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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
Pemba · 17/12/2021 15:20

I wonder what it will take for the OP to get angry with her daughter? God knows, she needs someone to, she needs a wake up call. You can't treat your recently widowed mother like this, especially one who has been as patient, kind and generous as the OP.

I would love to know DD2 and DD3's take on this. They must be concerned for their DM - do they not want to put their sister straight? Or do they think it best just not to engage? They must have discussed DD1's behaviour with the OP though. I would be furious with my sister if I were them.

BorsetshireBanality · 17/12/2021 15:53

Well certainly have reduced pension after some taken as lump sum, to be given as DD1s contribution share to property purchase.

Billybagpuss · 17/12/2021 18:34

@Pemba

I wonder what it will take for the OP to get angry with her daughter? God knows, she needs someone to, she needs a wake up call. You can't treat your recently widowed mother like this, especially one who has been as patient, kind and generous as the OP.

I would love to know DD2 and DD3's take on this. They must be concerned for their DM - do they not want to put their sister straight? Or do they think it best just not to engage? They must have discussed DD1's behaviour with the OP though. I would be furious with my sister if I were them.

She did get angry, that was the reason for dd saying she wasn’t going to feel guilty about her treatment of DH and starting to prepare the land for not letting op see her grandchildren.
Cheerbear24 · 17/12/2021 19:28

I recall your last thread in summer about the children’s ISA and I thought he was a massive CF then. Honestly I think your DD & SIL are completely ungratefulutter users and are only interested in your money ☹️
The berating of you over the ‘unsuitable’ luxury presents whilst with the other hand taking cash for mobile phone bills and inheritance is just staggering.
Im not surprised SIL (sorry not sure what LB means?) is now falling out with Solicitors in Ireland, it sounds like he has a massive superiority complex and no doubt when it all goes tits up it will be everyone else’s fault but his, and he will be railing at the unfairness of it all.
I honestly think you’ve done all you can now and as painful as it is, step back, concentrate on those who want you in their lives but let DD know your door is always open Flowers

MeridasMum · 17/12/2021 19:31

@Cheerbear24

I recall your last thread in summer about the children’s ISA and I thought he was a massive CF then. Honestly I think your DD & SIL are completely ungratefulutter users and are only interested in your money ☹️ The berating of you over the ‘unsuitable’ luxury presents whilst with the other hand taking cash for mobile phone bills and inheritance is just staggering. Im not surprised SIL (sorry not sure what LB means?) is now falling out with Solicitors in Ireland, it sounds like he has a massive superiority complex and no doubt when it all goes tits up it will be everyone else’s fault but his, and he will be railing at the unfairness of it all. I honestly think you’ve done all you can now and as painful as it is, step back, concentrate on those who want you in their lives but let DD know your door is always open Flowers
LB is Lobster Boy. It's a nickname from OP's original thread.
Cheerbear24 · 17/12/2021 19:45

@MeridasMum ok thanks, may I ask why he is called Lobster Boy?

MeridasMum · 17/12/2021 19:46

It was a year or two ago but I think I recall him having a liking for lobster and the 'nicer things in life' without the ability (or desire) to pay for it!

HollowTalk · 17/12/2021 19:51

Wasn't it the first meal out when he'd come to stay with his then girlfriend and her family. They went out for a meal and he chose the most expensive item on the menu. Absolutely no one was impressed.

Cheerbear24 · 17/12/2021 19:52

@MeridasMum

It was a year or two ago but I think I recall him having a liking for lobster and the 'nicer things in life' without the ability (or desire) to pay for it!
Unbelievable! In that case - everything I said in my post multiplied by 2 ! Cheeky, ungrateful man.
HollowTalk · 17/12/2021 19:55

Absolutely agree with @youvegottenminuteslynn. He cannot run the risk of his wife spending time with her own mother and sisters because she might come to her senses and dump him.

RandomMess · 17/12/2021 20:01

This must have been going on for 7 years now at least tbh?

HollowTalk · 17/12/2021 20:25

That is the way it happens though in a family isn't it? It goes on for years and years.

Squeezita · 17/12/2021 21:10

If only the aunt had left dd1’s share to her daughters.

eveningbubble · 18/12/2021 00:29

@coraka this is a very good post. You have to let her sink now OP and hope she comes back. You are actually not helping her. When he cannot rail about you (because you are not there or sending stuff or being a bugbear for him to use) they are forced to look only at each other and I can't help but say on a 'small holding in Leitrim' which would drive many mad 😬 and then she may actually start a seed of thought... this can't be happening, what the hell am I doing and who is he. You have to let it play out now.

eveningbubble · 18/12/2021 00:31

sorry anyone from Leitrim 😂 It's specific to this scenario

AnFiaRuaNua · 18/12/2021 00:35

@HollowTalk

Absolutely agree with *@youvegottenminuteslynn*. He cannot run the risk of his wife spending time with her own mother and sisters because she might come to her senses and dump him.
And this is a REAL risk. For years I thought I couldn't leave. Then I went home to see my parents (they aren't perfect either but no violence, no verbal abuse). My Dc1 got chicken pox so I had to stay ten more days before I could fly, then when dc1 was ok to fly, dc2 got chicken pox, so I got some distance and I thought, I could actually leave and start again.
AnFiaRuaNua · 18/12/2021 00:35

A risk to lobster boy that is obviously\

mathanxiety · 18/12/2021 04:48

@eveningbubble, when he can't browbeat her with complaints about presents and attempts to contact her, he will start telling her that her mother has forgotten her and washed her hands of them all.

She won't be able to win with this man no matter how she conducts herself.

She needs to notify the relevant local authorities that there are children and a woman who are isolated from friends and family and living with a domineering man.

ESGdance · 18/12/2021 09:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Corbally · 18/12/2021 09:36

@ESGdance

Message withdrawn at poster's request
Maybe I misunderstood or their plans have changed, but I thought the DD and LB had already left Leitrim and headed back to the UK for the birth?

Not clear where, though presumably they’re at their previous home if he DD is re-encountering medical staff/midwives from her previous pregnancies?

ESGdance · 18/12/2021 09:42

Sorry I have just re read the OP again and I seemed to have picked that up wrong - she said she wouldn’t tell anyone when she was in labour - as didn’t want to worry the grandparents - I got tangled with not wanting medical intervention, a natural birth and conflict with medical staff and misunderstood - I will get my post deleted as it is inaccurate.

Chopinandchampagne · 18/12/2021 12:09

Good morning everyone, and thank you again so much for all of your support, especially in the run up to my friend's funeral. It was held in a crematorium by the Thames, in beautiful gardens, which she would have liked, as she adored flowers, and the weather was bright and sunny. The service was extremely moving, and was very well attended. She was much loved by many people, she was so kind and thoughtful, yet full of life and mischief; she was tiny but made a huge impression. The world is a poorer place without her, and I shall miss her very much.

The funeral was also triggering, in a way, being just over a year since DH's funeral, which is why I have been a bit slow to reply to all of your messages. But I did re-read the thread on the journey home, and it brought me a lot of comfort, thank you.

I had a session with my therapist yesterday, the first since the latest developments with DD. I am conscious that a few people have thought that she may not be the right therapist for me but, to be fair, I contacted her in relation to bereavement therapy, and she has been very kind and good at lending a sympathetic ear. Sometimes the grief has been so overwhelming, especially on first anniversaries of important dates, that I have just wanted to pour out my feelings, just to turn on the tap and to release some of the pain.

I have told her about the situation with DD, of course, but she generally encourages me to be conciliatory and I can see why she does that, but I don't know if she understands about 'caretakers' and 'rescuers' or 'triangulation'. She is, however, convinced that LB has NPD or some other personality disorder. She thinks I just need to accept that he is in control, if I want to have any contact with DD and the DGC. She thought that I should consider writing a letter, even if I didn't mean it. I said I wasn't sure about that as, although I would be very happy to do so if I thought it might lead to a resolution, I am not at all sure that it will do so.

She also said that the most important thing was to reassure DD how much I loved her, in case of a 'worst case scenario'. The pregnancy is classed by the medics as 'high risk', the baby is borderline/under normal growth, and DD still seems set on ignoring medical advice. My take on it is that, if she had taken medical advice last time, she would have had an elective C section much earlier and all would have been over quickly, at no risk to her or DGD2. As it was, she went up to 43 weeks, then refused an elective C section, labour was induced, and she had a long and arduous labour, followed by an emergency C section, in which she and DGD2's lives were at risk. DD told me that she believed that DGD2 was dead, and that she suffered PTSD, as a result.

This is the incident which ESGdance referred to, where I spoke to DD after the birth, when LB had been made to leave the hospital (much to his annoyance), and DD had agreed that it would be better to accept medical advice and to remain in hospital for a few days. I then received a message from LB later that day to say that he was taking them home and, the next thing I know, DD was cooking the Christmas dinner, but LB was 'helping' her. I am convinced that LB didn't message me to put my mind at rest, as he never messages me and ignores any communications. Rather, I think he messaged me in a 'two fingers up' sort of way, and I am sure that this lies behind DD's telling me that she probably wouldn't let anybody know when she goes into labour. Effectively, therefore, she is being deprived of any emotional support, apart from LB, and DD previously told me that she didn't want him at the birth this time, as it made it much more difficult when he was there, as she was worrying about him all the time.

DD is terrified of the birth, and puts the previous traumatic experience down to the medical staff, rather than her refusal to take medical advice. She asked if she could order various books from my Amazon account about natural childbirth, and she subsequently said that they had helped her. But now that the birth is approaching, she is understandably anxious and afraid, and is also worried about the long drive back to Ireland, if she has another C section. I am guessing that LB will want to go back as soon as possible.

I now think that it was crassly insensitive of me to ask for reassurances about seeing the baby, when she was so worried about the birth, but I could tell from her tone of voice that something was wrong, and it became apparent that LB has already said that he does not want me to have any contact with DGS. So at least I know where I stand, rather than it coming as a shock in the new year, because I need to try to make a fresh start next year.

It is difficult, because I so want to love and support DD, to be there for her, but I don't want to suffocate her or push in, if unwanted. My feeling is that LB stamps down on any attempts by me at what he regards as 'interference', and takes it out on DD to the extent that it prompts a diatribe against her awful family so that, rather than helping her, any efforts hinder her instead. And I do think that the gifts I sent have genuinely angered her, and that she has deflected any guilt about her treatment of DH towards me, and blames me for trying to make her feel guilty. I know that I shouldn't have done this, but I was so upset and angry that he had been deprived of seeing her married or meeting his DGDs, until he knew he was dying. I had to let those feelings out before we could carry on or try to have any sort of authentic relationship, and anger is part of grief. The upset she caused cast a cloud over those last precious few years with DH although, of course. she did not know that he was going to die. But I did say that I wasn't angry any more. I thought we were moving on. Should I tell her that DH wouldn't want her to feel guilty and that I don't either, that he had come to terms with things, that he wasn't one to hold a grudge, and that he loved her. Then again, they may just be annoyed that I am pestering them, so I think silence is best. Sorry, this is becoming a stream of consciousness, lancing the boil, I suppose!

coraka, I think you have summarised the situation very accurately, and thank you for your supportive post.Thank you also to CJSmith for the phrase 'honour your grief'. which I found helpful and comforting, and to feelingdizzy for giving another daughter's viewpoint, which I also found helpful. I love the description of how you and your mum now love each other in your 'beautiful, flawed way'! And that's the thing, none of us are perfect - certainly not me - and families fall out, of course they do, all the time. But surely the normal thing is to talk things through, apologise, and kiss and make up, not just cut people off. It's like being on trial and judged and condemned, in absentia, with no representation, no clemency, and no right of appeal.

Corbally, fluoropostit, and MondayTuesdayWednesday - thank you so much for the insights into the Irish farming community, which are fascinating. However, ESGdance has summed up the position perfectly, in saying that DD and LB have a significant financial buffer. Apart from the Irish property, they have two properties in the UK, one of which they already rent out, and I presume that they will also rent out the other one after they return to Ireland. They also built up savings from both obtaining bursaries, when they did their respective PGCEs, and from dog breeding during lockdown. They live simply and will probably be fine if they can feed themselves from the land, and have rental income and child benefit. DD is actually a very talented cook (she did a Cordon Bleu course before deciding to go to university) and is generally innovative and creative. I think that ESGdance is right, that they will be fine, until the children grow up and want something more. And what a wonderful analogy of 'rats in a cage' on a 'high shelf'. That really made me smile on what was otherwise a bleak day.

Dixie - we didn't meet LB's parents until the time we visited the DGDs for the first time. I had sent a Christmas card and they immediately responded. LB didn't want them to meet us, but they contacted us at our hotel and we met for coffee. They seem very pleasant and they have provided financial and practical support. They sent flowers when DH died. LB's mother kept saying what a lovely family, they could achieve anything, and how proud I must be of DD, who is a great credit to me, and who is like a daughter to her. She is not happy that they are moving although accepts that they 'have to have their adventures'. DD thinks that she is principally upset that the DGDs are moving away.

Thank you also to everyone else who has posted, it has been incredibly helpful for me.

Phew, this has turned into another massive post - sorry!

OP posts:
GooseberryJam · 18/12/2021 12:41

I'm glad your friend's funeral went as well as it could have done, and that you gained some comfort from being there, even though it will also have been very difficult for you.

I'm afraid that the picture with your DD is very much as it's been for some time. That is, she uses contact with you to let off steam and voice her anxieties - however, it's done as venting, rather than because she intends to listen to advice from you, or take help from you, other than in the form LB approves of, i.e. money. She may well ask to use your Amazon to buy natural childbirth books, but that's to confirm her planned course of action in ignoring medical advice. You now also know you won't be allowed to see the new baby.

You must, for your own sake, pull back. The worst of all worlds is what you have - you hear about all the worries and problems but are not allowed to help and get involved, and will be told you're wrong and interfering if you try to. A few posts have said this lately. You will have to let her make these mistakes, as trying to intervene will make no difference and will not change her feelings. She has to sink to the depths to comprehend how abusive her relationship is. Maybe life trying to be self sufficient in the Irish countryside will finally do that.

Should I tell her that DH wouldn't want her to feel guilty and that I don't either, that he had come to terms with things, that he wasn't one to hold a grudge, and that he loved her. Then again, they may just be annoyed that I am pestering them, so I think silence is best

Silence is best. Please think about what I said about short messages only. Don't try to assauge her guilt. Let her live with it and come to terms with it as the road to any change. You can't make that happen for her. Say as little as possible. I know you find that one of the hardest things, but I really think pulling back is both your route to self-preservation and a possible route to getting a different reaction from her. The same thing you've done before will get more of the same.

Grawlix · 18/12/2021 13:43

I feel so very sad for you, Chopin. You continue to pour so much love and thought into your relationship with your DD and yet hers with you has become coldly transactional, as you describe it - she needs a phone, so you pay for it and in return you're permitted to speak to her occasionally. She's worried about the imminent birth so she pours out her fears to you and asks if she can buy some books.....on your account, of course. And because you care so much, of course you're happy to let her.

But if you step out of line for one moment, cross the invisible divide whose complex rules you don't even know (can't actually ever know, because they're irrational and change at a moment's notice), the shutters come clanging down and you're chided and cast out with cruel words. It's all on her/LB's terms, every time. It reminds me of when I was at the mercy of bullies at school and was desperate to stay on their good side and terrified of putting a foot wrong, but I was never sure quite how to navigate the quicksand from day to day.

It's easily said, I know, but honestly I would not write back. I completely agree with Gooseberry that silence would serve you best. You are highly articulate and I suspect that, like me, you tend to believe that having a reasoned and respectful discussion is the right way to achieve a good outcome. But DD and LB aren't responding to debate, logic, sense, or any kind of reasoning here. They aren't actually listening, I'm afraid. They have their own agenda and from everything you've said, they simply have no intention of engaging with anything you really feel or might want (ultimately driven by LB, of course). I'm sorry, because it's awful and you've demonstrated from the start how painful this is for you and the family. But personally I think I would try to step back as much as I could.

Squeezita · 18/12/2021 13:53

The counsellor doesn’t seem to understand much about abusive relationships (even thought she has identified possible NPD on LB’s part) and therefore risks setting you back.

I would use the hurt from dd’s last email as a reason to step back from all of them. There is no harm in letting her know how hurt you are. You don’t need to be the strong one all the time. I wouldn’t write the letter to LB and I would limit contact to once a week. I would say you don’t feel up to dakly messaging/calls as her email was so distressing. Give her a taste of her own medicine.

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