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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
Mix56 · 14/12/2021 20:00

Actually, the ultimate response is,
"Sorry My gifts weren't received with pleasure.
Let's just say from here on I'll give a contribution to a charity."

youvegottenminuteslynn · 14/12/2021 20:04

I would go as bland as possible with something like "Ah that's a shame, feel free to donate them elsewhere. Love to you and the kids."

And drop the rope. Please don't send them the cashmere stuff - can you see that it wouldnt matter what you sent them, you will always receive a message like that because LB wants to showcase his dominance by persuading your DD to be cruel to you.

You're all puppets in his game.

Drop the rope. Stop playing.

You cannot win, ever. For as long as she is with him, you are not (in his eyes) a whole, loving, real person. You're an outside force he wants gone so he can make her world as small as possible.

By stepping back, you're removing one method he currently uses to control her. I know it feels counter intuitive but hopefully that makes sense.

Please don't send them anything more, it is completely pointless and will only fuel more of the same from their side.

Absolutely smother your friends and other girls with the love you wish she was also there to accept, this Christmas. And hope she will also accept it too one day, but for now you've done all you can.

You've had an unthinkably tough couple of years and must put your mental health first now or you're going to make yourself ill.

Your DH would have wanted you to be safe, happy and healthy this Christmas. Please let that be your focus and try your very hardest not to try to win them over with gifts or the right words. You can't win her over while she is in his thrall - it is as if she's in a cult and you're an outsider who doesn't believe so you are an enemy of the state.

I think of you quite often having been on your threads for a long while and you sound bloody lovely, please be kind to yourself Thanks

REignbow · 14/12/2021 20:43

I’m also of the opinion that even if you had sent money, It.would.never.be.enough.

Offmyfence · 14/12/2021 20:51

@blahblah789 read OPs post at 16.04, just before your ridiculous post.

And she criticises OP for "bad present" choices. When they give that to her dying father?

ChristmasPlanning · 14/12/2021 21:00

Just read your threads, you sound like a lovely woman. Please put yourself first

mcmooberry · 14/12/2021 21:13

I have also read your previous threads and had been wondering how you were getting on and hoping I hadn't missed a thread. I am so sorry that things seem to be back to square one.

I suspect they are both panicking about money with the expense of the move and the dog breeding money drying up, and are frustrated that you didn't just hand them the cash rather than spend a lot on expensive candles and pyjamas which she isn't going to use (or so she says, jersey pyjamas sound perfect) There would have been a much nicer way to say that than the blunt and ungrateful way she put it which is probably why it's particularly hurtful.

Other people have come up with great advice about how to stop yourself allowing their behaviour to floor you and I agree you should "drop the rope" and concentrate on your other DDs and your friends. You are doing so well after the worst of years without your DH (who I imagine as a Paul Eddington type character in my mind's eye).

BorsetshireBanality · 14/12/2021 21:22

@REignbow

I’m also of the opinion that even if you had sent money, It.would.never.be.enough.
This!

Please don't beat yourself up over her response!

eveningbubble · 14/12/2021 21:28

I have to agree with @youvegottenminuteslynn By stepping back, you're removing one method he currently uses to control her. I know it feels counter intuitive but hopefully that makes sense

Shoxfordian · 14/12/2021 21:41

Cancel any other presents and if you reply just say I’m sorry you feel that way

Totally fine to issue these non apologies to manipulative behaviour

Send nothing else ever

Wherearemymarbles · 14/12/2021 21:43

Gosh,

If I’d ever said something like that to my parents thats the last presents i’d ever have been given!

The one thing abuse victims have in common is that they blame themselves.

Throughout your last thread you were universally advised to step away.
The same is happening in this thread. And will happen in your next thread.

One suggestion - maybe change therapist and find one who will enable you to do the one thing you havnt been able to - step away.

Good luck

AnFiaRuaNua · 14/12/2021 21:53

I have just pieced together that OP's son in law is lobster boy. Oh dear.

Flowers to OP.

x

StEval · 14/12/2021 22:15

Op
Have you heard of Karpmans Drama Triangle?
I think @blahblah789 is correct in trying to get you to look at your own role in this.
You are not an observer looking in at the victim vs persecutor, you are enmeshed in the triangle.
Your DD is playing the role of victim, LB the persecutor and you the rescuer.
They then both make you the victim of their joint abuse.
The roles can move around.
Please look up the roles.
Rescuers get reward from feeling needed and wanted and being the knight on a white horse charging to the rescue ( inappropriately), interfering and over zealous in order to feel good about themselves.
This allows LB to persecute both DD and you in order to feel good about himself and DD has got you dancing to her tune and the satisfying " poor me" role of the victim.
You are involved in their lives and projects to an astonishing degree and this allows LB to abuse your DD and both to financially and emotionally abuse you.
Please get another therapist who knows about this type of interaction in toxic families ( sorry) and step away.

Jk24 · 14/12/2021 22:16

Op I'm sorry but your dd is ungrateful, cheeky, and outright rude. I would tell her to send the gifts back to you because you're not too stuck up your own arse to wear 'normal' pajamas!

HollowTalk · 14/12/2021 23:19

@Maxiedog123

I would wonder if sending beautiful things like Diptyque candles is too much of a reminder, esp to SIL, of the life she had rather than her present life on a rundown farm with multiple small children and a workshy husband.
Yes, I have a sister who was like that. She would be so bloody nasty about perfectly nice presents because of what they represented.
HollowTalk · 14/12/2021 23:22

I would be so tempted to reply with how well did you know your father that you sent him a copy of that book? Honestly, I know she's your daughter and I hate to say this but she's an absolute bloody bitch at times. She might well be influenced by him, I am very sure she is, but she agreed to write that letter and I would find that hard to forgive. I would actually send the reply above and wouldn't send anything else at all.

Alfiemoon1 · 15/12/2021 00:03

Are you sure it’s dd sending the message not sil on her phone. I only ask as I got something similar from dd boyfriend last year on her phone sent to hurt me and piss me off for a reaction of which he didn’t get. My gifts were slated they were exactly what she put on her Christmas list then I was accused of trying to buy her win her over with gifts. She got the same as usual? I just put it down him being a paranoid insecure idiot who as he doesn’t work neither does most of his family was jealous of her presents and felt insecure with what he had given her.

episcomama · 15/12/2021 00:11

@NoSquirrels

Flowers for you, Chopin.

I’d just say

“Ah, that’s a shame, they were sent with love but I’m sorry to hear I didn’t get it quite right! Returning or exchanging won’t be possible so please just donate them to a charity shop if they’re making you anxious”

Then a generic line about what you’ve been up to and that’s it. Don’t offer any more, don’t get drawn in.

I think this response is perfect.
blahblah789 · 15/12/2021 00:16

[quote Offmyfence]@blahblah789 read OPs post at 16.04, just before your ridiculous post.

And she criticises OP for "bad present" choices. When they give that to her dying father? [/quote]
I did read it.
Again, dds behaviour is disgusting. Sil seems at best incredibly manipulative and at worst abusive. Yes the gift they gave ops dh was horrendous.
That doesn’t renounce the fact that what op gave was unsuitable.

To the other poster who asked, I think it was worded perfectly because she asked if op could get a refund, stated the gifts weren’t what was wanted or needed at that time, explained her preferences and reasonings for it for ops future reference, pointed out they were extravagant and expensive and said they don’t want her wasting her money. Her tone may not have been the best admittedly but I don’t understand how any of that is rude or upsetting. Nor do I understand how so many people think it’s acceptable for the people they care about to waste their money on gifts that will be sold on or given anyway. How is it better to lie and pretend you love something, setting the tone for future gifts, future lies and more wasting money than have one honest conversation?
I also don’t think it was bad that dd said about feeling hurt that op doesn’t seem to know her, honest communication is key to any and all relationships, they’re trying to rebuild the trust but she shouldn’t tell her how she feels?
Clearly I’m in the minority but I would hate to think of anyone wasting money on something I’d just give away, that I wasn’t comfortable enough to have an honest conversation or that I couldn’t have a conversation about my own feelings because we were both walking on eggshells.
Honesty= trust= releasing some of the distrust caused by sil in her ear

NoSquirrels · 15/12/2021 00:41

blahblah I think there always value in giving an opposing viewpoint and I think you’ve reacted generously to some posters who’ve questioned you.

But

I also don’t think it was bad that dd said about feeling hurt that op doesn’t seem to know her, honest communication is key to any and all relationships, they’re trying to rebuild the trust but she shouldn’t tell her how she feels?

I think this would only be OK in a relationship where you have mutual trust and understanding- and even then it’s gut huge potential to be hurtful in an email where you can’t judge tone.

I don’t think the OP would be met with understanding and openness that this was an honesty and trust-building exercise if she expressed her own feelings on gifts (the awful inappropriate Solzhenitsyn; the lack of gift at all for OP).

I think you’re right in some ways but even setting aside the history you can’t read that email from her as anything other than shockingly ungrateful and meant to cause upset.

SpringCrocus · 15/12/2021 01:21

@blahblah789
I think you've made your point.
Maybe stop , now?

GooseberryJam · 15/12/2021 01:22

Oh OP. I'm sorry to say that I'm not surprised by this, but I am even more sorry for the immense pain they've inflicted, again, on you.

Your role in their lives is to be wrong. Every single thing you ever do is wrong, with the exception of giving them money. And even then they don't see that as anything to your credit, just some of the compensation they feel entitled to to make up for being wrong all the rest of the time. This is the logic behind your dd's response. You're wrong and it's time again for you to be told that.

Bear in mind that she could sell these things on Ebay If she wanted, as a pp said, and get the money they also crave. They could do that silently and not hurt you. But putting you in your place is the priority.

This is moving to the stage of the cycle you are all in where they want you to react 'badly' - in their view - to being told you're wrong, so that they can justify (again, in their world view) cutting you off. It all fits with the planned move to Ireland. Personally
I think that can't happen too soon as while it's a disaster waiting to happen, it may accelerate a new phase of their family life where your
DD really has to face up to the consequences of the life she's chosen. The distance and the loss may prompt changes that will eventually see her break free. It may not. But you have to step back and let this happen. It's inevitable.

You've had lots of good suggestions about wording a brief and bland reply to her. I would do two other things on top.

One, stop engaging with any ploys for your attention. Those messages asking you to discuss houses or the coming baby: reassure her briefly that you are sure she knows what she's doing. Don't ask questions or engage with the detail. Pull right back and reply as if she's a colleague you don't want to annoy but also don't want to have a deep and meaningful conversation with. You have been thinking those are meaningful conversations. Sorry but they aren't. They are set up to manipulate you and later use to hurt you. Step away from having those anymore, and you will then deny them the power they have over you.

Two, look for a therapist who specialises in toxic family dynamics and abuse. I know you feel secure with your current therapist, but as a pp said, they aren't helping you protect yourself. You keep getting badly hurt. Carry on seeing her for now if you want but look for someone who can help you change this pattern. I really wish you could step back from them both as that's not really happened and I can see how painful it is. The pain will go on unless you change the dynamic and I think you need help to do that as it's so very, very hard by now. Think of 2022 as the point when you will seek the help to do this. Flowers to you.

SpringCrocus · 15/12/2021 04:42

YY What @GooseberryJam says

Offmyfence · 15/12/2021 04:44

@blahblah789
*

I did read it.*

But still thought OPs presents by comparison were unthoughtful?

Again, dds behaviour is disgusting. Sil seems at best incredibly manipulative and at worst abusive. Yes the gift they gave ops dh was horrendous.
That doesn’t renounce the fact that what op gave was unsuitable.

Unsuitable? Or is DD being deliberately obtuse?
_*

*_
To the other poster who asked, I think it was worded perfectly because she asked if op could get a refund, stated the gifts weren’t what was wanted or needed at that time, explained her preferences and reasonings for it for ops future reference, pointed out they were extravagant and expensive and said they don’t want her wasting her money. Her tone may not have been the best admittedly but I don’t understand how any of that is rude or upsetting.

Perfectly worded? But her tone was not the best? Can it be both?

Nor do I understand how so many people think it’s acceptable for the people they care about to waste their money on gifts that will be sold on or given anyway. How is it better to lie and pretend you love something, setting the tone for future gifts, future lies and more wasting money than have one honest conversation?

Do you think the DD cares about her mother? Do the think the DD cared about her dying father? Do the think the gift to her dying father was the reflection of a caring DD?

I also don’t think it was bad that dd said about feeling hurt that op doesn’t seem to know her, honest communication is key to any and all relationships, they’re trying to rebuild the trust but she shouldn’t tell her how she feels?
Clearly I’m in the minority but I would hate to think of anyone wasting money on something I’d just give away, that I wasn’t comfortable enough to have an honest conversation or that I couldn’t have a conversation about my own feelings because we were both walking on eggshells.
Honesty= trust= releasing some of the distrust caused by sil in her ear

Some things are more important than money and the year her DM is dealing with the death of her husband, is not the time to decide "honesty" is what's important. Not over bloody Christmas presents! So, the money is spent already, it can't be unspent, you don't think DD could've just been grateful this year and saved some ideas for DM for next year that would be within her exacting standards?

What do you think DD would've gratefully received and been pleased with? Cash? So she can buy her own things? Because DMs are never ever going to be good enough?

You like the OPs DD seem totally money motivated? All "if my mother didn't know me" and got me the wrong things. You both sound like completely spoilt brats.

I wonder what fabulously thoughtful presents the DD is getting for her DM this year. Her DM would welcome a bit of warmth and love, not to be criticised for every good deed she's done.

ESGdance · 15/12/2021 04:54

All the detail and drama is an attempt to draw you in for a fight. Know the patterns of abuse.

React to it (this one time) in the privacy of your own home / mind / with friends IRL and on here to help you settle and once you have stopped reverberating then respond with the bland text.

They have done you up like a kipper emotionally this time.

Let it be the last time.

Now YOU set the pace and distance for any communication. This gives you a perfect window of opportunity to withdraw and protect yourself

mathanxiety · 15/12/2021 05:03

I second every word of youvegottenminuteslyn's post of Tue 14-Dec-21 20:04:05.

It really is like dealing with someone in a cult. He has her in his power.

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