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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
HappyGoLuckyLuLu · 16/12/2021 13:03

Hope all goes as well as it can today OP.

Random aside but did you say earlier somewhere that DD & SIL voted for brexit? And now they've moved to Ireland? Or do I have that wrong?

Be kind to yourself in any case today & over the holidays! Hope you have a lovely Xmas regardless of these ongoing dramas 🎄🌟🎄

Dixiechickonhols · 16/12/2021 13:39

Happy SIL voted for Brexit but has an Irish grand parent so is applying for a passport.
Do you have any contact with SIL’s parents. I wonder where they are in all of this. They sound like they have been providing childcare and perhaps money. I’m sure they must be concerned about them suddenly living in Ireland.
I also wonder about their income? Owning 2 houses and never had a job. Puppies can’t be that lucrative. Do you have concerns about illegal income eg cannabis farm.

Billybagpuss · 16/12/2021 13:42

@Dixiechickonhols

Happy SIL voted for Brexit but has an Irish grand parent so is applying for a passport. Do you have any contact with SIL’s parents. I wonder where they are in all of this. They sound like they have been providing childcare and perhaps money. I’m sure they must be concerned about them suddenly living in Ireland. I also wonder about their income? Owning 2 houses and never had a job. Puppies can’t be that lucrative. Do you have concerns about illegal income eg cannabis farm.
I seem to remember in the last thread the pil were falling out of favour so I’m guessing they are on the receiving end of similar treatment now.
Dixiechickonhols · 16/12/2021 13:58

In most families you would at least have met SIL parents eg at wedding or grandchild birthday party. I appreciate that’s not the case here but wondering if you have any contact. I just imagine there’s another mum out there in same position as OP desperately worried about her grandchildren being moved to a derelict house in a foreign country miles from anywhere or any support.

BorsetshireBanality · 16/12/2021 14:26

Thanks for correcting me, Corbally, I should know that especially as my sister started learning Irish during lockdown!

AnFiaRuaNua · 16/12/2021 15:41

Interesting that at 29 he has never had a proper job. He thinks he is living off grid, on the land he doesnt have the correct permits to utilise.

Does he claim job seekers allowance?

Or are you his pension plan. I know if you dont pay tax and dont claim jsa then there is nothing going towards yr state pension
Your daughter will be ok if she mak3s sure the childrens allowance goes in to her account not his.

Squeezita · 16/12/2021 15:44

@AnFiaRuaNua

Interesting that at 29 he has never had a proper job. He thinks he is living off grid, on the land he doesnt have the correct permits to utilise.

Does he claim job seekers allowance?

Or are you his pension plan. I know if you dont pay tax and dont claim jsa then there is nothing going towards yr state pension
Your daughter will be ok if she mak3s sure the childrens allowance goes in to her account not his.

I hope the child benefit is going into DD1's name, as I think that also counts towards pension.

He has probably put it in his though.

AnFiaRuaNua · 16/12/2021 15:51

Yes im irish and mothers in receipt of childrens allowance, a contribution is taken for state pension.

Bet he has applied for it in his own name.

I know this isnt helping op. Sorry, just frustrated on yr behalf

spongedog · 16/12/2021 18:14

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@mildtomoderate

OP is at a funeral today as she has posted about recently. Your post is in incredibly poor taste. I also believe you're wrong, but regardless today is not the day.[/quote]
Not everyone has all day to read a lengthy thread. Unless of course you are suggesting that Op, despite their grief, has time today to read a Mumsnet thread. You are out of order.

Offmyfence · 16/12/2021 18:19

@mildtomoderate

Has anyone considered the fact that the DD might be being frosty to the OP for a good reason?

This thread is full of praise for the OP, but we have absolutely no idea what the DD's side of this is. My MiL would talk a brilliant talk on here, and can and has sent us some very expensive things over the years. She's incredibly clever, able to twist and manipulate language to make it appear that she is nothing more than a concerned mother, who loves her children unconditionally and only wants the best for them.

She is utterly toxic and we are now NC with her after being LC for years.

OP could be like that. It usually takes two to make a situation like this. Clearly DD isn't budging, so she has a whole set of reasons for that.

Given the amount of your posts that have been deleted, I would be interested in listening to your MILs point of view.
fuzzwuss · 16/12/2021 18:20

unbelievable how rude she was. You do need to practice your grey rock skills though. To be fair they don't come easily to people used to communicating in a normal way with normal people. Your trip to Africa sounds amazing, hope you can focus on that and some other positives and keep taking one step at a time. It sounds as if you are able to at least start detaching, well done for taking the very first steps.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 16/12/2021 18:24

Not everyone has all day to read a lengthy thread. Unless of course you are suggesting that Op, despite their grief, has time today to read a Mumsnet thread. You are out of order.

Of course not, but it's easy to read just the OP's posts now. And yes despite her grief, she post this morning saying she was on her way to a friends funeral and wanted to say thanks for the support she has had over the last few days which I thought was really lovely.

I'm glad MN deleted some of the other poster's posts earlier because they were spiteful regardless of the day. It just seemed extra spiteful considering the day, but yes of course that poster may not have read all OP's posts.

Offmyfence · 16/12/2021 18:25

@spongedog yes OP may well have time to read this post today and find it comforting (in the main). She wouldn't be just reading a MB post as you are. She's reading a post she's made and contributed to a lot and is clearly receiving a lot of support.

That could actually help with her grieving and I can't see any harm in her doing it.

spongedog · 16/12/2021 19:30

[quote Offmyfence]@spongedog yes OP may well have time to read this post today and find it comforting (in the main). She wouldn't be just reading a MB post as you are. She's reading a post she's made and contributed to a lot and is clearly receiving a lot of support.

That could actually help with her grieving and I can't see any harm in her doing it.[/quote]
MB? Despite many years on here not shorthand I am familiar with.

theworldsgonefeckingmad · 16/12/2021 19:34

I have seen one of your other threads @Chopinandchampagne and my heart truly breaks for you, I wish my mum loved me as you do your DD's and nothing to do with the gifts, you seem to be genuinely interested in them and support them no matter what you seem lovely.

I have been thinking of you today it won't have been easy I am sure Thanks

Offmyfence · 16/12/2021 19:39

@spongedog typo should've been MN but I think you knew that didn't you?

What's shorthand? Wasn't that some sort of ancient writing secretary's used to use? I'm not familiar with it myself!

Offmyfence · 16/12/2021 19:41

@spongedog

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/shorthand

That's shorthand, FYI I don't use that. Good job you mentioned the MB bit, I would've proper confused.

Offmyfence · 16/12/2021 20:42

*I would've been

coraka · 17/12/2021 09:10

OP, I have read all your story and I am sorry that you have had such a sad and difficult walk in recent years.

One thing that stands out is that you are always saying to yourself: if only I had not said that particular thing or done that then things would have been better. If I had sent a better message, sent a better present they would have been pleased and happy and everything g would have been good.

No.

There is nothing you could have done to make any difference. Whatever you do, it will have be bad, because he has decided that you are bad. You HAVE to be bad to justify LB's treatment of you, so any loving action has to be interpreted by him as an attack.

You have to be bad so that he is good. If DD1 were to realise that you are good, then she would also necessarily realise that LB is bad. LB knows he is bad, so this campaign is thorough and difficult.

From the very beginning he has been terrified that DD1 will leave him. He impregnated her quickly and when she ran to you for help he saw that you were a danger to the relationship. You had to be eliminated. So he ground down her MH and self-esteem to the point where he could persuade her to hide herself away, get married in secret and impregnate her again quickly. He kept her away long enough that there was nothing you could do to stop it and impregnated her again just to be sure before she was allowed to see you again. Now she's pregnant again and he's moved her country so she is totally under his control and isolated from anyone who could let her know that she doesn't have to put up with this, that there is more out there for her than this.

If you didn't have money you would never have seen them again. This is the only reason he permits her to have contact. You are so dangerous because if she spent time with you and the relationship recovered to the point t that DD confided or listened to you again then she would leave him.

The more desperately you offer and extend your genuine love, the more desperately he will try to destroy it.

It is so sad that DD has fallen into this net, but you cannot pull her out of it. She has to pull herself out.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 17/12/2021 10:09

@coraka

OP, I have read all your story and I am sorry that you have had such a sad and difficult walk in recent years.

One thing that stands out is that you are always saying to yourself: if only I had not said that particular thing or done that then things would have been better. If I had sent a better message, sent a better present they would have been pleased and happy and everything g would have been good.

No.

There is nothing you could have done to make any difference. Whatever you do, it will have be bad, because he has decided that you are bad. You HAVE to be bad to justify LB's treatment of you, so any loving action has to be interpreted by him as an attack.

You have to be bad so that he is good. If DD1 were to realise that you are good, then she would also necessarily realise that LB is bad. LB knows he is bad, so this campaign is thorough and difficult.

From the very beginning he has been terrified that DD1 will leave him. He impregnated her quickly and when she ran to you for help he saw that you were a danger to the relationship. You had to be eliminated. So he ground down her MH and self-esteem to the point where he could persuade her to hide herself away, get married in secret and impregnate her again quickly. He kept her away long enough that there was nothing you could do to stop it and impregnated her again just to be sure before she was allowed to see you again. Now she's pregnant again and he's moved her country so she is totally under his control and isolated from anyone who could let her know that she doesn't have to put up with this, that there is more out there for her than this.

If you didn't have money you would never have seen them again. This is the only reason he permits her to have contact. You are so dangerous because if she spent time with you and the relationship recovered to the point t that DD confided or listened to you again then she would leave him.

The more desperately you offer and extend your genuine love, the more desperately he will try to destroy it.

It is so sad that DD has fallen into this net, but you cannot pull her out of it. She has to pull herself out.

This is so incredibly astute and well said. Absolutely agree with every word.
RandomMess · 17/12/2021 10:29

Coroka I agree too.

I also have to laugh at LB who adores fine dining of lobster but only at someone else's expense is going to try sustainable small holding in rural Ireland 😳 he really has no clue.

I hope yesterdays service was bearable and your grief not too overwhelming Thanks

diddl · 17/12/2021 10:55

So they already own 2 properties that they get a rental income from, & have outright bought a third?

Yet think that Op should give them money?

Wow!

Billybagpuss · 17/12/2021 11:07

@diddl

So they already own 2 properties that they get a rental income from, & have outright bought a third?

Yet think that Op should give them money?

Wow!

Oh it was worse than that. To make up for upsetting him by asking him to leave the house when he'd upset DD when they first started dating, LB wanted OP to give him her retirement property.
BorsetshireBanality · 17/12/2021 15:12

….and also cash in pension to give him money!

VikingOnTheFridge · 17/12/2021 15:19

Really?!

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