I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

[Chopinandchampagne]

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

*daily

I am glad that your lovely friend’s funeral service went well.

With regard to the rest of your post.
I am confused by your counsellor, I think you need someone who understands the dynamics of abuse and coercive control. Your counsellor sounds well meaning but absolutely clueless in this area, frankly. Advising you to write a letter is insane, basically telling you to collude with the coercive control. I am shocked by that.
I also disagree with you re you feeling guilty now for being angry about how your dd and LB treated your husband. I think you are right to be angry, and that constantly trying to pander to them and appease them while stifling your own feelings is really unhealthy. ( Literally unhealthy in that it can damage your health, rather than just not sensible. )
I was also struck by your dd telling you that you don’t respect her life choices, as an adult person, while ordering books for herself on YOUR amazon account.
Really the whole situation is so twisted and manipulative, you are on a hiding to nothing getting involved in it. You must hold on to your dignity Chopin, be straightforward rather than constantly trying to second guess them and worrying about everything you say. Set an example to your dd of how not to be manipulated or manipulative. Show her (and your other daughters) what authenticity and strength look like, or all that you are doing will simply perpetuate this situation.

You need to stop being involved in all the details of their lives. Just stop now. Step back. Leave them to crack on with it and tell her that she is an adult now and you will not be manipulated or drawn into any drama, or treated cruelly. It really is time to put your foot down ! I would haul my dd over the coals if she wrote me a letter like that !

I am another who has read many of your previous threads but never commented before as you were already receiving such articulate and helpful messages. I'm so sorry about the loss of your DH and now your close friend. The love and respect you have for the people in your life shines out in every post you make and it's heartbreaking that somebody as kind as you is suffering so much.

Maybe it's your background in Law but you seem to think that if you just say the right thing and find the chink in their logic then you will have cracked the case, everything will turn out right and order will be restored; you will have a great relationship with your DD1 and GCs, life will be rosy and all these misunderstandings will be behind you.

This will never happen with LB and your DD1. They don't care for social convention, kindness, gratitude, hard work, ethics, respect, love or anything that you value; they are lawless.

They want to squeeze every ounce of money and pain out of you and, once you're an empty husk, they'll cast you away entirely. You continuing to try to be kind and thoughtful to them after everything they've done to you is painful to watch; like a mistreated dog creeping up to the abuser with a shyly wagging tail, hoping to be petted this time instead of kicked.

Please drastically cut contact with them both. Get a new phone number for every day life and keep your old SIM in a different phone that you only turn on once a week / once a fortnight. This will remove the ability of your DD1 to blindside you with a message that will either yank on your heart strings or tear your character to shreds. You can receive their messages at a time that's convenient to you, when you are mentally and emotionally prepared. If your DD1 questions your lack of communication breezily say you're trying to use your phone less. Put their communications in quarantine. You trying to take a step back while DD1 still has a 24/7 hotline to you won't work. You'll get reeled back in with videos of the grandchildren and, once you're lulled into a false sense of security, they bash you over the head again. Stop biting the hook.

I agree with the previous poster to keep all messages 3 sentences or less. You overexplain yourself, defending yourself from their accusations thinking "my actions were reasonable and logical with no offense intended, if I explain then surely they'll see." But they will never see. Whatever you do to them is wrong. If you walked on water they'd say you were only doing it because you couldn't swim.

You need to let DD1 hit rock bottom for herself. When you are no longer in the picture as the terrible BoogieGrandma ruining everything then she will have to take a serious look at her life and consider her options. Living in a ruined farmhouse in Leitrim will no doubt hasten her journey down there.

If there is a real emergency she could get in touch with you via her uncle or sisters.

I hope you don't think this message is too harsh, I have been reading your threads for so long and their ongoing mistreatment of you makes me furious. I have a relative who is a LB; a grandiose sociopath, moving from place to place, wheeler dealing and exploiting people because he thinks he's too good to work for The Man. Dragging his latest wife and child with him so they can't put down roots or access any support, leaving a trail of debts, abuse and chaos behind him. Some people are just twisted on the inside and there's nothing you can do except take yourself out of the firing line.

For reference my abusive FIl used to get MIl to write him letters of apology, for him to gloat over. It is an abusers tactic to shame and humiliate. For a counseller to go along with this ? Really unprofessional and ignorant of CC and abuse.

@SirVixofVixHall

For reference my abusive FIl used to get MIl to write him letters of apology, for him to gloat over. It is an abusers tactic to shame and humiliate. For a counseller to go along with this ? Really unprofessional and ignorant of CC and abuse.

This. I'm really troubled by how out of touch your counsellor sounds. Really, really naive with no real understanding of narcissistic supply / triangulation.

Dear @Chopinandchampagne, I’ve posted on your threads before under different names.
I’m so sorry this is all happening again.
@SirVixofVixHall nails it I think. You are holding out that logical arguments will win the day, but you are not dealing with logical people. Your daughter must know how much this is hurting you and yet she continues to do LB’s bidding. Being in an abusive relationship herself does not give her the right to abuse you. And until you stop making excuses for her, it will continue.

I know you are weary of calling out her despicable behaviour in case she cuts off the meagre crumbs you are served. I actually don’t think that would happen. You are too fat a cash cow for them to do that.
If my daughter was risking the health of an innocent, unborn child to pander to a man like LB, I would be calling her out on it. Don’t be complicit in his abuse of the family.

I also think that her current behaviour is part of a pattern where she pushes you away right before giving you the option of appeasing them with money. A request for cash will no doubt follow the baby’s arrival.

Pressed post to soon.

I’m
Sorry if that sounded harsh. I genuinely wish you all the best and wish you could protect yourself from her horrific treatment. You sound like a lovely mum. Focus on your daughters who actually appreciate you. Enjoy your Christmas with them 💐

I agree with PPs that your therapist sounds worse than useless. She doesn't seem to understand the dynamics of the situation at all. In addition, she shouldn't be diagnosing your SIL with a personality disorder without ever meeting him. I mean, it's one thing to say that X disorder can manifest in Y behaviour, but to state confidently that he has NPD or something similar based on a secondhand account is highly irresponsible.

I can imagine how worried you must be about your DD and her current pregnancy. But I also think that PPs are correct and stepping back is the best option for your own self-preservation. When you say that she ordered books from your Amazon account, do you mean that you paid for them as well? If so, it's yet another example of her sense of adolescent entitlement. She's nearly 30. Is she going to depend on her mum to buy things for her for the rest of her life? Though of course she won't hesitate to lash out in angry and hurtful ways if you dare to buy the "wrong" thing.

I'm another one who has followed your painful story for a long time now. I'm in awe of your patience and persistence. I think you've behaved with enormous grace and dignity and I'm so very sorry for the loss of your DH, and now your lovely friend.

But like others, I feel that your fear of losing your daughter and grandchildren is simply trapping you in a very unhealthy pattern of appeasement and collusion.

It sounds as though you are making endless excuses for your daughter's poor behaviour. She is most certainly trapped herself, in an abusive relationship with a narcissistic, manipulative coercive-controller. But she is an adult and has behaved shockingly badly towards you on occasion.

It's far easier to say it than do it but I think you must heed the many pps who have advised keeping your distance. Leave enough space for reconciliation to be possible - I'm certain it will come when the scales fall from her eyes - but please, please stop the pandering, placating and leaning over backwards to understand and be supportive. You are making it possible for your DD to continue to treat you badly. You deserve better.

Oh, and I think your therapist has offered you a shoulder to cry on but that's it. She may be kind but I strongly question her professional judgement. Write a letter?! No!

I agree with others, I dont think this is the right therapist for you.

Whilst appeasement of Nazi Germany might not be the best analogy it does unequivocally show that it simply doesn't work when dealing with mad people with an agenda.

You can never ever win because lb/dd control something you crave - a normal family relationship with them. But they are not a normal family.

Come new year I really feel a therapist who can give you strategies to step way will game changing.

By stepping away you a not abandoning her, just ensuring when she comes back its on your terms not hers/lb’s.

All this talk of her anxiety but what about yours? Which she is the sole cause of.

I agree with all of the PP and think that the “venting” comment is an important observation. You are triangulated by her so that she can get her angries out - they are not about you but as she is unable to express any dissatisfaction about LB to him she spins it on to you and emotionally discharges on you so her venting gives her temporary and transient relief. Also LB vents his anger (with himself / the world) on to you through her.

If there was no vent or emotional skip facility (ie you) they would likely implode. Remove yourself from this toxic triangle where anything you do or say inadvertently fuels the cycle of abuse of you and your DD.

You have had an emotionally tumultuous week with seeing your DHs old friends, funeral of your own friend and the nonsense of SIL/DD1. You must be wrung out.

Hopefully the “nice” moments you shared on face time more recently will stay with her in her conscience and heart now that the shutters are down again and she can reflect on that in the months and years ahead - but you have shown enough kindness now - and as PPs have said best to model dignity, assertion in action rather than words by stepping back. Don’t model being a door mat, pandering to, colluding with and and fawning at bad behaviour - because that’s what she needs to unlearn to untangle her self from him - but you need to untangle yourself from them first.

your therapist might be the best therapist for bereavement for all we know, but useless if not negligent with the horrible advice he/she is giving you with regards to SIL/DD

You are in an abusive relationship with your DD, and like any abusive relationship the only solution is to leave it. Dont settle for the crumbs of love and attention that are given to you mixed in with the copious amounts of critisism, gaslighting, guilt tripping and general abuse by proxy. You will never break the cycle of being hoovered in and discarded, until you walk away.
the only chance there is of a somewhat normal relationship with DD is to walk away and hope with time she will see SIL's true colors and break herself free. But its unlikely she will as long as u are in the picture , offering yourself as a scapegoat for all of her displaced anger and frustration, and a practice target for him

I think you need to consider that your dd1 isn't just a victim in this.

No doubt LB is a controlling bastard but the way your dd treats you is abusive and controlling too.

You can't win here. Both DD1 and LB sound utterly self-absorbed and chaotic. The choices they make in regards to having kids with no reliable paid employment and contestant relying on handouts is a very insecure environment to raise kids.

You are enabling her to stay with him. In your shoes I would say no more hand outs, inheritances, gifts or loans. No more endless criticism of you and what you did/didn't do. Tell her if she wants to use her own children as emotional hostages then that tells you all you need to know about your worth in her eyes.

Then walk away.

I agree. I don't think you're actually helping, OP. It's indirect facilitation.

@eveningbubble

sorry anyone from Leitrim 😂 It's specific to this scenario

Duly noted 😂

I'm another who has been following your threads for a while and have been moved to post myself based on your latest.

I echo PPs advice to please please get a different therapist. The advice she gives you on this situation is worse than useless, it is damaging. It is clear she has no experience or expertise in abusive relationships/coercive control/personality disorders and is essentially advising you to LB's benefit. I read your latest post in horror, you have just stepped onto the merry-go-round for another appeasement cycle and 'martyring' of yourself.

Of course it is right for you to be angry at how you and DH have been treated. And no, you shouldn't expect total annihilation of yourself in order to have a relationship with anyone, even your daughter/grandchildren.

Having dealt with a similar personality myself the only solution for your own mental health is to put yourself first and remove yourself from the situation. Drop the rope, short replies, focus on your other children and people who make you feel good about yourself and not terrible/uncertain. You can't change anything yourself, anything you do will be fuel. Communication with your DD and LB is a game you can't win. They aren't playing by 'normal' rules - and believe me, they will be approaching it from a winner/loser perspective even if you aren't.

I know my post on its own won't change anything, but hopefully the volume of the lurkers who have spoken up will go some way to tipping the balance. Many of us have been in similar situations which both means we understand/recognise what's going on, but also makes it quite painful to read.

For what it's worth, I'm also in the camp that you need to find your anger at your DD. I understand coercive control and the influence LB may have had on her. At the same time she is an adult and has ultimate responsibility for her actions. It is also OK for you to have negative feelings about how she treats you, even if she herself is being abused/having a hard time. You do not need to sacrifice everything about yourself including your 'right' to feelings. In the same way that you are clearly the 'scapegoat' for their negative feelings about their relationship, I wonder if you are projecting your feelings about your daughter's treatment of you onto LB? He is clearly absolutely awful but you appear to absolve her of all responsibility for her own actions.

Phew! Sorry this has been so long. Please reflect on what myself and others have said. And also how much you are required to 'eat your feelings' and erode your sense of self to participate in this relationship.

@Chopinandchampagne I thought of you today and found this thread.
I'm so glad DD2's health issue has cleared up.
You are your usual lovely, kind, thoughtful self.
You are still bending over backwards for DD1 and LB.
How rude was that letter re the gifts !
Stop apologising please.
You are TOO NICE.
So many posters have advised stepping back.
Please do.
Nothing you do will ever be enough while DD1 is under the spell of LB.
Hopefully at some stage the scales will fall from her eyes.
You will never " get past zero" til that happens.

Super posts from @mathanxiety, @PyongyangKipperbang and so many others.
I worry about the social isolation in Ireland.
Will the health visitor know about the new baby ?
mathanxiety's post re informing the HSE in the area was a good one.

Focus on your other two lovely daughters.
Those other money grabbing pair with their three houses and their hands out to you constantly, sicken me.
DD1 is LB's mouthpiece. He is pathetic.
How he would abhor that description nof him.

Take care, be strong and resolute. So many posters wish you well.

Are the new covid travel restrictions to Ireland going to affect DD ? Is DD in England already ?

I just want to say thank you for all of your powerful messages. You have given me a lot to think about.

I am so grateful to ESGdance, LadyEloise, and everyone else who has previously been on my threads and given me a helping hand. But also to those who have previously read my threads, but not previously commented, such as slippery, Flower and PearlI am so, so grateful to you too, for taking this time and trouble to post. You have really helped me. I apologise for anyone I have missed out, you have all been amazing.

I have a lot to process here and I have been thinking deeply and I am still thinking about all that you have said. I haven't quite got my thoughts together yet, and am still feeling a bit drained after the funeral. But I didn't want anyone to think that I was ignoring them or not bothering to reply. This thread has been a lifeline for me, thank you all.

I find it helps to allow some time to feel sad/grieve for the way things are BUT I then also breathe deeply and accept there is no way to actually change the dynamic. They are who they are and I care and love from afar without beating myself up or letting it dominate my daily life because it truly won't change anything and impacts on those around me unfairly.

I suppose it's a meditation of sorts.

@Chopinandchampagne

I think you need to look at the timing of her message.

She knew (I assume) that you would be attending your friends funeral and that the timing coincided with that of your late DH.

Yet, she STILL felt it necessary to berate you over these gifts.

I have posted upthread and also on your previous thread.

I will say again, that you need to focus on your other daughters. The daughters that are kind, are loving and appreciative of you.

As hard as it is, you need to let go over this notion of having a loving relationship with DD1 and your grandchildren. The only relationship they want is of monetary handouts and gifts. Do you not recall, that they were phoning constantly to you/her uncle regarding when they would get the inheritance last year?

Sadly I agree. Also remembering it may be LB who is writing. Either way, she is an accomplice.
At some point you need to drop the rope. Fortunately you have your other loving daughters.
Beware, keep them close to your heart.
They are equally deserving of your love, & may at some point feel you are investing the major part of your attention on Dd1 in-spite of her total lack of support & love, unlike them

Therapists don't learn about narcissism. So if you go to them because you've been ground down by a narcissist there's a danger they'll say ''we can't diagnose remotely so let's look at your role in this''. As though it has to be six of one and half a dozen of the other. As though people who ONLY take do not exist!

Some therapists will understand though, they may not have a text book they can refer back to, but they get that these shame-based, defensive individuals must protect them self from a moment's uncomfortable self-reflection. They project every uncomfortable feeling outwards instantly to avoid facing their own shame and inadequacy. It's always somebody else's fault. It works brilliantly I can assure you. Many people in my own family have been utilising this excellent defence mechanism for decades! They never experience a moment's reflection! They never wonder if they took more than they gave. They never wonder if they caused somebody else pain. The suggestion would make them so angry, but they have a heightened awareness of the pain caused to them.

My own therapist did understand this type of person and helped me unhook myself (to a degree)

He just sounds awful. It must be so hard but there’s nothing you can do yet