DH has arranged to spend Christmas with his parents….on his own

[Jisforjuggling]

This might just be the end of us.
The ILs live in a different country and don’t speak English. We stayed with them just before the first lockdown and he has managed to visit twice since (albeit once was for a funeral). We are booked to visit in feb half term. DH wanted to go for NY. I can’t. It’s a day travelling each way to get there and back and I have work commitments that just make it not worth while. I said he could take DC for the last week of the holidays. This would be the first time has has taken the children on his own and he knew I was apprehensive. I don’t trust his manipulative overbearing mother. This was huge for me. DH presents me with the flights he is proposing to take. He has turned this into an 11 day trip which also involves cancelling 2 long-standing holiday plans. I said no. I agreed to 6 days, 7 at a push. He says I’m being unfair and preventing him from seeing his parents. He sent me a text last night saying he has booked to go on his own for a week over Christmas. In 11 years we have never spent Christmas with his family….in his words ‘they don’t really celebrate Christmas’. It’s never even been discussed as an option. I’m considering telling him if he goes through with this we are finished. (Yes, iceberg and tip are valid comments).

And no I don't think seeing them supersedes existing plans - I consider it rude to cancel arrangements outside of a real necessity

the amount of rigidity in comments like this just make you looks ridiculous.

Plans are hierarchical and it’s perfectly acceptable to cancel certain plans as long as it’s done with good grace, notice, a genuine apology and an attempt to rearrange.

Cancelling a coffee date with a friend for an interview is fine.

Cancelling attending a dinner party to go to a family wedding is fine.

Cancelling a meeting with your peer because a member of the board wants to see you is fine.

Cancelling a shopping trip with a friend because your sister wants to go wedding dress shopping is fine.

Cancelling a trip to the cinema because your in laws have never spent Christmas with your DC is fine.

Like I said Pegasus - real necessity. So cancelling a coffee date for an interview, no question. Taking time off work when shift patterns are set months in advance, or being without your dc for 11 days at Christmas, or cancelling things you have paid for/ really looking forward to, because dh has thrown his toys out of the pram - no way!

[quote Jsku]@ClaudiaJ1

Yes - I saw that she invited them to travel to her country. Travelling to where the grandparents live has not been considered, according to the OP.
And - Op’s cultural supremacy comes loud and clear here. Apparently continental way of celebrating Xmas eve - isn’t celebrating in her book.
As to the tree - GP probably don’t bother as there are no kids around. And that is easily fixable.

As someone who lives in a different country to my parents - I don’t think OP understands or empathises with her H. It’s is hard enough to live far away. And it has been made more difficult in the past few years.
So - even if as a family they haven’t traveled there for Xmas - I can see why he’d want to travel this year.
And February plans may get cancelled anyway - as we all know one can’t plan too much in advance these days as things get locked up at a short notice.

That all said - I do think he is behaving like a brat as well.
Not sure how they come back from that.[/quote]
@Jsku Travelling to where the grandparents live has not been considered, according to the OP.

Ok you clearly haven't read the OP's posts. They went there 2 years ago, and now they're going there in February. The OP has visited the grandparents, they haven't visited them! READ the posts again, fully this time. It's clear his parents don't care to have contact with OP, her husband or their own grandchildren.

@ClaudiaJ1 the GP have visited us, usually once a year, but Christmas invites have been declined. FIL has zero interest in DGC, MIL thinks she is interested, but this translates into sitting them in front of cartoons in a language they don’t understand and refusing to do any of the day trips we do unless it’s shopping.
Pre covid we usually visit twice a year as a family and DH usually does a solo trip.

I’m beginning to sound like a record.

@Pyewackect

I haven’t said he couldn’t go and take the children-

............. does he need you permission ?. Now I sort of understand.

Um yes, to take children out of the country you do need the other parents' permission @Pyewackect . This is basic common sense. So you question is quite bizarre. Especially when considering there are movies like Not Without My Daughter which explain WHY permission is necessary when it comes to certain countries.

I hope your post was tongue in cheek and not serious.

@ClaudiaJ1

Quoting OP: “ In 11 years we have never spent Christmas with his family……. It’s never even been discussed as an option.”
So - in her own words. They did travel there, just not at Xmas.

As to the misconception of needing permission of the other parent to travel abroad. It simply isn’t true. Not in Europe in any case.

I am divorced. Both I and my ex travel with the kids. We obviously, discuss timing of holiday split. But neither of us get to approve or disapprove the other’a travel plans.

Ironically for this thread - my ex used to also be quite controlling about my travel with the kids to see my family. At least he tried to be.
My annual trip hope with the kids was a source of heated discussion. And days were equally argued over.
He also insisted on all Xmases being with his family as mine ‘don’t celebrate Xmas’.

This behaviour over holidays was one of the examples of unreasonable behaviour that I used in my divorce.

@Jsku I do think you are wrong about the travel thing. When children travel with 1 parent it is presumed that consent has been given. If a child is taken out of the country without the consent or knowledge of the other parent it is classified as kidnap. I have been asked at immigration about parental rights and travelling in the past.

You need parental permission from the other parent before travelling abroad. We have always been advised to have this in writing whilst travelling.

[quote Jisforjuggling]@Taytocrisps, thank you for all the suggestions. The kids don’t know, and previously he has left telling them to me. As per prev posts, even if I cancel our plans I work shifts. I only have 4 days in a row off. I’m simply not making a 2 day round trip for 48 hours with his parents (or anyone else). We are booked to go in feb. We have discussed going for 2 weeks in April or the summer. If he’s that desperate to go for Christmas (and he has never previously said he is) then we could look at going next year (although I’ll still be doing lots of travelling for very little time with the ILs).[/quote]
Ah, ok. So (if I have it right) you only have four days off work together over the holiday period which makes it impractical for you to go on the trip. You agreed to let your DH take them away on his own for 6/7 days, but he wanted to take them for 11 days and I guess this means you wouldn't see much of them over the holidays. And which would also impact the plans you'd already made. When you wouldn't agree to this, he went ahead and booked for a week which includes Christmas Day. It strikes me that he's cutting off his nose to spite his face. He hasn't gained any extra time with his parents as you'd already agreed to him spending 6/7 days with them. But he'll lose out on spending Christmas with his wife and DC. And his parents will lose out on time with their grandchildren (and vice versa). So there are no winners in this scenario.

It's a bit shitty that he left it to you to break it to the DC last time he cancelled the holiday. He should face up to the consequences of his actions.

There is no border control when leaving the U.K. So - there are no checks of permissions in the way you are suggesting.
Some countries - for eg South Africa do require a single parent to carry a permission letter - and you won’t be able to board the flight without it.
But otherwise - there are no checks.

Generally - when you divorce you have a child arrangement order that you agree, or have the court agree. And in that document it specifies how much time the child spends with each parent.
And within the time they are with the other parent - they can travel.

U.K.gov does mention parents needing to agree. But it also clearly states that travel for up to 28 days doesn’t need to receive official permission - if you are the parent per child arrangement order

‘ You can take a child abroad for 28 days without getting permission if a child arrangement order says the child must live with you, unless a court order says you can’t.’

Point is - if OP divorces - she will lose her ability to tightly control her children movements.

Just to add to it - if you were to divorce and opposed to his travelling with children, you can of course try to prevent him through court from traveling abroad.
But it’s unlikely to be considered a reasonable request. And court will grant him permission to travel, if you were to escalate.

Mentioning plastic bags and 3mo babies won’t be taken as a proof that kids shouldn’t be allowed to visit their grand parents.

@Eleganz

You need parental permission from the other parent before travelling abroad. We have always been advised to have this in writing whilst travelling.

I have a different name to my child and I've never been asked at passport or check in.

@Eleganz

You need parental permission from the other parent before travelling abroad. We have always been advised to have this in writing whilst travelling.

It depends on the country, some require the other parent’s permission to travel alone with kids.

But to leave the country, you only need the other parent’s permission if there is an ongoing court process about care of the children or you have a residence order, but even so, you would only need that permission if you were taking the kids abroad for more than 30 days.

Having said that, there is nothing stopping either parent from taking the kids abroad and staying there if there was no order or court process, so… if your marriage is not good and the other parent seems agreeable to the idea of moving back home one day… hide the passports now.

Literally everything Jsku has said about the law, permissions to take children out of the country, child arrangement orders, is wrong.

[quote Jisforjuggling]@Jsku I do think you are wrong about the travel thing. When children travel with 1 parent it is presumed that consent has been given. If a child is taken out of the country without the consent or knowledge of the other parent it is classified as kidnap. I have been asked at immigration about parental rights and travelling in the past.[/quote]
Does he come from a country that has signed The Hague Convention? A relatives children were taken out of the country to his home country which isn't a Hague Convention country. The Foreign Office response? Nothing can be done.

@kittybiscuits

Literally everything Jsku has said about the law, permissions to take children out of the country, child arrangement orders, is wrong.

No it isn't!

GrandmasCat
That is correct.

@Jisforjuggling what are the plans that you have booked that you don’t want to change?

@Jisforjuggling

Surely it's on his mind that they may not have many more Christmases

His GPs lived into their 90s. There is a good chance we have at least 20 left.

Granted but if the last two years have taught us anything it's not to take stuff for granted. Some of us have been unable to be at our own parents/grandparents funerals.

In thin onname probably has it in one which is that he regrets the relationship he hasn't had with them, due to living far away. It doesn't matter that it's for your own sanity, it's just sad and every so often you find yourself going home and inevitably reminding yourself about why you left but being glad you made the effort and sucked up the shite all the same.
That's why I think you should rise above it and let him get on with it. He'll either change his plans or not but won't be able to hold any unreasonable ultimatums over you. I don't see why this thread has evolved into mad speculation about parental abduction since he appears ti be travelling solo?

@kittybiscuits

Are you divorced, living in England and regularly traveling abroad with children?
Everything I said is based on real life experience, as well as hours I have spent with my solicitor, etc.
What is your statement based on?

@Jisforjuggling
If you are basing your opinion on a question you asked passport control staff at the airport in England, I am afraid it isn’t correct.
Or maybe they misunderstood your question.

‘Taking kids out of a country’ - can mean either a short trip, or relocation.
So yes - for relocation you do need parental permission. And it can be considered abduction. And, sadly, often it’s quite hard to get the kids back in those cases.

Short trips don’t require your permission. Not if you were to be divorced.

So you can only continue to control it if you stay married.
(And btw it applies to all kinds of other decisions about kids. For example, I have divorced friends who disagree with their ex partners about covid vaccination for their kids. But as long as one parent signs it, the other has no way to insist on their opinion.)

[quote PegasusReturns]@Jisforjuggling what are the plans that you have booked that you don’t want to change?[/quote]
The OP has already said it's based just around her days off which are 4 days. That's her plans wanting to see her children on her 4 days off, despite seeing them everyday.
The OP said the bottom line is she just doesn't want the children to go for the 11 days, that's it. No huge plans to change she doesn't want them to go for 11 days!

In one breath they're unsafe, then they can go for 7 days, but not 11 🤔

I absolutely get where you are coming from and its not controlling. And all those saying your DH can take the DC away at christmas for 11 days and you shouldn't be bothered are just being obtuse.

I think most mothers who had only 4 days off over xmas and their DP wanted to take the DC away for 11 days would not be happy about it. I for one, would like to spend all if not most of xmas holidays with my DC and my DP. But like you would compromise on a few days if it was important to my DP. You compromised, but he abused that. You said no, thats not on, and hes thrown his toys out the pram.

The fact you agreed to 6-7 days is fine, but your DH has the arse about it and has now decided to just go on his own but actually over xmas day. I think that is really really shit of him.
If there was some underlying thing such as his parents were very ill or very old or really really wanted to see him, thats different. And you'd know about it.
It isn't. He is having a strop and basically saying a big fuck you to his family because he didn't get his way. he is willing to disappoint his DC on xmas day of all days just to spite you because he didn't get his way.

For me christmas is about spending time with your family and yes you fit in seeing parents and other relatives where you can. But the priority should be your actual immediate family unit.
Travel with covid at the moment is hard and really if its not necessary, why do it. You are seeing them in february, thats hardly years later. They live in another country, so its hardly a quick trip.

Factor in the MIL is flaky with the DC's safety. trust me, I know where you are coming from with that one!

I think it is very unreasonable for any parent to bugger off over xmas with or without the DC leaving the other partner behind if both are not in agreement and there is no urgent or valid reason to do so.

I don’t get the issue tbh

Seems you were unfair to not let him take the children there for 11 days - a few days more than you’d like isn’t a big deal surely

It’s not like he’s taking a small baby - your kids are old enough

I’d be so annoyed if my husband said to me I can’t take my child back to my home country to visit family!!

If you won’t let him take the kids then it seems he has no choice but to go alone.

The kids will be happy when they wake up and have their presents anyway - doubt they will care too much whether dad is there or not -your making it into a bigger deal / making a fuss /creating problems before there are any.

Tbh if you want him there for Xmas then let him take the kids as planned afterwards

and tell him a man who chooses to abandon his children on Christmas isn’t a good dad

Abandons? Howay

@RedHot22

I love the way words are twisted to justify.

Don’t really celebrate Christmas isn’t the same as not celebrating Christmas.

Quite.