DH has arranged to spend Christmas with his parents….on his own

[Jisforjuggling]

This might just be the end of us.
The ILs live in a different country and don’t speak English. We stayed with them just before the first lockdown and he has managed to visit twice since (albeit once was for a funeral). We are booked to visit in feb half term. DH wanted to go for NY. I can’t. It’s a day travelling each way to get there and back and I have work commitments that just make it not worth while. I said he could take DC for the last week of the holidays. This would be the first time has has taken the children on his own and he knew I was apprehensive. I don’t trust his manipulative overbearing mother. This was huge for me. DH presents me with the flights he is proposing to take. He has turned this into an 11 day trip which also involves cancelling 2 long-standing holiday plans. I said no. I agreed to 6 days, 7 at a push. He says I’m being unfair and preventing him from seeing his parents. He sent me a text last night saying he has booked to go on his own for a week over Christmas. In 11 years we have never spent Christmas with his family….in his words ‘they don’t really celebrate Christmas’. It’s never even been discussed as an option. I’m considering telling him if he goes through with this we are finished. (Yes, iceberg and tip are valid comments).

@HollowTalk

I really wish they'd bring back comprehension lessons in school.

I agree…

*Except she is. The visit has to be on her terms, and when she dictates. I can completely understand why, after years of OP dictating when they visit and see his family, that he has decided he has had enough.

I also suggest you read the OP yourself…her husband wanted to take the children for New Years. So I have taken the facts into account…

OP is also leaving out crucial information…namely what are these long standing holiday plans that mean the 4 extra days just cannot happen.*

Apologies you're correct NY was mention in the OP.

However she really isn't preventing anything. Together they'd agreed 6 days, her husband then announced he was going for 11 days. OP said no, 6 at a push 7. His response to that was to book to go alone at a different time. The only person who has prevented the children going is their father.

OP also doesn't have to explain her plans. They could be panto tickets, a family event, something with friends. They could be the only plans the OP has due to work commitments, so she's unwilling to give them up.

Where exactly does it say OP has spent years dictating their visits? There you go again making stuff up to suit your own agenda. From what she says, plus his actions of booking for Christmas, her husband is free to plan visits for himself whenever he chooses but obviously visits for the children need to be discussed and decided by both parents.

@PinkWednesdays

The visit has to be on her terms, and when she dictates. I can completely understand why, after years of OP dictating when they visit and see his family, that he has decided he has had enough

Please list the evidence for this in my pp.

As for cancelling plans- yes they could be cancelled (anything can be cancelled) but I still don’t want the DC going for 11 days

The evidence - Because of the way you have reacted to 4 extra days. You allowed 7 days, but 11 days is potentially the end of your marriage…that sounds like someone who uses emotional blackmail to get what they want.

Because of the way you have decided their way of celebrating Christmas isn’t good enough for your children.

Because of the way you suggest that the lives of you 8 and 10 year olds are at risk.

There you go again making stuff up to suit your own agenda

Again? I thought we established it was you who hadn’t read the OP properly?

OP, I think it sounds as if your relationship with your husband has you stuck in parent mode and him in child mode, and you're weary of it.

there are two ways of getting out of that:

• ending the relationship (though you will still be co-parents so it's not final)
• changing the dynamic.

There is a pattern here of him responding like an emotional child to an authoritative parent (tantrumming and not going on holiday, and then relenting and wanting to come, is just like a child responding antrily to a boundary, running away to a bedroom and missing a meal or an outing, and crying and joining later). While it's obvious to us all that it would be better if he didn't behave like an emotional child, the clever part is how you can set him free from this by behaving less like an authoritative parent.

The tricky bit is that you need to behave with authority where the things at stake really matter and where you seem to be the only personal capable of making rational decisions (eg around child safety). So you just have to leave all that where it is.

Can you just let the rest go?

Whether you actually separate in the end or not, I wouldn't issue an ultimatum, because you need to free yourself from this tiresome role as much as you need to be freed from the exhaustion of putting up with the part that he plays.

Let him go over Christmas. Give him a present when he comes back. Have a good time, see friends and family, don't do anything strongly reactive (either hostile to him, or weirdly extravagantly celebrating his absence). You can be honest in private about how hurt you are that he has done this without it triggering a huge reaction of admonishment and punishment that he will then have to re-react to.

(I notice he doesn't like you working - of course he doesn't - mummies don't work (in his child-head). Again - of course, he doesn't get to decide whether you work or not - but somehow instead of him framing this as mummy angrily withdrawing care, he needs to see this as an adult getting on with life and co-parenting in a modern way - if he can't then maybe you don't belong together)

If you can re-make the dynamic and improve the relationship, then good.

If you can't, and you split, then better you leave as an adult deciding to co-parent with another adult outwith a marriage, then as one person angrily withdrawing from another because needs aren't being met, then boomeranging back filled with grief and loss, and then more punishment happening, and ... and... and

Nope. DH has made no effort to teach the DC his language. Never speaks to them in it. I, on the other hand, have had lessons, can speak a tiny bit and follow the gist of many conversation. DC1 is teaching herself by duolingo. DH doesn’t engage because he says she is doing it wrong

^

So even if the kids did go, they can't speak to Gp's anyway?

Sounds like you've flogged a dead horse for long enough, op.

Of course this coming to a head about his parents over Christmas is directly related to his responding to you as if to a parent. He doesn't want to live in his home country, he doesn't want to bring his own family up speaking his native language, he has taken deliberate steps to separate himself from his parents in lots of ways and is very ambivalent about this. In their absence, and almost as if to protect himself from them, he is putting you in the parental place, and this also allows him to blame you for the separation. none of this is fair of course but if you play into the parental role, you reinforce it

Because of the way you suggest that the lives of you 8 and 10 year olds are at risk.

^

A 3 year old and a plastic bag could be catastrophic. It really could. Not an overreaction

@PinkWednesdays none of those examples suggest I’ve dictated anything. I might not like them, but there is no dictation. I don’t think you’d have to look too hard on MN to find other parents who would be unhappy at their children being in another country without them for 11days.

@PinkWednesdays

The evidence - Because of the way you have reacted to 4 extra days. You allowed 7 days, but 11 days is potentially the end of your marriage…that sounds like someone who uses emotional blackmail to get what they want.

Because of the way you have decided their way of celebrating Christmas isn’t good enough for your children.

Because of the way you suggest that the lives of you 8 and 10 year olds are at risk.

The OP states she was fine for 6 days, 7 at a push. 11 is nearly double 6. Not that difficult to understand why she isn't happy.

@SenselessUbiquity thank you. Can you suggest any books on the subject?

[quote Jisforjuggling]@PinkWednesdays none of those examples suggest I’ve dictated anything. I might not like them, but there is no dictation. I don’t think you’d have to look too hard on MN to find other parents who would be unhappy at their children being in another country without them for 11days.[/quote]
We’re talking about 4 extra days, that’s what makes you unreasonable here.

In any event, if you feel this is the final straw and want a divorce, I suspect he will be able to take the children out of the country for longer periods for times that they are under his control.

@PinkWednesdays might as well make it a month or a year then! Your thought process has no logic. As their parent I get to decide what is reasonable and what isn’t.

The evidence - Because of the way you have reacted to 4 extra days. You allowed 7 days, but 11 days is potentially the end of your marriage…that sounds like someone who uses emotional blackmail to get what they want.

The irony after your comment in response to someone mentioning comprehension.

Maybe give all of her posts another read.

The OP is not talking about ending her marriage because her husband wants to take the children away for 11 days instead of 7.

They originally agreed 6 days. He changed this without discussion. Do you not think a parent has the right to at least be consulted about how long their children are out of the country, away from them during the school holidays?

OP said this didn't work for her she wanted to stick with the original plans, because they had other things arranged but he was still free to take the children for 6/7 days. So, not preventing them going on their original agreed upon trip, just not going along with the changes he'd made.

His response was to book for himself to go alone over Christmas. This is why the OP is angry and upset. Her husband has thrown a tantrum and is punishing her for not going along with his plans. He is also punishing his children. He has history for doing this kind of thing. OP has likely reached the end of her tether with his childish, manipulative behaviour when he doesn't get his own way.

As their parent I get to decide what is reasonable and what isn’t

You both get to decide OP.

Gosh you are getting such a hard time here.
I think just say to him, "You really want to spend Christmas without the kids and me" "Then go". No more discussion but let him explain to the children that he won't be there for Christmas.

You are totally reasonable that the kids can't go for 11/12 days with out you. In fact I am not sure I would allow my children to go without me, given the info you have provided about your IL's.

If he does go, I would be very disappointed and will assess my future with him. The kids will be very upset and will not forget this in a hurry.

I suspect once he has time to reflect he will not be going and if he does you know his priorities.

@PinkWednesdays

As their parent I get to decide what is reasonable and what isn’t

You both get to decide OP.

Erm exactly 🤦🏻‍♀️

They had agreed 6 days. Why is it okay for her husband to then change this to 11 days, without discussion, but not for the OP to disagree with that change and request they stick to their initial agreement?

As for cancelling plans- yes they could be cancelled (anything can be cancelled) but I still don’t want the DC going for 11 days

Can you find a way to get the holiday plans to suit you both?

He wants to visit his parents over the holidays. He will feel better if you and the kids are there. You want to limit the time and to be sure the kids are not at risk.

Could you suggest he goes for 11 days and you and the kids meet him for 5-6? If you cannot do this at all, are the kids old enough to fly by themselves?

Is there any way to do this and do a few fun things as a family while you are there?

I have been in a place where no one feels respected or heard, and thus no one is willing to negotiate. Everyone is frustrated and hurt and there seems little way to resolve it because both parties feel like the other person cares so little about their needs and has no interest in understanding their position. It sounds like you are both there right now.

I've been reflecting on this a bit more. Have you actually told the DC yet? Has he told his parents that he's spending Christmas with them? Is there any chance you could approach your DH and say, "Look, the DC will be devastated when they find out that you're not spending Christmas with us. Is there any chance we could discuss it all again and see if we could come to some kind of a compromise?". Maybe you could cancel the holiday plans you have made so as to enable the 11 day trip to take place? Maybe you could cancel one of the holiday plans and go for 9 days? Maybe you could do the 6/7 day visit this year but commit to a longer trip next Christmas (if you're still together next Christmas)? The current deadlock will really hurt the DC.

The thing is, even if you do split up with your DH, you will still have to negotiate with him going forward. Who gets the DC for Christmas/New Years/Easter/the summer holidays/the DCs' birthdays/Mother's Day/Father's Day etc? If the DC develop medical issues, you will have to discuss this with your DH and perhaps agree on treatments and ensure that he's fully briefed on their treatment/medication so as to ensure continuity on the days/weekends he has the DC. If there are issues at school, (bullying or learning difficulties) you will have to discuss these issues and try to work on a plan together to address these issues. Communication is key - whether you ultimately separate or stay together.

[quote Jisforjuggling]@SenselessUbiquity thank you. Can you suggest any books on the subject?[/quote]
Sorry I can't think of any books in particular - I am deriving my thoughts from stuff I have learned about transactional analysis from therapy, from management training, from observation and from feminism

[quote Jisforjuggling]@PineappleVision it might, but I don’t want my marriage to survive on ultimatums. If he wants to spend Christmas with his parents he needs to know that that sends a very clear msg to DC and myself about where we sit in the pecking order. I’m not playing second fiddle to his mother. He’s been very clear since we met that he never wanted to go back to his home country to live but has thrown the ‘it’s alright for you living close to your family’ line at me numerous times over the past few days. We could live anywhere in the world but for a long list of reasons it wouldn’t be his home country.[/quote]
As a person that chooses to live far away from my family, I suggest you try to view it not being an issue of pecking order or you playing second fiddle to his mother. It's likely not about that or he would never have moved in the first place.

I often do things because it's what I need to do in order to feel okay. It probably seems like it's for them, but it's really to meet my own needs. I grieve the time I have lived away, it crept up on me. They aged so quickly and if I spend any time really thinking about it I can get very upset. I know it is for the best and what was right for me, but that doesn't mean I don't wish life had been different.

Would you be as upset if you learned that he is not trying to make them happy, but instead trying to make himself feel better about living so far away? Surely it's on his mind that they may not have many more Christmases.

@Taytocrisps, thank you for all the suggestions. The kids don’t know, and previously he has left telling them to me. As per prev posts, even if I cancel our plans I work shifts. I only have 4 days in a row off. I’m simply not making a 2 day round trip for 48 hours with his parents (or anyone else). We are booked to go in feb. We have discussed going for 2 weeks in April or the summer. If he’s that desperate to go for Christmas (and he has never previously said he is) then we could look at going next year (although I’ll still be doing lots of travelling for very little time with the ILs).

I would rise above it with a "gosh, we will miss you over Christmas but there's always Zoom" and leave it at that.
7 quality days with his parents, solo.....it's a flounce he will have only once. 😂 And you get to go in Feb anyway, lucky you.

Are you going to be stuck for childcare/ wrap around care if you only have 4 days off?

Surely it's on his mind that they may not have many more Christmases

His GPs lived into their 90s. There is a good chance we have at least 20 left.