Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
Chopinandchampagne · 24/12/2021 09:14

Thank you so much for your lovely supportive posts, which always make me feel better!

After a week's silence and no response to my message about the unwanted gifts, I received a message asking if the parcel had arrived. It hadn't arrived, but it did arrive the next day. It contained a home made cake for me and vegan shortbread for DD2 and DD3, all beautifully wrapped and it was obvious that a lot of time and effort had been put in. So of course I said how delighted we were and thank you (I was too polite to mention that DD3 couldn't eat the shortbread, as it is not gluten free Grin ). So it was lovely to receive, and I would like to believe that love was one of the ingredients.

I have decided to avoid any remotely controversial topic and keep it bright and breezy and short, as others have suggested. I am still struggling, but feeling better than I was. I am just hanging out with DD2 and DD3, we are going to do some baking and preparation today for tomorrow, followed by some Christmas films (maybe 'The Grinch' Grin )

I have also been reading 'Men who hate women and the women who love them', by Dr Susan Forward, which I have found helpful, if not exactly comforting. It addresses issues such as caretakers, rescuers and Stockholm syndrome, and also points out that, as the woman's world becomes smaller (family and friends having been seen off), the 'abuser' inevitably becomes ever more dominant and central to her life, as her dependency increases. Pretty much what you wise owls have been telling me all along! The phrase which resonated with me was that there is no point in trying to communicate with a misogynist as 'It's a lot like trying to teach a bull to sing. It doesn't work and it irritates the bull'!

I would like to wish everyone a very Happy Christmas and just to say how much I have truly valued your support and encouragement on this and my previous threads, where you have just kept me going. I hope that the New Year brings joy and good things for all of you.

OP posts:
coraka · 24/12/2021 11:41

Merry Christmas Chopin. Wishing you peace and joy and healing.

HappyGoLuckyLuLu · 24/12/2021 11:46

Merry Xmas & best plan going forwards is definitely bright & breezy offering love and so she knows you'll always be there if she need you. (Just not for things he is trying to achieve coercively.)

Your best long-game bet is to not let him see you off so that you are still someone she can come to should she ever want/need to. (But please make sure to protect yourself from the inevitable mud slinging that may come along the way and continued efforts to abuse and extort from you along the way.)

LadyEloise1 · 24/12/2021 13:11

Wishing you a Happy Christmas @Chopinandchampagne.
May 2022 bring you happier times.

Great advice from HappyGoLuckyLuLu

legosnowqueen · 24/12/2021 16:12

Merry Christmas @Chopinandchampagne I hope that you have a lovely time with your family. Best wishes for a happy & healthy 2022

ITakeCharge · 24/12/2021 16:40

So DD1 complains that you don't really know her and sent inappropriate gifts - the scented candles, wrong fabric pajamas etc..........and then she sends her sisters shortbread that one of them can't eat as it's not gluten free........OK
LB is not the only one playing this game
No advice beyond what has been said by other posters about stepping back and waiting for her to come to you when and if she is ready to leave
I have followed your story from the beginning though not posted much, so sorry this is ongoing
I hope you enjoy Christmas with your other daughters and best wishes for the new year

Noshowlomo · 24/12/2021 16:44

Merry Christmas @Chopinandchampagne xx

WhoAre · 24/12/2021 17:27

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

ESGdance · 24/12/2021 18:17

Wishing you gentle peace and loving calm with you daughters at this lonely time for you all. It is very early days in your grief journey but I hope that the warmth you have for each other will bring comfort, healing and joy.

I can see a possible non verbal secret subliminal message from your DD1 to you all through her gifts which maybe she can’t express whilst she continues to appease her abuser. I think that there is hope that she knows you love her deeply and she loves you all. She will need this chink of light as her life progresses to spiral and close down in his dark world. It’s finding that precise balance of stepping right back keeping sufficient distance and bland interaction to keep yourself emotionally safe and having the space to focus and heal your own life and have an escape route for her for the future because he wants to goad you into having that door slammed shut. But I think that this has very many years to play out in reality and I wouldn’t expend all my energy and focus hoping, wishing and waiting.

Enjoy your girls and surround yourself with lovely friends and family. Take care.

SpringCrocus · 24/12/2021 20:16

Wishing you and your DDs a peaceful and happy Christmas

BluebellCockleshell123 · 24/12/2021 23:52

Dear Chopin. I’m sure this Christmas is going to be a very emotional time for you but I hope you can enjoy your quiet time with DD2&3 and squeeze as much joy as you can out of every circumstance. I’m glad that DD1’s presents arrived - they do sound thoughtful even if the gluten allergy was not well thought out!
I’m glad that you are still posting here and receiving such great advice from much more wise and experienced posters than me. I hope the new year is a peaceful time for you. Sending strength and very best wishes. Xx

Whatsdamatta · 25/12/2021 07:59

Happy Christmas @Chopinandchampagne
Keep that link to DD1 and Dgd’s going but protect yourself emotionally and financially.
You’re doing great despite all you’ve been through. Have a lovely day today with your girls.

strawberry2017 · 25/12/2021 16:44

I have read all your posts and I just want to give your DD such a shake.
Her behaviour frustrates me so much, how can she be so thoughtless so often.
Even if she hated the presents she could have just said thank you and been nice about it.
I worry for her children. The future they have.

Sending you so much love and strength x

youvegottenminuteslynn · 25/12/2021 19:53

Merry Christmas @Chopinandchampagne - there are lots of us thinking of you today and willing you on after your terribly tough year. You're incredibly strong Thanks

St0rmTr00per · 26/12/2021 23:57

Merry Christmas

SirVixofVixHall · 28/12/2021 11:49

The one thing I want to add is that the pattern of cruel or unkind thing being followed by a nice thing is very, very familiar to anyone with experience of abuse.
The nice thing happening when you withdraw or are hurt by the cruel thing.
So I would be very aware of this Chopin, as this is the way you are being treated . Your dd may be copying LB in this pattern of behaviour, but it is very effective in breaking down defences and controlling people. The relief of the nice thing after the pain of the cruel thing.

I am even more convinced that proper disengagement from this abusive situation is the thing that will protect you and keep you resilient for both your own emotional well-being, and hopefully the time when you dd will need help leaving.

Chopinandchampagne · 29/12/2021 05:00

Thank you HappyGoLuckyLuLu, ITakeCharge, ESGdance, BluebellCockleshell123, Whatsdamatta, strawberry2017, and everyone else for your kind messages. I am really touched that you have taken time to remember me and to send a message at this busy time of year. I hope that you all had a lovely Christmas, with those you love.

I had a busy and happy day with DD2 and DD3 on Christmas Day, with various calls and messages from family and friends, although unfortunately MIL is back in hospital.

DD1 called and was totally different from the previous time we spoke. She said thank you for the DGDs' gifts, that they really liked the train set etc. She said she realised this must be a difficult day for me, as I would be thinking about Dad. She sounded genuinely caring and loving, finishing off with 'I love you'. Mindful of our last conversation, I said that her Dad wouldn't want her to feel guilty about anything and nor did I, that he had loved her from the moment she was born until the day he died. He would have wanted her to be happy and so did I.

It wasn't too long a conversation and I was pleased that it went well, but also relieved when it was over. I am not at all sure that I would have called her, otherwise. DD2 had previously suggested FaceTiming her but, on the actual day, said that she was too busy, and DD3 just didn't want to know. In fact, DD1 tried to call about three times whilst we were in the process of FaceTiming DH's sister, and DD3 kept clicking 'ignore' and was clearly irritated by the interruption.

I don't think I would have called DD1 myself, unless as part of a FaceTime with DD2 and DD3, as I wouldn't want to have the whole day upset by an unpleasant exchange. I also recall the conversation on Christmas Day, three years ago, where DD1, who was semi-estranged at the time (was barely in contact, living at an undisclosed address, married and had DGD1, all unbeknown to us), took the opportunity to complain how we never helped them financially, and why couldn't we just give them 'a leg up'. I did discuss helping her financially with the cost of the PGCE, which we subsequently did, but it was not an appropriate conversation for Christmas Day and slightly took the gloss off it. It was the first call I had received from her in months and my pleasure at receiving the call and hearing her voice was dampened by the content of the conversation. Since then, I have been very wary of calls with her on special days. Anyway, in the event, it was all fine.

I think that those of you who have advised me to protect myself and my health from all of the stress are right. I was very tired towards the end of Christmas Day and, on Boxing Day, I was wiped out and exhausted with griping stomach pains, nausea, sickness and upset tummy (stress usually hits me in the stomach). I slept, off and on, for 30 hours and did not eat for that period. I felt so weak. However, since then, I am pleased to say that I am feeling very much better and generally much stronger.

SirVixofVixHall - I think that you are absolutely right in what you say about alternating kindness and cruelty as a means of control/abuse. However, whereas I can't exactly detach myself, as she is my DD, I do feel that I have more clarity of vision now. The previous conversation, where DD implied that I would not be able to see DGS unless I wrote some sort of grovelling letter to LB, made me realise beyond doubt that, however much I think things have improved or moved on, or that my relationship with DD is getting stronger, as soon as LB pulls the strings, she will be dancing to his tune.

I am very worried about DD1 at present, though. She had a further growth scan of the baby on Monday and it has been shown to be below the 10th percentile, so the medical staff have advised on a C-section this week. DD messaged me, after I enquired how the scan went. She says everything is fine and that the medical staff are lazy and incompetent. It seems that they wrote down her own weight incorrectly at the initial ante-natal appointment and DD believes that, if they had altered the weight to show her original correct weight, the baby is fine and a normal weight.

I hope that she is right and she has an appointment with the Consultant today, who will presumably clarify matters. But I am concerned that, if the baby is undersized, and if DD again rejects medical advice, it could be a deja vu of last time, where she and DGD2 nearly died. I just want her to be ok and DGS to be ok.

Sorry that this is so long

OP posts:
eveningbubble · 29/12/2021 07:57

I would tell DD3 everything now and take her advice. Because she is the only person in real life near you who appears to have the cop on in the entire situation and her delivery might not be gentle but listen to it because nobody here is making any difference to you. DD3 or nothing.

eveningbubble · 29/12/2021 08:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Whatsdamatta · 29/12/2021 08:23

Wow @eveningbubble there really is no need at all for that. @Chopinandchampagne has been through so much and it isn’t that simple to just cut out her own daughter.
Not one but two nasty posts. I do think you hold a minority opinion here. Not nice.

Chopinandchampagne · 29/12/2021 08:53

I am sorry eveningbubble. I have re-read my post and you are right, it does sound quite whiny, for which I apologise.

I also think that maybe it didn't paint a true picture, if it gives the impression that I have been ignoring advice and wasting people's time. In fact, although I accept that I have been slow to see the light, I was trying to explain - obviously badly - that actually I have much more clarity of vision now.

I have accepted that my relationship with DD will not be as I would have wished it to be, whilst she remains with LB and, even if she were not with him, I am not sure that it could be anyway. I know that I am unlikely to see much of my DGC or to have a close bond with them (it would have been difficult anyway, because of the physical distance). I am very much trying to focus on 2022 as a fresh start, to embrace new beginnings and positive thought patterns, after the last difficult few years.

I read every post carefully and am so grateful for the support which I have had, and value immensely the wisdom and experience of the posters. However, most of the excellent and incredible advice which I have received on this thread is to be realistic, keep channels of communication open, and be there for DD if she ever needs me. And that is what I intend to do, but I am not going to put my life on hold in the meantime. The last few years have been challenging in various ways, and it is time to rebuild and renew, to embrace more positive ways of thinking, being and doing. DD1 is 30 on her next birthday and, on any view, is a mature adult who must make her own decisions.

However, given her previous pregnancies and failure to take medical advice, I cannot be entirely detached or sanguine that her health, possibly even her life, and that of her unborn baby, may be at risk. I want her to be ok, I want the baby to be ok, that's all, and then I will be stepping back - I already have mentally to a much greater extent than may be apparent from my latest post.

OP posts:
Juletide · 29/12/2021 09:02

You are an exceptionally gracious woman OP. Flowers

Changelingbutonlyforme · 29/12/2021 11:10

OP, ignore the poster who says your wasting countless people’s time. This is a free anonymous internet forum. No one is obliged to give you advice and you’re not obliged to follow any of it. If posters get frustrated because you aren’t reacting the way they would, or the way they think you should, or as fast as they would like, that’s not your problem. You don’t owe anyone a satisfying narrative here.

ESGdance · 29/12/2021 11:32

I think you have done brilliantly Chopin. There are not many people who have had to walk in your shoes. You have endured so much all at once. None of this falls into the “normal” spats of everyday life. LB is seriously mentally unwell and has your DD totally mentally controlled. You are walking a tightrope of open door / not antagonising him / keeping your own MH intact.

You are doing great and I hope the birth goes well for all.

LadyEloise1 · 29/12/2021 11:52

@Chopinandchampagne
I hope 2022 will be better for you. Thanks
Is DD1 in Ireland at the moment or is she in the UK ?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.