Men, what is WRONG with you??!

[Aliceclara]

My God! The thing that strikes me when I read a lot of these posts on Mumsnet is have men lost their way? Why are so many men incapable of behaving like decent, kind, caring, responsible human beings? What makes some of them entitled, arrogant, immature twats? Some of this must come down to upbringing. I have two grown sons and they would never behave this way! And if it's down to upbringing, is the responsibility for this down to inadequate parenting, inadequate mothers? I don't know the answer, but I think it's time the decent men made a stand against this. Too much misogyny, too much violence against women, not enough equality. What the hell is happening to society??!

If it makes you feel better pretending it's a Diaries of a Call Girl lifestyle then good for you but don't try and argue here that you would happily choose if for you or any other woman in your life.

Even Dr Magnanti only did it to fund her lifestyle and studies until she could do something else.

But @Wroxie as parents, as mothers, we DO have a responsibility to teach our children how to be good people. It's no good throwing our collective hands up and saying 'I'm sick of women being blamed for men's bad behaviour' All parents, men and women, have this responsibility. When we bring a child into the world we have to grow up and realise the enormity of our influence. As I see it, the problem
Is people don't WANT to accept this. When their child grows up a rude arrogant shallow and entitled individual it's always somebody else's fault.

@thelegohooverer

You talk about misogyny but still manage to blame women (mothers) for men’s shortcomings.

I thought that too, and what about their dad's!

@MatildaIThink you’ll be clocked don’t worry but someone had to speak out against your misogyny
1 million men hun lol
I guess that will be close to the millionS of women who do cosmetic procedures each day

You havnt proven me or anyone else wrong and it’s clear your an absolute women hater
Goodbye :)

as parents, as mothers, we DO have a responsibility to teach our children how to be good people.

Mothers can only do so much. You can preach equality to your children as much as you like but you're on a hiding to nothing if it is not modelled in the home.

Most men perpetuate inequality in their relationships. It can be as little a thing as refusing to help make their DC's packed lunches or not splitting sick days with their working partners, but the majority of men are guilty of this in one way or another.

@boobot1

No. You are completely misunderstanding and simplifying what I am saying. I'm talking about the very specific relationship between mothers and sons. The early interactions between male and female and what is acceptable. I'm not discounting a father's influence at all. My original post was asking people where they think we are going wrong, and why a growing number of men seem to think it's ok to treat women as less than themselves. Why do you think some men grow up with the idea they can behave however they like with their partner? Why do some men treat everyone well but when they get home it's the gradual eroding of kindness and equality in the relationship? Where do you think this behaviour comes from? I'm genuinely interested to hear your reply.

@Aliceclara

But *@Wroxie* as parents, as mothers, we DO have a responsibility to teach our children how to be good people. It's no good throwing our collective hands up and saying 'I'm sick of women being blamed for men's bad behaviour' All parents, men and women, have this responsibility. When we bring a child into the world we have to grow up and realise the enormity of our influence. As I see it, the problem Is people don't WANT to accept this. When their child grows up a rude arrogant shallow and entitled individual it's always somebody else's fault.

I suppose most of us think that there's already enough criticism of women for being bad mothers but not much for crap fathers. You yourself mentioned mothers specifically in your OP.

[quote Kittenlittlen]@MatildaIThink you’ll be clocked don’t worry but someone had to speak out against your misogyny
1 million men hun lol
I guess that will be close to the millionS of women who do cosmetic procedures each day

You havnt proven me or anyone else wrong and it’s clear your an absolute women hater
Goodbye :)[/quote]
Ah, so now you lost that one again you have changed from "surgery" to "procedures", from something precise, to something so loosely defined as to be useless.

You then accuse me of misogyny on the basis that I presented you with facts that proved you wrong, and on the basis of me not agreeing that all/most men are bad.

I do not hate women, I love being a woman, I love my sisters, mother, friends etc. but I also recognise that some women are far from perfect, just as there are some men who are far from perfect.

And if it's down to upbringing, is the responsibility for this down to inadequate parenting, inadequate mothers?

You say inadequate parenting but then specify inadequate 'mothers'. Implying women are more responsible for men's behaviour than men. I still can't see anything you've written that makes that less of a misogynist viewpoint than it originally came across as.

Females do not exist to modify the behaviour of males. Females are not more responsible than males for modifying the behaviour of males, whether those males are boys or adult men.

You singled out mothers rather than finishing that sentence with 'inadequate parenting' and it's fair for people to label that as misogynist. Because it is.

MatildaIThink as you will undoubtedly know the group most likely to suffer violence on the streets at night are young men. Why do you think that might be? Who do you think is responsible for that violence? Do you think it's about 50/50 men to women as perpetrators?

I do believe that as mothers we have an enormous influence, and this is what I'm tackling here. Start another thread on how fathers can influence their sons if you like. But that's obvious stuff. Treat women well and with respect - it's not rocket science. If we,as women, accept poor treatment by our partners we are teaching our children that that's what they too should accept (daughters) or emulate (sons). We can't change the behaviour of grown men, but we can change the behaviour of our own children by demonstrating what we will accept, and how we treat others. It is OUR responsibility to ourselves to have boundaries and not let anyone, regardless of gender, trample all over them. It's the same for fathers of course. If a father is being belittled or disrespected by his partner he has an equal responsibility to make a stand and show his children how a man should expect to be treated by his partner. This isn't such a big issue though, is it? And before all the derailers pile on to talk about male domestic abuse - yes, I KNOW IT EXISTS. But this thread isn't about that issue. Start a new thread if that's what you wish to debate.

@NashvilleQueen

MatildaIThink as you will undoubtedly know the group most likely to suffer violence on the streets at night are young men. Why do you think that might be? Who do you think is responsible for that violence? Do you think it's about 50/50 men to women as perpetrators?

MatildaIThink as you will undoubtedly know the group most likely to suffer violence on the streets at night are young men. Yes, I am aware of that. Why do you think that might be? Opportunity mostly, with far more men on the streets. Who do you think is responsible for that violence? Everyone from violent sociopaths, to drunk people leaving bars, to drug dealers to other homeless people. Usually male, usually between 25 and 45. Do you think it's about 50/50 men to women as perpetrators? No, I would suspect, although do not know, and cannot find figures, that would would be at a minimum 90/10 in favour of men being the perpetrators and could easily range up to greater than 99% of perpetrators being male.

@thelegohooverer

You talk about misogyny but still manage to blame women (mothers) for men’s shortcomings.

So are you saying there is no link be misogyny and upbringing? Because I think there totally is.

I have two sons and the misogynist, homophobic crap that spilled out if a lot of mothers mouths even aimed at quite tiny boys used to really horrify me.

You say this now:

I do believe that as mothers we have an enormous influence, and this is what I'm tackling here. Start another thread on how fathers can influence their sons if you like.

But in fairness, your opening post did't say it was a discussion about mothers' influence on men. You asked what factors are at play, not how mothers can change things. You simply mentioned mothers not fathers in your list of possible influences. In fact you said in your first post:

I don't know the answer, but I think it's time the decent men made a stand against this.

So it's very strange to now say "Start another thread on how fathers can influence their sons if you like."

You seem keen not to acknowledge your unconscious bias towards women being more accountable than men when it comes to parenting. When actually you could have acknowledged it and had an interesting discussion about whether that bias itself is an issue that needs addressing.

Instead you're now saying people can't veer off topic and should start their own threads... when you've changed what you say your own thread topic is about!

lottiegarbanzo & Kittenlittlen

I am talking about how society views these men not the definition of the words.

That you don't believe this is part of the problem.

Unless society changes how it views men, the role of men, how men are allowed to express themselves nothing will change.

@Ionlydomassiveones

'Women do need to be brought into this - they need to ask themselves if they’ve married the right man, if they take on too much of the domestics and if their husband is a good role model. If not they need to challenge this.'

Thank you for understanding what I'm trying to say.

Oh, out you come straw lottie. You can handle this one. (You whose beliefs Fripp knows all about after reading one specific comment from me). Just sit there nicely and smile at Fripp.

OP, I think if you want to talk about mothers only, you need to start a new thread. That's not what your title or OP is about.

lottiegarbanzo

I will take your last response as you don't actually have a valid response.

But you do you.

@FrippEnos

lottiegarbanzo & Kittenlittlen

I am talking about how society views these men not the definition of the words.

That you don't believe this is part of the problem.

Unless society changes how it views men, the role of men, how men are allowed to express themselves nothing will change.

The onus is on women to change and not men So that men can be decent human beings ? Nope

Kittenlittlen

The onus should be on everybody to not accept poor behaviour.

Take it how you like Fripp.

If there is one thing I cannot abide and will not entertain, it is being told what I think.

Feel free to carry on arguing with yourself, of course. I really do have better things to do.

@FrippEnos

Kittenlittlen

The onus should be on everybody to not accept poor behaviour.

And how about those committing the bad behaviour ? Like the violence , the sneaking around and using sexy service behind partners backs , the sexual harassment etc

The onus is on those who are not doing the behaviours not to accept them ?

How about the onus on those doing them . What is their responsibility in it ?