Wife and male thread. Not sure about it

[Enginesear]

I have a situation that could really do with some level headed mumsnet wisdom please, before I try and navigate it, because I just don’t know if I have genuine cause for concern, or am just overthinking and being paranoid.

To set the scene. DW and I married for 10 years, with 2 primary school age children. We’ve always had a rock solid relationship with no issues.

We both have a shared interest/hobby, which she has gradually got into, as have the kids, and in recent years she has become the greater enthusiast. Through this she’s made a few new friends, male and female. but this is about one male friend in particular, let’s call him Steve.
DW has struck up a close friendship with Steve. I’ve had no problem with this up til now - she has lots of male friends. I’ve met Steve a couple of times and he seemed amiable and decent.

Steve is single and lives alone elsewhere in the country, but attends most of the events for this interest which happen in our area. My DW, a couple of years back started showing an interest in attending occasional events elsewhere in the country, and stays overnight at Steve’s on those occasions. Again I’ve had no problem with this, trust has never been an issue, and a I’ve never felt any reason to object.

However, recently a few red flags have started waving, that make me worry that there’s more to this friendship, like:

-These overnights at Steve’s have become more frequent, and have become full weekends rather than overnight stays. Two weekends on the trot now planned for after Christmas. This causes a bit of disruption to the kids hobbies/clubs, which I don’t mind now and then, but these weekends away now seem a greater priority to her than the kids clubs, time together as a couple, or anything else that could otherwise have been planned.

-She talks about him a lot. I don’t think she realises how much.

-They text each other a lot. I’m not privy to the contents of these conversations and have never considered it any of my business.

-There’s an event over the Christmas holiday that we’d talked about going to as a family. She seems to be steering me away from going though, insisting that youngest DC won’t want to go (youngest DC has told me he does want to go), which is weird.

There are other subtle little things but these are the main things bothering me.

I feel awful about it because I don’t want to poison the well by saying I’ve got an issue with it, or make her feel like she can’t be friends with who she wants, especially if it turns out that it’s all innocent. On the other hand their friendship is, at the very least, taking up enough space and time to be detrimental to family life. Not sure how I tackle this without implying some sort of impropriety on her part. Any advice, suggestions, head wobbling much appreciated.

Might be a bit of a waste of money with a PI at his house though, unless they actually undress together in the bedroom window or smooch in the street. They are supposed to be at Steve's place: it's not a secret.
Might be more useful to check out the event before Christmas, as it sounds like it could be an alibi for something else.
Someone else I know found evidence using a key logger, though I don't know about the legality.

Well suss. I would also check phone but steer clear of looking at anything not related to Steve. Its not a carte blanche to snoop into everything.

If you've got to the point of spying on phones or hiring an investigator, the trust is already gone. And if there's nothing to be suspicious of, you've now trashed any trust between you. It's a lose-lose situation.

I'm amazed by the number of people who think that having a conversation is the worst option here! As pp have mentioned, the reaction to that conversation will tell you everything you need to know.

@beastlyslumber

If you've got to the point of spying on phones or hiring an investigator, the trust is already gone. And if there's nothing to be suspicious of, you've now trashed any trust between you. It's a lose-lose situation.

I'm amazed by the number of people who think that having a conversation is the worst option here! As pp have mentioned, the reaction to that conversation will tell you everything you need to know.

Even when I had read concrete evidence on my husbands phone that he had slept with many women behind my back, been fired for sexual misconduct and essentially was a completely different person than I thought he was, he lied to my face so well it was scary. He didn't know I knew the extent I did and he made up a completely false scenario to answer all of the concerns he did know about. He had an answer planned for everything and he sold it. He had conversations with friends about how I would never find out and he would lie to the bitter end. If I wasn't armed with evidence I would of believed him. Just like I believed him at first when he cried to me that he'd lost his job due to being performance managed out when it was actually for repeated acts of sexual misconduct and forcing himself on women. Don't underestimate how good some people are at lying. He is a complete narcissist but I did not know this at the time and thought I married a good man who was a brilliant dad. My comments are obviously jaded by my experience but honestly he has shown me you just cannot trust anybody even if you think you know them better than anyone. You only see what someone is willing to show you. I don't know if I'd go full movie plot with a PI but if you have legitimate concerns and an opportunity to look at their phone or laptop then look. It's better to be wrong and feel guilty for a bit that you snooped then it is to live a lie. Once you open a dialogue on the matter they will lie and start deleting evidence, I'd have an easier time in my divorce if I'd taken more screenshots before he caught on that I knew and removed all traces.

As pp have mentioned, the reaction to that conversation will tell you everything you need to know.
You can only have that conversation once, and (as I describe from my experience above) if the reaction doesn't tell you anything then it drives them further underground and they go on the attack, gaslighting you as this confuses you and muddies the waters, making it easier to hide their affair.

It might work for some, but even when I put it very nicely to my exh, in a non-accusatory manner, that his behaviour was like that of a man having an affair, his reaction told me nothing at all.
He denied it up to the moment I had actual proof of what he was doing. Even then it was hard to make him leave.

he lied to my face so well it was scary. He didn't know I knew the extent I did
Exactly my experience. At first when I read the emails, I just pretended as if I was guessing, and said "I bet you [did this thing I just read you did]". He had the lies ready. And you can't tell whether someone is upset because you are accusing an innocent person, or upset because they have been caught.

I know people can be excellent liars, and it might be hard to judge. But if you're snooping on phones/emails then you have already lost trust, so what's the point?

However, in this case, there doesn't have to be any kind of accusation made. It's enough for OP to say he doesn't like the time away, she's not prioritising family etc. Those are serious enough matters to talk about and don't require spying on anyone. If the meetings continue and she stays checked out of family life after it's been made clear it's not okay, then that's that, surely?

You are very understanding OP. I have to say I trust my DH completely but would not accept him staying at another woman's house for an entire weekend and I feel awful for you how she is doing that.

if you're snooping on phones/emails then you have already lost trust, so what's the point?
What I said above - what's the alternative, if they don't leave or admit it? Sit and watch them have the affair while you go mad? Leave them without knowing if you're right?

Well yes, if you don't trust them, leave. If you've heard what they have to say and still think they're lying, then what choice do you have. It's over.

"Without trust, there can be no love!" - Moulin Rouge

Check her phone. She is definitely cheating, so you will be justified in hindsight.
Put yourself in Steve's situation. Would you, as a single man, make a move on a woman who was spending weekends with you in preference to her family?
I'd say the chances were pretty high and that if she'd rebuffed you, the result wouldn't be her increasing the amount of time she spends with you.

If you leave without proof of their affair, you will never know if you did the right thing. And you may not be the only one to blame yourself. Your friends and family might think you are a nasty shit for leaving your dp out of the blue. You might get accused by your dp of being the one having an affair.
This is a lose-lose situation, we're just advising OP on damage control.

I did the having an honest and not accusatory conversation about my exh's too much time spent with a colleague and mentionitis. He apologised, said he could see how it would look like that and he would distance himself (obvs it was all her as she was going through a hard time and needed a friend etc). I felt really guilty for even asking him.Naturally when it came out later that he was having a full on affair with her I regretted the guilt. And that I'd believed him.
They lie. They might even want to believe their own lies as some sort of cognitive dissonance. The honest conversation is unlikely to tell you anything I'm afraid.

I hope it isn't what it looks like. But at the very least she is choosing someone else over your family and couple time and that's an issue in itself

@beastlyslumber

Well yes, if you don't trust them, leave. If you've heard what they have to say and still think they're lying, then what choice do you have. It's over.

"Without trust, there can be no love!" - Moulin Rouge

"without trust, there can be no love". A quote perfect in the hands of a cheater.

I agree that as you are married with dc there is a lot at stake.
I would want to know for sure before leaving her.

That way if you leave her, you can have the evidence at hand in case she tries to make you look like the baddie.

If it was a boyfriend/ girlfriend situation with no dc or financial issues at stake, strong suspicion alone would make me want to just walk away from it all.

Have you considered how you'd feel if you checked her phone and didn't find anything?

Would that be enough to reassure you or would you feel she may not have kept anything suspicious in case you checked her phone?

What I never understand about these conversations is the 'your marriage is over if you don't 100% trust each other'. I know everyone sees this differently, but for me trust is part instinct part decision. A part of you feels you could trust this person, the rest of you decides to do it. I don't see it's a terrible thing to question that decision if the person you trusted is starting to behave in a somewhat untrustworthy manner!

I am sorry for your situation OP. You have every right to feel as you do even if their friendship is platonic. Perhaps communicating that her attention seems to have drifted from your marriage and your family life without accusation might be a way to approach it?

@ravenmum

I think once you start spying on your spouse you don't have a relationship any more I only started spying when I suspected that I didn't have a relationship any more, because my exh was cheating on me. I just wanted to end the misery rather than have it drag out longer while my exh made up his mind. I think that's what OP is doing here too, alas.

Same here. I checked my exh's phone (well, ipad) when I was at breaking point with his behaviour and lack of answers to questions.

I found what id didn't want to find but what I needed to find and my marriage ended that day. It was awful but meant I could move on and not feel like I was going mad because that was worse by far than any other feeling that followed.

I think the idea we all go round snooping on phones just willynilly is rarely the reality— we usually snoop when there is stuff going on that doesn’t feel right— the self preservation instinct kicks in— as I said above I have a feeling most of the ‘I could never do this’ people are ones who have not been in the position of knowing something isn’t ok- but not knowing what and want to know what they are dealing with before upending other people’s lives and their own. I have several friends who were totally shat on and have said they now wished they had snooped as something felt ‘off’ at the time

Agreed. Ignore the people telling you not to check. They have obviously never been betrayed before.

I've been betrayed loads. I just happen to have a different opinion on this. For me, snooping is just a horrible, controlling thing to do. I understand why people feel it's justified, but I think it ought to be a last resort. OP hasn't even tried talking to his wife yet!

I don't see a problem with asking to see your partner's phone, though. No reason why he can't ask her to hand it over on the spot.

🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩

The trouble is that if they know you are suspicious, they are more likely to delete messages. Though you might be lucky - my exh knew I was suspicious, but also didn't think I'd catch him.
Asking to look at someone's phone is controlling, as you are effectively saying "Show me your phone or I'll assume you're a liar". So: also problematic.

I do feel bad about having snooped on my exh. I wish he'd left me instead. But I also feel sorry that I waited quite so long, trying out everything else I could think of first, as the mind games during that period were very bad for my mental health; I was on quite a high level of ADs, couldn't sleep or work properly, and it took a long time to work through the gaslighting issues. (When I said I wanted to move out with the kids, without proof, he told me I was being horrible for doing that to them, and I believed him, and stayed, and hated myself.)

Thanks for all the continued replies, they’re really appreciated.

It’s an interesting discussion about whether or not to check a partners phone in cases like this. I’ve read all the replies and thought very carefully about both sides of the argument, and have decided that I’m not going to check her phone. I just can’t. It would feel like an act of distrust and trying to catch her out...despite the bleak picture painted by the replies here, I still hang on to the hope that my wife and Steve’s relationship is still at the stage where it’s a platonic friendship that has crossed some boundaries, rather than a physical or emotional affair.

The plan is to talk to her about it, set out my point of view and boundaries, without any accusations or insinuating, and gauge her response. She’ll either engage in the conversation and we’ll come to a resolution, or she’ll try and shut me down with gaslighting tactics. And that will tell me, if not explicitly in black and white, more or less what I need to know.

Good luck, I hope it all works out for you.