no more gifts for DD or the DGC. Instead, I'd put money into an account for each child. My DGF did this as we only saw him once every few years growing up, and it was such a help to me, funding my driving lessons and wedding when I was otherwise from a very low income family. So although there is not the pleasure in giving clothing or toys, there is still a lot your DGC would have to be greatful for

This is a really good idea (and great post @Songlyrics as they are unlikely to ever have any money for these sort of things. They’ll have the whiskey when they’re 25, but this is possibly a better idea than gifts for birthdays and Christmas.

They’re also unlikely to be allowed to ‘dream’ of what sort of career they would like so this might be able to fund training for them.

I also don’t think it can be done and I hope that she is able to see sense and escape in your lifetime, but is there any way some escape funds can be set aside that she doesn’t know about for the future?

UserBot999 · 22/01/2022 07:43

@Jk24

I too agree with the posters who ask why dd doesn't have her own amazon account? Very strange indeed. Especially given where they live... or does she have one but knows you will allow her to spend on yours? I know this is a small issue in the grand scheme of things but it is a strange one
Because her husband is mean and her nother is generous.
Jk24 · 22/01/2022 09:43

@UserBot999 very true

laternights · 22/01/2022 11:16

@Chopinandchampagne I have only read some of your threads over Christmas but caught up this morning, as someone just a bit older than your DD1 I am so in awe of your love, grace, and thoughtfulness in the face of your grief and such a difficult situation.

I had my own LB, and I'm ashamed to say I see so many parallels in what I went through, though I was wise to the situation before long so it only lasted about 6 months. Although the relationship with my mother was damaged, it was easy to repair and is now stronger than ever. I think this was due to my mothers understanding and support that we weren't dealing with a normal situation, a normal person, it was someone who would go to the ends of the world to isolate me and extort them, and he would stop for nothing and no-one.

I recently watched "the Puppet Master" on Netflix, and while the show is about a conman whose manipulating was much beyond what I went through (he isolated the main subject for 10 years of her life as he extorted her parents through scripted communication), it really helped me make sense of how these people work and gave me some comfort in what I went through.

Stay strong, you're obviously a remarkable woman with a loving family. I'm crossing everything the birth of DGC3 goes well xxx

UserBot999 · 22/01/2022 13:46

Wow, I must watch that. I'd be ready for it now. For so long I couldn't watch or read anything to do with manipulation or triangulation or coercion but now I can appreciate things with these themes. It takes a while to get the distance required to ''enjoy'' these shows as entertainment. I watched the maid recently, with my 18 year old daughter, when the character of Alex ended up back where she started in episode 8, so quite late in the series, and when she disappeared in to the old couch like she didn't exist, I was in floods of tears watching it. My dd said ''how can you be crying? how can you compare yourself to her? you had granddad and glamma to help you'' but I just remember how cornered I felt and how hard it was to stop caring about how my x viewed my actions and just get away anyway.

I think that Chopin's daughter is going to kick lobster boy to the kerb within 18 months. In one way LB is a ''genius'' isolating her from everybody but the flip side is there'll be nothing for her to feel conflicted about, nothing to miss if she does give up and return home. Her children won't be involved in local activities, they won't have strong friendships, neither will she. She won't have colleagues. I bet you anything she won't even know anybody from yoga/book club/running club. Nothing. They'll all be living like hermits with lobster boy. In the end, DD1 will be so practical resourceful and logical, she'll have a fucking epiphany one day while she's tilling his 'land' and he's on the sofa with a cup of tea - still not happy despite the fact that everything revolves around his demands.

Apologies for the tonne of projections in that prediction.

UserBot999 · 22/01/2022 13:58

@Chopinandchampagne please forgive the tangents I've made here.
When your daughter has had the baby and if and when she ever visits you, a good way to empower her is to put her in situations where she has to make decisions. Shall we go out for lunch or for dinner? Thai or Italian? Zip lining or white water rafting :-p My first psychotherapist said something off the cuff really but it was about self-efficacy and how going ahead and making a decision can help you feel like you have control over your life. Making smaller decisions sends the message back to 'core' that you are in control of you. It helps me now. When I feel powerless I put myself in a decision where I go and make a decision and act on it and it does work. I suppose it's like engaging your inner warrior! I love all that stuff. (archetypes. I love it now, my x would have p155ed on it and sapped all the joy out of it, certainly wouldn't have allowed me to buy a book about archetypes!).

Anyway, wishing this baby a safe delivery xxx

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