I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

[Chopinandchampagne]

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

´jersey’ is a name for the way the fabric is made (knitted) rather than what it is made of. So you can absolutely have cotton jersey.

It’s very weird to send a mess like that even if you don’t like a gift and it isn’t suitable. Most people would just pass it on to someone else. Do you think she wrote the reply herself or do you think it was writtenr her?

@Babyiskickingmyribs

´jersey’ is a name for the way the fabric is made (knitted) rather than what it is made of. So you can absolutely have cotton jersey.

It’s very weird to send a mess like that even if you don’t like a gift and it isn’t suitable. Most people would just pass it on to someone else. Do you think she wrote the reply herself or do you think it was writtenr her?

Yes this is true. I work in an industry connected to fashion and jersey just means the weave so it can be an organic cotton and be called jersey.

Whatever the reason she wrote it, the answer is the same, you have to step back and grey rock her.

Thank you everyone. This is what I sent:

Xxxx,

I am sorry if you found the gifts unsuitable. I had thought that the pjs were pure cotton, but obviously I didn’t check properly. I was ordering gifts on the internet during the night for various people and was getting a bit tired by then. I know that you don’t like scented things next to your skin, which rules out perfumes, bath products etc, but I didn’t appreciate that it also applied to candles. I just thought it would be nice to have a few candles at Christmas and would create a relaxing ambience. I have bought candles as gifts for a number of people but my recollection is that the one I ordered for you was just a pack of very small candles. I think that is really the only ‘luxury’ item, although my view is that we could all do with a bit of luxury at Christmas. When you are pregnant the options are narrower, although probably not for you, as you don’t smoke or drink!

There is also cashmere hat and gloves on its way, which I thought would keep you warm on the small holding.

I like to give you nice things because I love you, as I do xxx and xxx. I certainly didn’t mean to cause you any anxiety. Please just contribute any unwanted gifts to a local charity shop, who will be glad of any donations at this time of year.

I am ok thanks. I have just got back from spending the night at a Landmark Trust property with some friends in xxx. Yyyy knew Dad at Bar School and, like Dad, he is a real foodie. He cooked an amazing meal and we did lots of toasting and reminiscing about Dad.

Tomorrow is Xxxx's funeral.

I hope all is well with you and the family.

Mum

If she responds with anything less than a lovely reply then you need to go LC. I really hope she thinks about what she said to you.
And then you need to stop sending gifts abs apologising for being so thoughtful and nice!

I fully appreciate why you feel you have to explain yourself and the decisions made in respect to the presents, however I think whatever you write will be dissected by your dd and sil. It will be chewed over and twisted to become a negative.

I'd start to take a step back, personally I'd have simply sent someone far simpler back. 'Thanks for your letter. Please remember they were given to you with nothing but love, with no ill intent. If they aren't suitable, I'm more than happy for you to donate them to a local charity shop.
Take care and talk to you soon - Mum

I know you can't now, but sometimes less is more, especially with a narcissist.

I think your kind response might make her angrier. I feel you are tip toeing around her as you don’t want conflict and you want her to know that she is loved, in hope she will be touched by that and a chink will open, but she knows you love her and is still treating you terribly.
Unless you say “enough now, stop treating me like this” and retreat, it will just go on and on. You are the focus of LBs hatred . If you take a step back, it will leave space for your dd to miss you, to finally grow up and feel ashamed, to shift towards you. If you keep reaching to her you will just make her angrier and more callous.

Also - How can they be pleading poverty when they have at least two houses, is it three at the moment ?
I think you are right that LB controls all the finances, but if you had sent cash it would have gone straight to him.

Chopin, I commented on more than one of your previous threads under another name. I don’t really have much to add except to echo most of the excellent and insightful comments on here.

But I can’t rid myself of a mental image of LB using the phone that you still pay for to go on the internet and look up the price of those very generous gifts and fly into a rage that he hasn’t got his greedy paws on the cold, hard cash.

I could be very wrong, of course, but that’s the general dynamic. I’m truly sorry because you clearly love your DD very much and can’t accept that she will never respond as you so desperately want her to. Maybe she will one day, but the chances of that happening any time soon seem vanishingly small.

Please don't send that message. It's at least 3 paragraphs too long and far too apologetic.

It's the message equivalent of walking around with a 'Kick me' sign on your back.

Baby - I am interested to learn that cotton jersey can be completely natural. Perhaps I will check with the company, thank you.

Random and Borset - I have no intention of paying back the grant for them. It comes within my new resolution of not acting as a 'caretaker' or 'rescuer'!

Corbally - you make some very good points and I am sure that there is an element of truth in what you say. DD1 and LB are very sensitive and defensive and see slights where none are intended, and I am sure that is partly because they feel that there has been disapproval of their life choices. DH, in reply to some unsolicited email from LB (long before he and DD married) in which LB said 'I understand you don't approve of our life choices' replied that, if LB meant choosing not to work, then he didn't approve, and he didn't understand why a couple with such talents wouldn't use those talents (and DH was not in any way confrontational).

DH and I had no wish to impose our lifestyle choices upon our DC, and certainly did not encourage them to follow us into the Law. We wanted them to be happy and fulfilled and find something which they genuinely enjoyed doing. Both LB and DD are now 29 and, with the exception of a holiday job each, have never worked, by choice. They deliberately lived off benefits whilst renovating their first house, have constantly been seeking money from us (DD once said 'You're rich, why can't you just give us the money?'), from LB's family, and from the taxpayer. And yes, I do have views about that, because there are a lot of needy and vulnerable individuals who miss out on essential benefits because of others who know how to play the system. DH and I never had any handouts, we just worked for what we had. We were happy to support our DC in training and education, but not to fund an idle lifestyle.

I am an omnivore and I don't remotely care whether DD or the DGC eat meat, or where they live, or what they do, save for a general concern for their welfare, but I do expect them to behave as independent adults. I expect that DD picks up on this, even though I am genuinely careful not to say anything negative - and, of course, she is now fully occupied with the DGC - which is why there is some underlying hostility, which surfaces from time to time. However, my understanding was that we had agreed to try to rebuild our relationship, which is why these latest developments have been unexpected.

Grawlix - I fear that you are right. DD told me that they had checked the price of the hamper.

I would stop paying for the ‘phone now.
It really is unbelievable that as a married woman of nearly thirty you still have your Mum paying the ‘phone bill for you and your ungrateful, feckless husband! While criticising everything your Mum does !
We all want to help our children out but this is a step too far under the circumstances, and enabling rather than helping the situation.

I wish I had a mum like you who did that much effort to maintain a relationship with me.

It’s so rude to complain about gifts, even if you don’t like them, you say how lovely and thank you. If you DD reacts badly to this last very lovely message, I would go LC. Whatever you do, it’s always going to be wrong, then.

You need to stop trying so hard. Cut off her phone, stop giving presents to her, and limit conversations to once or twice a year. You have 2 other daughters who need you far more - use your energy there.

SirVix - the 'phone contract runs out at the beginning of May and DD knows that it will not be renewed. she has said that she is going to set up a contract with an internet provider in Ireland.

Anna - I take your point, the message is placatory, but I don't feel very apologetic at all. I was trying to convey that the gifts came from a place of love, but that they were not that unusual, just similar to the sort of things I am buying for family and friends, thereby trying to dispel some of the drama.

I am now happy not to have any contact with her this side of Christmas. I am not craving a kind response or even a telephone conversation (especially not a telephone conversation). I just want her to go away for a while. I have now filed this as one of my less pleasant 'to do' tasks which has been completed, so I can put it out of my mind and concentrate on having a good Christmas with DD2 and DD3. This morning, I have been planning gifts for DD2 with DD3 and helping DD2 complete her forms for the solicitor - we are all feeling fairly upbeat here.

The problem is you are still trying to explain and placate as if you are dealing with normal people.

All these years on, you haven't grasped the painful message that they aren't reading anything you say as a normal person would. Extra information doesn't placate, it just fuels the fire.

Remember the drama triangle? To me it read as if you were repositioning yourself as victim. It won't work, you are up against experts.

The only way to win this game is not to play.

Glad you are feeling good and it's done.

I guess just small inexpensive wholesome gifts for the GC from now on.

Glad you have a good time with DD2 & 3

I do hope this is the last of it this side of Christmas, OP. But I have to agree with other posters that there's way too much in your message that can be used against you in future. I do think you are going to get another spiteful message back - perhaps berating you for not understanding that, whilst it may be 'your view' that everyone needs luxury at Christmas it shows how little you understand their needs. I could also imagine them taking your statement about her not drinking and smoking as a criticism that you can't buy them poison as presents! Or that you don't understand how demanding pregnancy is even if you aren't a smoker/drinker. If she were not so heavily pregnant I would say block her number for now, so you don't have to see any messages until after Christmas. But of course you can't.

There is literally no way for you to dispel any drama by offering explanations or detail. That just feeds it. I do think the drama triangle is very useful. You are trying to be right - because you have done nothing wrong! - but what you need to be is not there.

I’m glad you’re feeling better after sending the message. You’ve done all you can at this point so don’t engage any further in relation for the presents.

I think people posting here mean well and can see what a difficult position you are in - some of the advice might seem harsh or maybe come across as that as the written word can appear very direct compared to an in person conversation but sometimes it is clearer to see the real situation when you are not directly and emotionally involved.

Try to accept that you might not see your new grandchild and there is nothing that you can do to influence this. If you do get to see them then that will be a bonus.

My thoughts are with you for your friend’s funeral which must be very difficult to deal with on top of this petty attack from your daughter.

It sounds like you have great friends around you and your other daughters sound like kind and caring people so don’t be afraid to lean on people if you need to if you are feeling upset and continue working with your therapist.

And of course you can always use here as a sounding board for things that you may prefer not to say to your “real life” friends!

@AnnaMagnani

The problem is you are still trying to explain and placate as if you are dealing with normal people.

All these years on, you haven't grasped the painful message that they aren't reading anything you say as a normal person would. Extra information doesn't placate, it just fuels the fire.

Remember the drama triangle? To me it read as if you were repositioning yourself as victim. It won't work, you are up against experts.

The only way to win this game is not to play.

I agree with the above post.

I am delighted though that you are not sunk by this about turn in tone and that you are showing some smart self care by not wanting to be involved with her anymore before Xmas but also have the energy to focus on the mutually reciprocal relationships with your other DDs.

You need their warmth and they need yours. Bask in it.

I am sorry to say that I also agree with PP that your response was too involved and will likely inadvertently cause further friction IMHO - even though the facts and sentiment are beyond reproach.

It is not about the detail with toxic people it’s about the patterns and direction of travel - the details are a trap to draw you in.

I would see every piece of info you give them as handing them the bullets to shoot you with. They will twist and weaponise any phrase, detail, word, punctuation mark from you to beat you with. They want a reaction - don’t give it to them - even if you think it is apologetic, passive aggressive or nuanced. Give them zero reaction.

That message was the total opposite of grey rock and stepping back.

It is launching in deep (however subtlety and gently) and has lots of unnecessary long-winded extraneous emotional detail that gives them purchase and fuel.

Maybe it’s your training as a lawyer to dig into the detail, and choosing to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend and Explain) is obviously instinctive to you and is standard discourse with normal people but it doesn’t work with toxic dysfunctional people

• you are inadvertently triangulated and participating in fuelling a system that hurts you and your DD (as well as your other DDs indirectly and in time your DGCs).

Your DD will only see the horror of him when you get out of the way. You need to let her reach her rock bottom by leaving her fully exposed to him - this is painful and counterintuitive as a mother but it is the only way she will see the light.

You may even have come across to them as having to have the last word or hammering home your point just wrapped in loving language. Dialogues with unstable people don’t work - it’s like wrestling with a pig.

The answer is always bland, grey rock, vanilla - because they are emotional vampires trying to evoke your emotional energy to feast on and fuel their displaced rage.

Starve them of it with detached indifference, distance, bland, vanilla sparse communication.

Anything else is like glue uniting them against you.

You are cleverer than him. You are playing the long game. You can be strategic here and practice delayed gratification. You know the dynamics here and know that with each step back you take, with each comment you don’t make, with each reaction you don’t give - is a day closer to your DD seeing the light.

I also see how you must be feeling really disoriented and deeply hurt that the communication you have had with your DD more recently was authentic and intense - and you are now confused with the about turn. This is classic push / pull PD dynamics.

Don’t allow yourself to feel foolish or angry for being hoodwinked - that’s a waste of your time and the resentment can trigger you to retaliate. Just learn from it that your relationship can’t be real whilst she is with him as he controls every aspect of your relationship with her on a cellular level. I do believe that in time you will get her back - once she has really suffered and he is out of the picture.

She needs to know that your door is always open so you need to back away calmly without the accompanying drama that HE is goading you into to slam it shut.

www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/

This is a very good insight.

Criminal lawyers often advise their clients to respond “no comment” to the Police.

The mumsnet vipers collective are advising you to go “low comment” - say/write as little as possible, no explanations, no justifications, just bland “grey rock” responses!

You have so much to endure with your friend’s funeral as well as another painful Christmas and New Year bearing your grief.

Allow yourself to honour your own grief, your DH and your friend, elevate this and prevent it being polluted and overshadowed by some constantly toxic individuals and this week’s instalment of their nonsense (PJs and scented candles FFS) - don’t dignify it with your finite emotional energy. Turn your back and concentrate on the imperative of your deep grief. I really hope that you can see the wood for the trees here. I don’t know if you have been to another funeral since the death of your DH - but it’s likely to be hugely raw and painful for you. I hope that you have actively sought support from friends and family.

@ESGdance has this completely correct:

I would see every piece of info you give them as handing them the bullets to shoot you with. They will twist and weaponise any phrase, detail, word, punctuation mark from you to beat you with. They want a reaction - don’t give it to them - even if you think it is apologetic, passive aggressive or nuanced. Give them zero reaction.

I have such compassion for the situation you find yourself in. My mother has a similar situation with my sister in law. It is painful to see, as she, like you, is sucked into a cycle of pacifying, justifying and trying to make amends. It's all for nought. Every contact you have with them is fanning the flames. Put crudely, you can't reason with crazy.

You are clearly such a good parent and you don't deserve any of this. But you cannot improve things by engaging, only withdrawing. And I know how harsh that sounds and how easy it is for me to say that. Wishing you well.

I agree with this.
I have a family member with a personality disorder and normal rules do not apply .