Men, what is WRONG with you??!

[Aliceclara]

My God! The thing that strikes me when I read a lot of these posts on Mumsnet is have men lost their way? Why are so many men incapable of behaving like decent, kind, caring, responsible human beings? What makes some of them entitled, arrogant, immature twats? Some of this must come down to upbringing. I have two grown sons and they would never behave this way! And if it's down to upbringing, is the responsibility for this down to inadequate parenting, inadequate mothers? I don't know the answer, but I think it's time the decent men made a stand against this. Too much misogyny, too much violence against women, not enough equality. What the hell is happening to society??!

lottiegarbanzo

I haven't told you what you think, I have said what certain areas of society think.

@Aliceclara
listening to the ways some of my son's peers talk about and treat women

How do you think their mothers would describe their sons? They probably say their sons are good and treat women with respect too.

@FrippEnos

lottiegarbanzo

I haven't told you what you think, I have said what certain areas of society think.

Oh you must mean like those ‘certain areas of society ‘ that hold mysogynistic view and behave badly . I know….. it’s a massive issue Perhaps if they change their views women won’t be attacked , harassed , be carrying the lions share of unpaid work , be paid less etc etc

Kittenlittlen

Of course the ultimate responsibility of those doing these behaviours is with the people doing them.

But they won't stop doing them unless society as a whole makes it clear that the behaviours are unacceptable.

[quote RantyAunty]@Aliceclara
listening to the ways some of my son's peers talk about and treat women

How do you think their mothers would describe their sons? They probably say their sons are good and treat women with respect too.[/quote]
No, I've had conversations with friend 's and colleagues who say their sons ignore them, do what they want, shout and swear at them. Behaviour I would never tolerate.

Here's what I'm talking about. When I started this post I was ill I bed with a flu'ey type illness. Feel shocking. I live with my youngest son (17). Of my two sons, he's been the hardest work. We've had arguments, he's fallen out with me when I've said he can't do something, he has shouted at me at times (never sworn), he has been so angry with me on occasions! But he has always respected what I say, even if he hates me for it at the time.
We have a brilliant relationship now, still cross swords occasionally. But anyway, I'm ill. He's cleared up the kitchen without being asked, brought me countless cups of tea, tried to cheer me up. He's rooted around to find paracetamol for me and offered to cook tea. I know that in the future, he will do this for his partner. It's been hard won to raise this young man as someone who can see past his own feelings to consider others.
I'm sure I'll get slated for saying this, I'm not being smug. I'm saying I've shed tears bringing up my sons on occasions. But we've got there together.

@Blackopal

Think your OP is very interesting.

You are naming the problem (male behaviour) and are angry at the problem. You move onto cause and immediately name mother's.

Assuming your post is sincere you have neatly shown unconscious bias that this behaviour must come back to a failing by a female.

This may be because you don't expect alot from men and therefore don't hold them responsible. Now expand that attitude to society and you can see why we have problems holding men truly responsible for violence, entitlement and mistreatment.

Completely agree. Your post is incredibly sexist and no wonder we have problems with men on society when you seem to blame 'mothers' for it.

@Aliceclara

Here's what I'm talking about. When I started this post I was ill I bed with a flu'ey type illness. Feel shocking. I live with my youngest son (17). Of my two sons, he's been the hardest work. We've had arguments, he's fallen out with me when I've said he can't do something, he has shouted at me at times (never sworn), he has been so angry with me on occasions! But he has always respected what I say, even if he hates me for it at the time. We have a brilliant relationship now, still cross swords occasionally. But anyway, I'm ill. He's cleared up the kitchen without being asked, brought me countless cups of tea, tried to cheer me up. He's rooted around to find paracetamol for me and offered to cook tea. I know that in the future, he will do this for his partner. It's been hard won to raise this young man as someone who can see past his own feelings to consider others. I'm sure I'll get slated for saying this, I'm not being smug. I'm saying I've shed tears bringing up my sons on occasions. But we've got there together.

That's great and as it should be.

In families with two parents present, the mum is not more responsible for instilling any of those values in their children than the dad is.

That's why people took issue with you specifically mentioning parenting in general then only mentioning mothers but not fathers immediately afterwards.

In families with two parents present, the mum is not more responsible for instilling any of those values in their children than the dad is.

Sorry I should have said here - in families with two parents present, if one is male and one is female the mum is not more responsible for instilling any of those values in their children than the dad is.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

In families with two parents present, the mum is not more responsible for instilling any of those values in their children than the dad is.

Sorry I should have said here - in families with two parents present, if one is male and one is female the mum is not more responsible for instilling any of those values in their children than the dad is.

I agree. But the mother is responsible for maintaining her boundaries with her partner.

So close! Yet still a 'but'...

How about 'But the father is responsible for respecting the boundaries with his partner.'

You keep adding extra responsibility to women's load when it comes to regulating men.

In doing so, you're part of the problem.

What no one has mentioned here is that sometimes women get tired of fighting. It becomes easier just to do it all. Men can be extraordinarily resistant to doing their share... prevarication, sulking, "I'll do it later", strategic incompetence....

It is the height of sexism to blame a woman who is already trying to do it all - work, school runs, childcare, housework, shopping, mental load stuff - for lacking the reserves of energy necessary to stand up effectively to their partner and let them know that this behaviour will not be tolerated. And then to act on it if they don't change.

And it's useful to remember that pregnancy/childbirth is the point at which there is often a shift for the worse in men's behaviour. That's right, the point at which women are most physically and economically vulnerable and leaving is hardest. And how do you then shape your son's attitudes towards women in an environment when you and your needs are consistently put last, behind everyone else's?

@youvegottenminuteslynn
If we give the responsibility for overstepping our boundaries to someone else we hand over our power. We can't change the behaviour and thoughts of another. We can only say what our boundaries are, and the act accordingly. If someone doesn't respect them, in the case of a partner, we should think carefully about staying. Once one boundary has been ignored, inevitably another will follow. And our children learn from this.

[quote Aliceclara]@youvegottenminuteslynn
If we give the responsibility for overstepping our boundaries to someone else we hand over our power. We can't change the behaviour and thoughts of another. We can only say what our boundaries are, and the act accordingly. If someone doesn't respect them, in the case of a partner, we should think carefully about staying. Once one boundary has been ignored, inevitably another will follow. And our children learn from this.[/quote]
You're misinterpreting. I'm saying mums and dads are EQUALLY responsible. A man is AS responsible for respecting a woman's boundaries as a woman is for maintaining her boundaries. You write as if men are by default less able to control themselves than women are. That is a narrative that only serves to maintain the status quo - that women are more responsible than men when it comes to policing behaviour. Your unconscious bias in the first post was a good example of that. You specified inadequate mothers and not fathers rather than asking what both parents can do, even if they do different things in different ways. By raising 'inadequate mothers' as a concept, you implied that fathers are less accountable and responsible for their children developing into well adjusted adults. Mothers should not be the default parents and implying they are, whether consciously or not, is part of the problem.

If someone doesn't respect them, in the case of a partner, we should think carefully about staying. Once one boundary has been ignored, inevitably another will follow. And our children learn from this.

Nobody would disagree with this. Nobody has disagreed with the fact women (and men) shouldn't stay in unhealthy relationships or tolerate abuse. That isn't what people have taken issue with. They've taken issue with you repeatedly implying women are more responsible or accountable for the behaviour of their children or partner than men are.

You can backtrack or perhaps it's just your style of writing that isn't getting your point across, but that's how it sounds to people and that's why they've taken issue with it.

Sorry OP but you’re coming off as unbearably smug.

Has it ever occurred to you that you were lucky with your kids or is it all down to your marvellous parenting?

What no one has mentioned here is that sometimes women get tired of fighting. It becomes easier just to do it all. Men can be extraordinarily resistant to doing their share... prevarication, sulking, "I'll do it later", strategic incompetence....

It is the height of sexism to blame a woman who is already trying to do it all - work, school runs, childcare, housework, shopping, mental load stuff - for lacking the reserves of energy necessary to stand up effectively to their partner and let them know that this behaviour will not be tolerated. And then to act on it if they don't change.

Thank you @Goldbar for saying this.

@Lessthanaballpark

No, in answer to your question, I don't think I was blessed with perfect offspring.

I can't understand why people want to attack me personally. I'm saying I've found parenting bloody hard at times. But I've always been determined to raise my children with my own values of kindness, compassion and respect. What's smug about that?

Do you not think, OP, that the bias you displayed against women in your OP, which you are refusing to acknowledge and attempting to redefine to a load of women now it's been called out, might itself be an indication of the problem? That women are being blamed, then the bias against them is denied, then they are blamed again for apparently being too dim or unreasonable to understand what was initially said?

@Aliceclara

I can't understand why people want to attack me personally. I'm saying I've found parenting bloody hard at times. But I've always been determined to raise my children with my own values of kindness, compassion and respect. What's smug about that?

It's not an attack, it's people trying to explain how the (presumably unconscious) bias in your opening post is indicative of the issue at hand and them getting frustrated that you don't seem willing to acknowledge and own that. It could have been a really interesting discussion to say shit, even I mentioned women as potentially being to blame more than men by saying mothers but not fathers... but you've gone on the defensive instead.

You're right, I shouldn't have let myself be chased down the rabbit hole of making it personal. Lesson learned.

@MatildaIThink -Sorry but innocent still gobsmacked at your belief that most men look at maybe one or two clips a year. You know I’m married to a guy who would count himself as a feminist, intelligent, likes kids and animals, good job and in his 50s. We had a really frank discussion one night where he said he watches it very occasionally— he didn’t know that I know he watches it 5 or 6 times a week the minute I’m out the door— that’s the kind of shit we are dealing with here and I won’t be the only one. Other women are just ‘unaware’ and not as techie as me or if they are aware turn a blind eye or in some cases really don’t have an issue. I think it has killed romance for many if I am honest.

There's not much women can do about mysoginistic men. Men need to call it out.
Men need to stop admiring or chuckling over the bloke down the pub who's become self-employed so he doesn't have to pay so much to his ex (it's NOT for his ex, it's for his KIDS).
Men need to call out other men who are disrespectful towards women.
Men need to stop supporting each other by commission and by omission in their bad treatment of women and children.
Men need to grow up, and expect each other to grow up.

So much of the behaviour is tacitly approved by other men. Why would a shit bloke change his ways if he can just go off to the pub, to work, or wherever and know no one's going to call him out? Why isn't he shunned and find himself friendless when he's unfaithful, careless, violent?

Decent men need to act. They're the ones who'll be paid attention to.