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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
SirVixofVixHall · 15/01/2022 17:43

Why can’t he make such a small sacrifice for the sake of his wife
Because he doesn’t love her, she is a possession. The babies are a way to tie her down and keep her dependent. He is not capable of love, and only interested in himself, his power and control.

RandomMess · 15/01/2022 17:47

When she states "he is my husband" what she is really informing you is that either she has 0 say, or she is hiding behind that excuse.

GooseberryJam · 15/01/2022 18:02

Chopin, I would have a look on the BACP website, which you can search here by area and also for the kinds of specialism you are interested in:

www.bacp.co.uk/search/Therapists

I found my counsellor this way and they did me a tremendous amount of good in a period of immense difficulty in my life. I looked at a few people but felt this was one I was drawn to.

You're doing really well in sticking with short upbeat messages. I do think this is best for your own protection but also reminds DD1 that you and your love for her are always there.

ESGdance · 15/01/2022 19:26

Chopin please know that you are winning every moment / day / week that she keeps in contact.

This is a huge and very hard won achievement - this is the sole goal for now. There are no other options - and every call and text from her will have him spitting bullets.

Be realistic about that and self compassionate about how torturous and excruciating it is just to maintain this tight rope stance - especially whilst your own world has turned inside out and upside down with the sudden, devastating and untimely death of your lovely husband.

Take care of your own precious heart and know that the foundations of love, respect, values, kindness and dignity were given to your DD by you and your DH. She has these to draw on in time - this is all inside her and he can’t take that away - she will give these to your DGCs and once he starts denying them these foundations she will instinctively know to leave.

LadyEloise1 · 15/01/2022 20:14

Super post from @ESGdance.
Insightful posts too from @SirVixofVixHall, @RandomMess and @Billybagpuss.

Such wise and eloquent posters.

RandomMess · 15/01/2022 20:16

I agree that you are winning that DD does very much want contact with you.

Reality will hit hard for her when in Ireland and she can't do that financially and because she has a 3rd child to look after.

Keep on keeping on Thanks

MakeItRain · 15/01/2022 22:28

I've read your posts over the years. I was married to a similar character who tried his best to wreck my relationship with my mum and my closest friend. My mum actually said "I thought I'd lost you". Years later I'm divorced, happy on my own and have a very close relationship with my mum. My advice to you is to keep up the contact even though it's draining and difficult. I think my ex eventually realised that he couldn't quite break our relationship and although looking back it felt very weak and distant, it was important that it continued. It was my mum who was key in helping me to make the decision to leave. Looking back, my mum and I had such a strained and difficult relationship throughout my marriage and my ex was awful to her, but despite that our contact was more important than I could ever convey. And more important than even I realised at the time. Flowers

UserBot314159 · 15/01/2022 22:41

@SirVixofVixHall

Why can’t he make such a small sacrifice for the sake of his wife Because he doesn’t love her, she is a possession. The babies are a way to tie her down and keep her dependent. He is not capable of love, and only interested in himself, his power and control.
I agree, he cannot put up with you for the occasional weekend because that would give your DD options. He demands that she nail his colours to her mast. She cannot sit on any fence here. That just wouldnt work for him. If he gives orders he needs them to be obeyed.

I said upthread, after i left my abusive he, he spoke to my father and revealed that hecwas angry with my dad for taking me in. Afterall how could he bring me back to heel if i had somewhere to go. My dad said "i should have left her to your tender mercies should i?" and my x was frustrated with my dad for not understanding his pov!

I agree that "he is my husband" means "im powerless here, please dont put pressure on me".

MakeItRain · 15/01/2022 23:02

I agree that "he is my husband" means "i'm powerless here, please dont put pressure on me"

Yes that's so true. I used that line too, and that's exactly what I meant. Sad

Loulouli · 15/01/2022 23:44

Chopin, not sure of this is helpful but maybe this form of therapy might be interesting for you: edpsy.org.uk/blog/2018/short-introduction-narrative-therapy/

ESGdance · 16/01/2022 00:00

I wonder if any of this resonates.

“What are the symptoms of paranoid personality disorder?

People with PPD are always on guard, believing that others are constantly trying to demean, harm, or threaten them. These generally unfounded beliefs, as well as their habits of blame and distrust, interfere with their ability to form close or even workable relationships. People with this disorder:

•	Doubt the commitment, loyalty, or trustworthiness of others, believing others are exploiting or deceiving them.

•	Are reluctant to confide in others or reveal personal information because they are afraid the information will be used against them.

•	Are unforgiving and hold grudges.

•	Are hypersensitive and take criticism poorly.

•	Read hidden meanings in the innocent remarks or casual looks of others.

•	Perceive attacks on their character that are not apparent to others; they generally react with anger and are quick to retaliate.

•	Have persistent suspicions, without reason, that their spouses or lovers are being unfaithful.

•	Are generally cold and distant in their relationships with others, and might become controlling and jealous to avoid being betrayed.

•	Cannot see their role in problems or conflicts, believing they are always right.

•	Have difficulty relaxing.

•	Are hostile, stubborn, and argumentative.

•	Tend to develop negative stereotypes of others, especially those from different cultural groups.

What are the complications of paranoid personality disorder?

The thinking and behaviors associated with PPD can interfere with a person’s ability to form and maintain relationships, as well as their ability to function socially and in work situations.

In many cases, people with PPD become involved in legal battles, suing people or companies they believe are "out to get them."

tara66 · 16/01/2022 00:12

Just a few words about selling property in France, which you mentioned - I don't know if you are following the market but it is selling very well at the moment. You will know in past it can have taken years to sell anything. I am completing sale soon on a house that has been for sale a very short time close to asking price. I have only been able to go there for a total of 2 months since Aug. 2019. I have given Notaire's Clerc POA to complete sale for me and am not going back t again. My daughter lives fairly nearby and is handling the ''clear out'' etc. I do think , however, that with Covid, Brexit and Schengen Visas - a lot of Brits will be selling up too.

LessTime · 16/01/2022 02:04

Just caught up,with this thread. I read the first LB thread and was one of the first to post on it (different name). It's so sad that it's continued.

Ohfortheloveofgodwhatnow · 16/01/2022 08:02

Keep that lifeline to your DD @Chopinandchampagne , she’s very enmeshed with him at the moment but his grip will loosen as she mixes with school mums etc. He won’t exert the same influence in time and she’ll see how other mums/wives are living. Hang in from a distance. Keep it loving and affectionate but hold back a bit (especially with the gifts).
Really interesting post from @MakeItRain - I hope your DD makes the same escape one day.
Be sure to keep the door ajar for when she does.

BorsetshireBanality · 16/01/2022 12:44

Doesn’t LB want her to home school?

RandomMess · 16/01/2022 13:19

Yep Sad

Ohfortheloveofgodwhatnow · 17/01/2022 14:22

@BorsetshireBanality

Doesn’t LB want her to home school?
Oh god, yes I missed that detail. Yes of course he bloody well wants to - he’s a joy isn’t he Sad
Chopinandchampagne · 17/01/2022 16:01

Thank you so much everyone!

RandomMess and GooseberryJam - many thanks for the tips on finding a new therapist, which I am researching.

Billybagpuss - What you say makes sense, even if it is difficult to hear, I know that you are right. If I am not allowed to see DGS, then that will be a turning point and I will need to rethink my will etc. After all that happened with DH, who was a lovely Dad to all of his DDs - and they all say so - I can't believe that she is still perpetuating this disregard and cruelty towards me, her sisters, and her grandmother. Sometimes, she seems to care and, at others, it's as though she really, really, doesn't. As Random says, either she doesn't actually care and makes excuses, or isn't allowed to care. I genuinely don't know which it is. When she has spent prolonged periods just with LB, she leans more to the latter, so sadly I don't expect the situation to improve. Probably the truth is somewhere in between, that she does care, but not enough to 'rock the boat' with LB - we are not worth the aggro, not relationships worth fighting for.

ESGdance - incredible advice, as ever, thank you. Your description of the criteria for 'Paranoid Personality Disorder' are absolutely LB, every single one of them describes him exactly, a 'text book' case. I have been reading into it more, since your post, and it explains so many things. It has really helped focus my thinking, as I see exactly how he thinks, which informs how he behaves.

Apparently, 'Narcissistic Personality Disorder,' is also closely related and it all makes perfect sense - the inability to let go of a grudge, the hypersensitivity to any perceived criticism, even when none was intended, the grandiose ideas, the paranoia and conspiracy theories, the inability to accept any blame for anything, feeling that he is always right and that the world is against him, the inability to form friendships or hold down a job, the suspicion and controlling behaviour, the dismissal of certain groups of society, the lack of empathy or compassion, the distrust of professionals or any authority figures, the need for isolation from a hostile world etc. This is LB, 100%.

The unfortunate aspect is that it appears that it is not a condition which can be cured and, if anything, it can become worse over time, according to the research. Psychotherapy can improve and control the symptoms, to an extent, but the problem is that many people with PPD won't agree to treatment, because they don't accept that they have a problem. They believe that everyone else is the problem.

SirVixofVixhall - I know that, fundamentally, you are right, that DD and the DC are just LB's possessions. If he really loved them, he wouldn't want them to be cut off from people who would love and care for them.

tara66 - thanks for this advice, you are right that I need to crack on with trying to sell the French property.

MakeitRain and UserBot314159 - thank you so much for your contributions - maybe one day DD will get away, but sadly I am coming to the conclusion that it is unlikely to be anytime soon.

Regarding any prospect of DD mixing or meeting other mums at the school gates etc, I fear that this is unlikely to happen, if LB and DD decide to home school, which they are currently minded to do. This means that the DC, as well as DD, will be totally isolated.

This thread has helped me so much, thank you!

In the meantime, no developments - DD is due to see the midwife again on Wednesday.

OP posts:
UserBot999 · 17/01/2022 16:44

@BorsetshireBanality

Doesn’t LB want her to home school?
LB might go off the idea when he realises he has to register with Tusla and demonstrate that he has safe, warm space for teaching. They would be investigating that there was heating, water, good light etc. They'd be investigating his philosophy on home schooling. If he didn't co-operate with all of this, children's allowance could be suspended.

I never fancied the idea myself Confused whyyyy but if LB thinks he can simply opt out of school without being answerable to anybody he will be getting a shock. I'd like to be a fly on the wall.

CraftyYankee · 17/01/2022 16:58

Is Tusla the Irish authority? I'd be surprised if the Ireland experiment lasts too long, they may well be back in the UK before starting any kind of homeschooling.

Of course if the Irish property is a failure it won't be LB's fault. It never is.

LadyEloise1 · 17/01/2022 18:04

Yes Tusla is the Irish Child and Family Agency. It is the dedicated State agency responsible for improving wellbeing and outcomes for children.
You might like a quick glance at their website @Chopinandchampagne - it's tusla.ie

tibradden · 17/01/2022 19:03

Apologies for derailing the thread. After having dealings with Tusla over many many years, the bar for intervention by Tusla is very low. I would not expect Tusla to do anything as the children outwardly are not being neglected.

Mix56 · 17/01/2022 19:06

They might be a concerned family member who asks for intervention? ...

ESGdance · 18/01/2022 07:18

Another random thing that has popped into my head - your DD said that they were thinking of not telling people when she went into labour this time - think she said about LBs GF - but they may well not tell you and he may not let her contact you just to wield power and punish you, as communication is the only thing you have. I am just thinking how far will he go to worry you and cause distress.

SirVixofVixHall · 18/01/2022 09:38

@Ohfortheloveofgodwhatnow

Keep that lifeline to your DD *@Chopinandchampagne* , she’s very enmeshed with him at the moment but his grip will loosen as she mixes with school mums etc. He won’t exert the same influence in time and she’ll see how other mums/wives are living. Hang in from a distance. Keep it loving and affectionate but hold back a bit (especially with the gifts). Really interesting post from *@MakeItRain* - I hope your DD makes the same escape one day. Be sure to keep the door ajar for when she does.
I think they intend to home school the children, so Chopin’s dd will not be mixing with other mothers.
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