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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
lessthanathirdofanacre · 15/12/2021 19:40

I agree with much of what fluoropostit says as well. There is so much cultural pressure on mothers to be the self-denying martyr, the angel in the house. It's a trap that is easy to fall into. And I worry that you blame yourself for the situation with your DD @Chopinandchampagne in a way that is not healthy.

Your DD is nearly 30. She isn't a wayward teen rebelling by having an "unsuitable" boyfriend. She is an adult who has made her own choices in life. I agree with PPs that her relationship sounds abusive, but unfortunately only she can extricate herself if she ever becomes ready. For now all you can do is support her from a distance. Although it is of necessity a physical distance, for your own self-preservation it's an emotional distance as well.

I'm still shocked that anyone could view your DD's message to you as anything but a cruel attempt to cause you pain. I think some PPs have mistaken bluntness and unkindness for "honesty." But there is nothing remotely honest about that email. It was never about the gifts, of course. If she genuinely wanted to express concern about spending your money on items they really don't want or need, there would have been many ways to explain that kindly and sensitively. The real message was to put you in your place as your DD and SIL have defined it: as the person who is always wrong and who just doesn't understand them (a very immature perspective but they do seem like people stuck in extended adolescence). And of course to attack you. The fact that she could do that at all, much less when you are particularly vulnerable following your friend's death, reveals so much about where your DD is emotionally and psychologically, none of it good.

SirVixofVixHall · 15/12/2021 19:44

@fluoropostit

Well I agree I want to make Chopin a cake or something too so now we can immediately form an alliance of FIERCE, CAKE-MAKING MAMS.
Oh yes, the CakeBearingMamis are here for you OP !
Billybagpuss · 15/12/2021 20:06

It’s been very interesting reading the alternative points of view seeing exactly how the messages will be skewed from posters who have been in that position. It has kind of been touched on on previous threads but without the personal experiences.

I agree that your message was too chatty and will be misconstrued and used against you, has she replied yet? But completely understand what you were trying to achieve.

I hope tomorrow goes well, we’ll be thinking about you.

ESGdance · 15/12/2021 20:43

You are so red raw and vulnerable with grief. It is totally destabilising to be widowed so brutally and suddenly that you must feel turned inside out.

100% focus on yourself and reaching out to family and friends. You are exhausted and fragile cannot be exposed to anything. Please don’t apologise to anyone. You are doing more than your best in the most hideous of circumstances.

I can’t imagine your devastation of losing your wonderful friend (she sounds amazing - as do all of your friends - which is always a reflection of you).

I hope that you will get through tomorrow with love in your heart and take comfort some from the knowledge that the MN Massive unanimously have your back. I wish I could wrap you up in a soothing balm and feed you some glorious cake (made by PPs as I can’t cook).

Rest up.

New day tomorrow.

HulaChick · 15/12/2021 21:09

Oh my goodness,what a horrible situation for you and I can well understand why you'd feel incredibly hurt by all this. I'm not familiar with any further back story but from what I've read of this one, their response to the incredibly lovely sounding hamper you got them was downright rude, ungrateful, uncaring about your feelings a d very immature. Your daughter has lost her DF and surely, ftomthat, should realise that life is short & unpredictable and therefore she should value the fact that she's got you who obviously loves and cares for her a great deal. Your SIL does sound controlling and that's probably where the real problem lies. I'm afraid that I think they're both selfish & ungrateful and need to grow up a d I hope someone tells them so. I feel very sad and hurt for you. Xx

CJSmith2019 · 15/12/2021 21:55

I love the idea of the MN Massive!
Just a thought, @Chopinandchampagne and I don't know if it would be useful. One of the best things I learned in therapy was 'find your anger'. My therapist assured me this did not mean going out and beating up someone. 😁 But to change a mindset and start to think, how dare you treat me like this. It helped me to move forward and come back to my real self, and reduce the abuser to no importance, when I found my anger.

Twillow · 15/12/2021 23:18

From the White Company! This garment is made using Lenzing Modal®, which is one of the most sustainable fibres in the textile industry. It is made using beech wood, a sustainable raw material. As well as being CO2-neutral, up to 95% of the chemicals used during its production are recycled.

But I do also get where she is coming from. If you can spend xxxx on Diptyque candles, did you take the trouble to ask was there anything they needed?

GooseberryJam · 15/12/2021 23:40

I think OP was intending to get treats rather than things they needed. She's asked what they wanted in the past and has done that on other occasions.
You can contend she should have done something different, of course, but likewise I don't think her daughter was thinking of what her terminally ill dad needed when she sent him a second hand paperback about life in the gulag. OP will look at her behaviour and concede she might get things wrong. DD and LB are never wrong. Hmm

As I said earlier, the sooner they move to Ireland the better (apologies to the whole Irish nation for wishing this on you) as in becoming smallholders they'll be confronted with very hard work for which they'll be entirely responsible. I imagine that will be someone else's fault though soon enough.

BookFiend4Life · 16/12/2021 00:41

@Twillow

From the White Company! This garment is made using Lenzing Modal®, which is one of the most sustainable fibres in the textile industry. It is made using beech wood, a sustainable raw material. As well as being CO2-neutral, up to 95% of the chemicals used during its production are recycled.

But I do also get where she is coming from. If you can spend xxxx on Diptyque candles, did you take the trouble to ask was there anything they needed?

The trouble is that nothing would have been right, other than cash. And probably even then they would have found fault. I don't blame OP for not wanting to be an ATM for a daughter determined to see the worst in every kind gesture.

OP, please please be kind to yourself. Put them out of your mind as much as you can. You have two lovely daughters, maybe you could go out for a fancy meal and a concert or something of that nature to take your mind off everything!

eveningbubble · 16/12/2021 02:45

This is the odd thread bar the odd troll or someone who hasn’t quite come to terms with their own position in life, where you are unanimously been told to drop… your child. You can and you have to. What will happen when your DD2/DD3 has a child, a grandchild you will ‘know’ as your first and a son-in-law who is halfway decent. Imagine the escalation. Stop doing this to yourself. No ‘small holding’ in Ireland will work, this isn’t the movies. The whole living off the land does not work here at all. Unless you are an expert in animal husbandry/a craftsman/ family by trade by the by you need a second job to keep shit running or just ticking by. Plus you need to know the locals. On the west coast I presume ; an hour from a hospital- Clare/Kerry/Mayo I am guessing … forget it. They’ll be back with a huge monetary loss and a word we’d call them by. So naive and I agree with @Mathanxiety; your primary concern should be those children now.

eveningbubble · 16/12/2021 02:56

plus to get EU grants for farming you need to have completed years long courses, you don't just waltz in and take shit (in any country I imagine). You pay thousands for your own septic tank.

BorsetshireBanality · 16/12/2021 02:59

The “second job” in this case appears to be extracting capital from the OP while trying to batter her down psychologically by turning her child against her, denying a meaningful relationship with her grandchildren and sending cruel messages by proxy.

eveningbubble · 16/12/2021 03:04

you don't have a few sheep and a bit of wool
you don't have a few chickens a few boxes of eggs
you don't have a few cows and a few bottles of milk
you could grow veg and feed yourself if the weather works out and it doesn't.
that time is gone, what on earth do his parents think of this workshy fucker and you enable yours. Meanwhile you deprive your other two perfectly loving kids of time with you. Know when the battle is lost.

eveningbubble · 16/12/2021 03:05

@BorsetshireBanality yes exactly

BorsetshireBanality · 16/12/2021 03:30

What is really heartbreaking is that the OP’s kindness and generosity is still being abused while she is suffering from the tragic loss of her husband, and is grieving.

SIL’s, and to some extent her DD’s, behaviour is breathtakingly cold-hearted, callous and mercenary.

SpringCrocus · 16/12/2021 04:10

@Twillow

From the White Company! This garment is made using Lenzing Modal®, which is one of the most sustainable fibres in the textile industry. It is made using beech wood, a sustainable raw material. As well as being CO2-neutral, up to 95% of the chemicals used during its production are recycled.

But I do also get where she is coming from. If you can spend xxxx on Diptyque candles, did you take the trouble to ask was there anything they needed?

OP has given them a huge amount of cash in the past!
Dontbekatty · 16/12/2021 07:29

Oh @Chopinandchampagne you poor thing. I read your previous threads and thought things were turning for the better. I’m so sorry for you with this latest setback, you certainly don’t deserve this at all.
LB is isolating your daughter as much as he can, and she has Stockholm syndrome. You can’t make her see sense til she sees sense. Emotionally detach yourself as much as you can and just be pleasant (as you have been). She may need you one day so leave the door ajar and tell her you will always be there for her, no matter what. You need to get your life together after your awful loss. Focus on yourself and your other girls. You’ve done all you can xxx

HollowTalk · 16/12/2021 07:44

I think if you do take a lovely long holiday then you shouldn't tell them until you are back home as I can imagine lobster boy will try to ruin it for you. He won't be able to cope with the thought of you spending his money like that. I can quite see him persuading your daughter to ask you to come home to visit during that time.

Malibuismysecrethome · 16/12/2021 07:52

Yes please don’t tell them about your holiday. There will be some drama and you won’t be able to go. Don’t let them know your plans. You really need to protect yourself.

LittleBipper · 16/12/2021 08:02

I don't have anything astute to say on the general situation other than to agree they are behaving disgracefully, but I do know that you need to have permission to home educate in Ireland so if you are concerned about the kids you could make sure the authorities know they are there.

We would love to live on the remote farm DH grew up on in the Gaeltacht but we home ed and it wouldn't be fair on DS!

harriethoyle · 16/12/2021 08:46

@Chopinandchampagne I'm so sorry you're having such a tough time and agree with pp that your dd sounds like an ungrateful little madam. But I also agree with @Corbally that you need to drop the rope. Stop getting drawn into the back and forth. Leave your dd to it.

I am estranged from a sibling. I tried for YEARS to figure what I'd done wrong, to fix it, to apologise. To no avail. And I just got to the stage where I realised the only person I was hurting was me. So I just stepped back and although the finality of it hurt, the relief from getting off that emotional merry go round was palpable. I know it's different for parent and child but I would really urge stepping back a bit (a lot!) for your own good.

MondayTuesdayWednesday · 16/12/2021 09:18

@eveningbubble is so right. Except for the largest farmers in Ireland, most farming families would have at least one family member who works full time in a paying job outside of the farm and they would be families that come from generations of farming so know what they are doing.

Particularly if they are on the west coast - the weather is so bad that farming is very difficult to make a living from. A lot of farming families would help each other out too so goodwill from the community plays a large part in making a farm work. It doesn’t sound like your SIL would be able to help out others when he is too lazy to even work himself.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 16/12/2021 09:25

@HollowTalk

I think if you do take a lovely long holiday then you shouldn't tell them until you are back home as I can imagine lobster boy will try to ruin it for you. He won't be able to cope with the thought of you spending his money like that. I can quite see him persuading your daughter to ask you to come home to visit during that time.
I absolutely agree with this and was going to say the same. Anything they see as you enjoying THEIR money (because that's the narrative he's spinning her now, ugh) they will try to sabotage. Do not give them any ammunition. No information about your life. Because all they want is information they can twist and weaponise. Treat them as you would a colleague who is the biggest gossip and backstabber. Give them nowt.
Corbally · 16/12/2021 09:32

[quote MondayTuesdayWednesday]@eveningbubble is so right. Except for the largest farmers in Ireland, most farming families would have at least one family member who works full time in a paying job outside of the farm and they would be families that come from generations of farming so know what they are doing.

Particularly if they are on the west coast - the weather is so bad that farming is very difficult to make a living from. A lot of farming families would help each other out too so goodwill from the community plays a large part in making a farm work. It doesn’t sound like your SIL would be able to help out others when he is too lazy to even work himself.[/quote]
I know quite a few people who do make a living, but it's certainly not a 'pure' smallholding situation (any more than, as you say, most farming families don't also include someone with another job off the land) -- they're cheesemakers, or fish-smokers, or stonemasons etc. If most of what they produce comes off their land, they need to add significant value to it.

BorsetshireBanality · 16/12/2021 09:36

Also, do teachers need some level of Gaelic to be able to teach? If so this would rule out OP’s DD from getting a teaching job which would leave SIL do the home educating and child care which I would imagine is not his thing.

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