How do you talk to other women?

[littlepieces]

I've always found making friendships, or even just conversation, with women really difficult, I feel like there's something I'm just not getting. I much prefer the company of men and find them much easier to talk to, easier to maintain relationships with, and much easier to sort of read I suppose. I also never really know what to say to women? With men I just have a laugh, but women don't really communicate like that. What do you talk about with other women? Anyone else similar? Or have any advice?

Eg. I went for a try out at a sports club recently. Another woman around my age was also there for the first time, so I said hi it's my first time here too, haven't played for a while not sure what to expect etc. She just looked at me like I'd spoken in a foreign language, and said nothing back. I tried again, but just got a brief laugh humouring me. And then later we had to pair up for a warm up and I turned to her to ask if she wanted to pair up and she turned immediately away and asked someone else. I don't look unusual or anything so have absolutely no idea what that was all about, but would say that's pretty typical of my social failings!

@IncompleteSenten

Women don't have a laugh? That's news to me. I'm always pissing about.

Unless you mean flirty 'banter' (I hate that word) and that weird girly shit with its sexual undertones which of course won't be as well received by straight women as it would by straight men. But if that's not the case and it's just normal jokes I promise you women like to laugh just as much as men do.

I would agree massively with this. Some men (not all, but some) will laugh along/join in with ‘having a laugh’ because they won’t their ego stroked or because they think there might be sex in it. Not because they’re just so friendly unlike unfriendly women.

Also, not to be mean, but the type of woman I’ve met who says things like ‘oh I just get along better with men than women’ or ‘I just can’t be doing with the drama with girls’ gives off an instant vibe of thinking they’re better/not like other girls. Which puts me off them.

[quote Apguh]@littlepieces I THINK - because I'm not sure, with females, compliments work well to start with. But be prepared to listen. I think perhaps saying nice hair, or some something else that u like. Nice shoes? That may get a conversation going. Most Females care very much about appearance and want to chat about hair, make up, bags, shoes etc. I'm just guessing here. [/quote]
Of course. Females like to talk about their hair and bags and makeup. Are you basing your understanding of the entire female sex on Betty Draper?

What do males like to talk about? Football and cigars and fixing car engines?

@Nyxly

I genuinely don't get the "men communicate like this and women like that'

No, they don't. Different people communicate in different ways. While there are social differences between men and women, we are also all individuals.

If you never get in with females, or rary get on with females.....chances are the problem is you. I have never met anyone who doesn't get on with a large portion of the population based on one factor (ie their sex) and it being everyone else.

We don’t do make up or clothes or hair on soap operas.

You don't do clothes? At all?

The stereotyping of women and misogyny on this thread should give some insight as to why some of you some get on with women.

I know some people in the States buy the men & women communicate differently & cite that stupid little tome, Women are from Venus, Men are Mars.

I am rather appalled by all the male & female stereotypes.
pints, footie v nails, makeup
Wow, that's such a simplistic & juvenile view.

I have always found men easier to get on with. I find men are more direct and simpler. If they like you, they like you; if they don't, they ignore you. Women are more likely to engage in the social dance of being nice to your face and then sabotaging you, bitching or destroying your reputation behind your back if they don't like you. Note - more likely not always do.

These are generalisations though and I've found men and women who fall into the opposite camp. Most of my female friends also struggle with female friendships in general and we think it's because we find so many women have been socialised to be 'nice' that they've become eg people pleasers who will go out of their way to offer to do things for you that they can't possibly really want to do and take offence if you don't reciprocate. I'm aware of that and it makes me uncomfortable. I have also found tha when women assert boundaries or state needs we are often viewed as 'unkind'. Some women don't like that as they would do anything for you. Some women are more sensitive to reading into a 'look' or feel that if you're a bit down or 'off', they must have done something to upset you.

It doesn't feel authentic and you're often at risk of hurting someone else's feelings.

I like women, of course I do, I have female friends but I find that I find women who engage in 'stereotypically female' behaviours as hard to get on with as men who engage in 'stereotypically male' behaviours.

I prefer people, men and women, who engage with people similarly, regardless of their sex, easier.

Tbh, there are threads on here all the time that are testament to my experiences.

tzarine

I don't know, an awful lot of blokes do talk about cars, football, bands and not a lot else. Many of them say they like socialising and friendships with women because it opens up the conversation a bit more.

Obviously that's just as much socialisation. But it does happen a lot.

I’ve known lots of men who are “bitchy”, sabotaging behind backs etc, it’s just not called that when men do it

The biggest difference between men and women’s friendships I notice is that both men and women are happy to excuse/overlook any shortcomings or poor behaviour from men, but have higher expectations of women

@OnyxOryx So only men are adequate communicators for those with ND?

@RichTeaRichTea

The biggest difference between men and women’s friendships I notice is that both men and women are happy to excuse/overlook any shortcomings or poor behaviour from men, but have higher expectations of women

This is so true.

@RichTeaRichTea

I’ve known lots of men who are “bitchy”, sabotaging behind backs etc, it’s just not called that when men do it

Yes, this is completely true.

If anything I think men are even more rigorous at policing unspoken gender norms among themselves, and subtly ostracising/demeaning other men who are perceived to fall short or not be "normal", than women are.

There's a social cost to certain behaviours in many male social groups that doesn't need to be said out loud. It's not necessarily logical - crying when your football team loses, acceptable; crying because you think you've failed in your career, not acceptable. Being a sex pest to women, seen as normal; gay experimentation seen as deviant. Etc.

Men enforcing toxic masculinity on other men is as bitchy, gossipy, sly and two-faced as any female social group I've been in. They just call it shit like "banter".

And of course women get the sharp end of it all too.

@RichTeaRichTea

The biggest difference between men and women’s friendships I notice is that both men and women are happy to excuse/overlook any shortcomings or poor behaviour from men, but have higher expectations of women

This is so true.

Those studies above are more likely to be a result of this, more than anything else

What do you talk about with other women

Well stopping the assumption that women are a homogenous hive mind might be a good start.

Also nobody owes you a conversation. One person not accepting an invitation to engage whilst they are busy filling in forms is not all of womanhood rejecting you personally. Its a woman who is filling in a form and doesn't feel inclined to converse at that point.

Reading this thread really demonstrates why the current ideology based on regressive gender stereotypes has taken such a hold.

This thread has been a bizarre read. If you can't get along with an entire gender, the problem is your ability to socialise more than any gendered differences.

OP, given your relationship with your mother, you have clearly internalised the narrative that women are untrustworthy and complex - and that will be obvious in the energy you give off to other women. I once met a woman who complained she couldn't get on with other girls, but that's because her entire body language changed when approaching/being approached by women. She'd have a defensive posture, the smile wasn't natural and her eyes would get very cold. She would also struggle to hold eye contact with women. Probably imperceptible to her, but very obvious to others. I think it's because she inherently viewed all women as competition and couldn't see them with the same lighthearted vibe she viewed men.

So if you view women through this very regressive stereotypical view - it will be obvious in how you relate to them. Make more of an effort to listen to, respect and learn from women rather than see them as this odd species you have nothing in common with. There are BILLIONS of women out there, use a bit of logic and rationality, and assume there's going to be at least a few who share your interests.

@littlepieces

Also didn't just approach the woman at the sports club out of the blue either, she was signing the new starter forms at the same time as me at the reception, so I thought I'd make conversation. In future I will just not say a word to anyone unless spoken to I guess?

Keep on speaking to people. When you speak to people and they blank you then they're not going to be worth knowing.

[quote ChargingBuck]@CheeseMmmm I've really enjoyed your posts here :)

The PP who were discussing women who claim "I am too beautiful for other women to like" might enjoy the absolute belter that Katie Hopkins boasted that other women disliked her out of jealousy for her good looks.
The ham-faced twat![/quote]
Proper laughed at that.

Also "BOOM bring out the big guns".

Have read most of thread but not all of it.
I think people have been harsh here.

OP, I think you sound lovely and IMO the woman at the club was very rude. If I was new to a club and someone had been chatty to me like that, I would have been happy to make a new friend. Yes, I'm aware to some that may sound strange! I certainly don't think you were odd or overfriendly.
I feel the same way you do about chatting to other women, and I know my own mum did too. She used to say 'It seems like there's women, men and then there's me' and I know exactly what she meant!
I'm a bit shy/awkward and not particularly girly. I've been left out of all girls friendship groups at various time in my life.
I remember when I first met my SILs, they were creasing themselves and howling about some injoke I didn't understand and I find them cliquey and still do. I don't like cliques.
I think men can be better friends and less judgmental. That's just my opinion. I've met some lovely women too recently. Everyone is different.
Be yourself, you sound great as you are. There are some great women, great men, and dickheads of both genders. If people don't like you as you are, that's their problem.

One study had 500,000 respondents.

*survey. By MSN.

Not the same thing as a scientifically conducted, peer reviewed, rigorous study that considers whether the respondents reflect the population as a whole or the impact of how questions are asked, etc.

I think men can be better friends and less judgmental. That's just my opinion.

Sure it must be wonderful to be the superior sex in every single way. Wish I knew what that felt like.

Have men always been better friends than women? Just curious as in quite recent history they didn’t even let us in their workplaces/sports clubs/pubs. Is that because we aren’t good friends?

[quote Didimum]@OnyxOryx So only men are adequate communicators for those with ND?[/quote]
How the fuck did you get that from my post?!

The OP is a woman. Someone pointed out that the OP was no different to other women and that should mean she has no problems talking to/being understood by them. I pointed out that that isn't actually true. The OP having ND is different to other women (who are mainly NT because most people are).

This whole thread from the OPs perspective (and leaving aside the people who sidetracked it with conversation about men at work) was about her, a woman, communicating with other women. Men didn't feature in my post at all, because of this.

The OP having ND is different to other women (who are mainly NT because most people are).

But then the OP is also different to men, unless you believe that men naturally communicate with people who are ND better?

If the op can communicate with men better than women because she is ND, why would that be?

Dark phoenix . Go back and read my post. It doesn't mention men or women. It talks about people in general. The person I replied to mentions women. The sex of the person is irrelevant IMO.

I agree with a PP who says the reason some women find its sometimes easier to talk to men than women is because men are more likely to go along with anything a little odd, a bit full on, or banter etc (and of course outright flirting) because in the back of their mind it's a women speaking and the man is probably straight (as the majority of people are) therefore they might get sex as a end result to the interaction/friendship. Nothing mysterious or to do with supposedly better/different communication skills in men. They're just, on some level, hoping for sex.

And before I get jumped on for saying that, No I don't think that is the only reason any man talks to any women ever. But if a woman has poor social skills, who's more likely to want to chat with her:

A) the person who envisages a clingy new BFF, which due to their own social conditioning they'd struggle to shake off (because women are socialised to #BeKind and people-please, putting their own needs last)

or

B) the person who thinks there's an outside chance it might one day lead to sex, and due to their own social conditioning (because men are socialised to put their own needs and wants top of their agenda) would have no problems snubbing the woman at a later date if sex didn't happen/they tired of her chatter?

another woman around my age was also there for the first time, so I said hi it's my first time here too, haven't played for a while not sure what to expect etc. She just looked at me like I'd spoken in a foreign language, and said nothing back. I tried again, but just got a brief laugh humouring me

This was a perfectly normal opening conversation from you OP. She may just have not known what to say in reply. I can be like that if someone speaks to me unexpectedly, so I just laugh as I have brain freeze. If you have asked a specific question about something at the club she may have found it easier to reply.

Tbh, I would have found any stranger approaching me in such a full on way pretty intimidating. I don't think that is because I'm a woman It wasn't 'full on'! It was opening chit chat from a newbie!

Patriarchal power structures have a vested interest in sowing mistrust among women where their collective and collaborative organisation may prove threatening to the status quo. The exception is childcare etc (hence it being undervalued). Society is full of the 'bitchy other women' trope.

I used to believe it too. Then I had a series of experiences which led me to opening the door to the richness of female friendships.

These days I have a mixture of male and female friends. They're broadly similar (although every friendship brings something unique), but there is an extra connection with my female friends based on our shared biology.

I talk to men and women the same I think. I've found most men to be friendlier to me and some women more frosty. At the risk of sounding big headed I've made money from my looks in the past so I'm alright looking and probably stand out a bit. And some other women have taken issue with this. It was interesting when I gained a few stone after my kids that women had more time for me.

Were you an escort? Some of them make serious £££.

I'm slim and fairly attractive and hit the gym a lot. Would say I've got a respectable arse lol. Defo found that some women are funny about it. The three girls in the traffic office at my last job were all frosty with me and were all pretty big. I bought them some donuts one day because I knew they'd be secretly seething but have to be polite as they weren't 100% sure if I was taking the piss. 😂