Men, what is WRONG with you??!

[Aliceclara]

My God! The thing that strikes me when I read a lot of these posts on Mumsnet is have men lost their way? Why are so many men incapable of behaving like decent, kind, caring, responsible human beings? What makes some of them entitled, arrogant, immature twats? Some of this must come down to upbringing. I have two grown sons and they would never behave this way! And if it's down to upbringing, is the responsibility for this down to inadequate parenting, inadequate mothers? I don't know the answer, but I think it's time the decent men made a stand against this. Too much misogyny, too much violence against women, not enough equality. What the hell is happening to society??!

[quote Kittenlittlen]@MatildaIThink

‘ You seem to have missed the broader point that it's morally reprehensible to use a man in the way I outlined.’

Why do you think a woman who has sacrificed her body , sometimes her health , her career to give a man children is USING him ??

Many would argue he used her to have children whilst he could maintain the freedom to get out each day and work , have children he knows she will mostly care for and sex

Personally I don’t see anyone is using anyone if two people have a child they are both responsible
Are you referring to unwanted pregnancy ? Why are women responsible for contraception ? . How does a man get tricked into not wearing a condom ???
Doesn’t matter what is said about contraception he needs to be responsible for protecting his own Willy and parenting and not put the responsibility on her

Just wondering why you think a woman who’s been home raising kids and then leaves is ‘ using ‘ the man ?[/quote]
This post was not by me, learn to read.

@Lessthanaballpark

We deal with it. We make clear it isn't acceptable and that there are consequences. And yes, for me that would mean taking away privileges like phones, or grounding them, even as teenagers. But again, if we raise our sons from a young age with high expectations of respect towards us, and if we help them to manage and understand their difficult feelings (of anger for instance) then when they get to the teenage/young adult stage THOSE VALUES SHOULD ALREADY BE THERE. This is what being a parent is all about, surely? Our role is to raise good people. It's that simple, but as I said in an earlier post, being a parent is difficult. It's hard sometimes to make a stance with your children. It's hard to stick to the consequences you've laid out. It's hard to feel you've upset your child by staying firm. It's hard to be a parent instead of a friend. But hopefully it pays off and you've raised someone who can be a good partner, a great parent, a loving son or daughter. Someone who understands that we should be kind to others. If we could raise a generation of men, and women, like this, we could change society.

My son, who is in his 30s recently left his job and on the phone one night he said that one of the reasons was the comments his manager made about women was unacceptable. He did not make a stand as he needed his job, he quietly looked for another and left. He was in the Army and fought in Afghanistan so is not stranger to men's comments. I was so very proud of him and his attitude. So yes good men do exist.

Of course you're right about the hard work of bringing up children OP. But I do think you overestimate the power of mothers as authority figures and underestimate the influence of observation by DCs, of the way the men in their world treat women.

Actions are far more powerful than words.

Some of the replies on here are frankly terrifying . Stop making excuses for men. Stop enabling them to never do better.

I think if anything that comments from people like @MatildaIThink and @saraclara and their nonsense arguments the fact that they couldn’t provide not one but of data or support for says it all really
There are people like that out that and those people would be no doubt raising their children with those same horrible attitudes but women are starting to stand up and refuse to be silent and are teaching their children differently

I think in part yes inadequate parenting. Lots of children grow up on homes where they see abusive relationships as the norm. And rhey then replicate it in their own relationships.

I've been on this site for about 15 years. Things I have seen women post about repeatedly are:

• men using lap dancers/only fans/porn/sex workers
• men inexplicably staying out all night and turning their phones off. Suddenly appearing at 5am with a hangover and checking out of family life for the remainder of the weekend. No apologies given.
• men spending their entire weekends engaged in a hobby that excludes their partner and children.

I don't know a single woman who would behave in this way. Not one.

@Kittenlittlen

Ok so I’ve asked you several questions which you seem unwilling or unable to reply to 1 to provide stats about few men being violent 2 how you can possibly say body pressure is as bad with all the porn and sexist culture of women’s bodies . ( yo) do realise women make up the vast majority of anorexia patients ) 3 how many married men are using sex service 4 why you think a woman sacrificing herbody and her career very often and her energy and time to have a mans child is USING a man

And now after your last post I’ll ask this . You say why wouldn’t men have sympathy for some of the red pill stuff ‘
Wtaf
Ummm maybe because of all the reasons that have been written all over this post !
Yes men’s suicide rate is higher , sadly ken tend not to seek help !
Women’s depression rates are higher
Rates of eating disorders are higher in women
Women make up the majority of the worlds poor
Women own a tiny minority of the worlds wealth
Women make up the majority of sexual abuse victims

Yet here yoh are asking why wouldn’t men have sympathy for that rubbish . Wow just wow

I’ll ask again . How much education or knowledge do you have of women’s actual suffering poverty abuse against women ?

You asked me several questions and expected an instant reply, that does not mean that someone is "unwilling or unable" to reply, it just means that the world does not exist to service your demands.

1 to provide stats about few men being violent
The UK adult male population is around 27 million, there were 1.2 million domestic related incidents (specific legal term) 759k domestic violence related crimes (though the conviction rate was far lower) in the year ending Mar 2020 (the last year the data has been published). Those DV figures include all DV, so DV against women by women, against men by men and against men by women. 84% of DV incidents where police attended were to individuals with who the police had previously attended. 68% of DV incidents involved individuals with whom the police had spoken to five or more times in the last twelve months.

www.statista.com/statistics/281174/uk-population-by-age/
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/domesticabuseandthecriminaljusticesystemenglandandwales/november2020

2 how you can possibly say body pressure is as bad with all the porn and sexist
Because that is the reality for men now, equally bad. Men must be tall, must be athletic, have six packs, large penises, etc. The pressures are just as unrealistic on men as they are on women. Porn is not a body pressure issue, it is a huge issue in relation to the distortion of what "normal" sex is, which is nothing like porn, and that has other issues for both men and women, but it is not a body issue.

3 how many married men are using sex service
I have no idea why this is directed at me, or why it is relevant. It depends how you define "sex services", around 12% of men have used prostitutes, 9% in any one year. Around 70% of adult men view porn in any one year, around 2% of that is paid (eg. OnlyFans, paid sites etc. free porn is so prevalent there is very little point/need to pay), how often and the distribution of that viewing is something that there are not solid figures for.

4 why you think a woman sacrificing herbody and her career very often and her energy and time to have a mans child is USING a man
This is you again falsely attributing posts to me, I did not say that.

And now after your last post I’ll ask this . You say why wouldn’t men have sympathy for some of the red pill stuff ‘
Wtaf
Er, no that was a different poster, again, learn to read.

@lottiegarbanzo

Overestimate the influence we as mothers have on our sons? Do you really think so? I think our influence as the first women in our son's lives is inestimable. We teach them how to treat women. The buck stops with us.

@Kittenlittlen

I think if anything that comments from people like *@MatildaIThink and @saraclara* and their nonsense arguments the fact that they couldn’t provide not one but of data or support for says it all really There are people like that out that and those people would be no doubt raising their children with those same horrible attitudes but women are starting to stand up and refuse to be silent and are teaching their children differently

You seem to be the one who has issues with facts. You attribute posts by one poster to other, attack posters for not responding immediately to you posts, attack posters for not responding immediately to posts with information about posts they did not even make. You are also not presenting a rational argument for anything, you just scream "emotions" and expect us to take that as gospel.

You are not providing any data to support any of your accusations. Where is your data to support that "most" men commit DV?

Most men are decent, kind, caring, balanced human beings. Yes there is a minority who are truly awful and a larger minority who are bad, but have some redeeming features, but that is the same with women, as you are doing your very best to demonstrate on here.

@NashvilleQueen

I've been on this site for about 15 years. Things I have seen women post about repeatedly are:

• men using lap dancers/only fans/porn/sex workers
• men inexplicably staying out all night and turning their phones off. Suddenly appearing at 5am with a hangover and checking out of family life for the remainder of the weekend. No apologies given.
• men spending their entire weekends engaged in a hobby that excludes their partner and children.

I don't know a single woman who would behave in this way. Not one.

Do you know any men who would behave like that in real life?

Whilst I have read about that on here none of my male family members, nor friends, nor the male partners/husbands of friends behave like that.

@NashvilleQueen

'Some of the replies on here are frankly terrifying . Stop making excuses for men. Stop enabling them to never do better.'

Exactly. We should expect more. From our sons. From men in general.

Women attempt suicide way more than men (so suffer more with depression) but the methods men use are more successful

Women suffer more according to stats for those with diagnosed depression. But then men are less likely to seek help for mental health issues. If you are going to interpret statistics in a nuanced way in some areas (eg suicide stats), you should probably do it in all areas.

@MatildaIThink

The REPORTED advice incident are a fraction of what is occurring . It’s well known that most dv is NOT reported

Don’t tell women that the representation of women in porn , Instagram and other media is not a body image issue . Biggest gaslight ever
Nice try

Or maybe the fathers haven’t adequately raised their sons to be good husbands and fathers?

Remember, how boys see their fathers treat their mothers, says everything about the way they will treat their own wives. If they see a loving, supportive, emotional father, they will do just that.

We need to look at how WE, mothers and fathers and carers, bring up all our children together. I wonder how much is an increase in incidents and how much is reporting what was always going on. I don't know. I know I'm in the middle of a nasty situation and very little seems to have changed really from previous generations in terms of domestic violence levels.

Yes. Other things I have seen repeated endlessly on this site are:

• A widespread and for many people, unquestioned assumption that mothers are the default parent 24/7.

Thus, fathers can come and go as they please, whereas mothers have to arrange childcare if they want to go anywhere at all without DCs. Often with the resident father but sometimes he won't do it, so they turn first to female relatives.

• A widespread and for many people, unquestioned assumption that SAHMs are the default housekeeper, cook, cleaner and pot-washer 24/7.

I've never understood that. In my world you agree specialist roles which cover the working + commuting week, then at evenings and weekends you share the housework and parenting.

• A widespread and often unrecognised, never mind questioned, switch that flicks in many, many men's heads when their wife or girlfriend becomes the mother of their child, such that they suddenly regard her as 'mother to the household', including them. Even men who seemed to accept equality without question when dating and in the early years of marriage, often do this.

Do you know any men who would behave like that in real life?

Honestly loads. Both the men I have worked with and the partners (ex and current) of friends. My ex would put fishing, climbing or whatever else had recently taken his fancy before anyone or anything else.

Men who send porn clips to each other on what's app groups. Men who talk about women in crude and sexist terms.

In the course of my job I see every single day ways in which men treat women badly and it is a massive problem for society.

This whataboutery bullshit is verging on All Lives Matter.

And no I didn’t say most men commit violence I said most men behave badly in some way or another . Like MANY have pointed out it’s a sliding scale from disrespect , to sex site use behind their partners back or sex worker to violence …
So many forms of mysogyny .
Your stats on the HUGE number of men using those sites speaks volumes … especially considering that several have been caught with images of minors . Do men care . NOPE
Everything you’ve said just highlights exactly how so many men are behaving so disgustingly

[quote Lessthanaballpark]75% of suicides are male. If we live in such a male dominated / privileged society how can that statistic be so.

I’m not diminishing male suicide but I feel any debate has to be based on the truth.

Women attempt suicide way more than men (so suffer more with depression) but the methods men use are more successful.

www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508[/quote]
It's still there though isn't it. The 75%.

I dated someone a couple of years ago. She attempted suicide but thankfully had the sense to tell her brother who saved her by getting her to hospital after an OD.

I don't claim to understand the subject in detail but suspect that men don't have that person in many cases. What is an attempted suicide, I would assume a cry for help.

[quote Kittenlittlen]@MatildaIThink

The REPORTED advice incident are a fraction of what is occurring . It’s well known that most dv is NOT reported

Don’t tell women that the representation of women in porn , Instagram and other media is not a body image issue . Biggest gaslight ever
Nice try[/quote]
The REPORTED advice incident are a fraction of what is occurring . It’s well known that most dv is NOT reported
What FACTS do you have then? You keep claiming to want facts, then when someone supplies them you say "not those facts". Your position is that most men commit DV, so if you want that accusation to stand then you need to supply evidence which supports that position, can you do that?

^Don’t tell women that the representation of women in porn , Instagram and other media is not a body image issue . Biggest gaslight ever
Nice try^
That is not what I said, but you do seem to like twisting words and gaslighting. I said that the way women are portrayed in porn is not a body issue, because it is not. Most porn (which ranges from women with gym fit bodies to BBW porn) has the same major issues, unrealistic portrayals of sex, generally women used for a man (or men's) pleasure with the women holding no greater part than as a sex object. Porn is also a different issue to social media, I differentiated between the two.

The issue with social media for both men and women is unrealistic body images, images with filters that show immaculate skin are just the start, my husband is into running and cycling, Instagram curates a feed on his account which is basically lots of PTs trying to sell online services to get a six pack, with the message that men are not good partners without them. Just as the pressure on women is to be slim, big breasted, stupid large lips etc. Much of social media is toxic for both sexes, you seem to refuse to even consider it.

You also need to learn to read, you are projecting your own irrational emotions onto other posters comments, not reading what they have actually written, but reading what you think they have written, then launching into an attack based on some perceived slight you think they have made.

Overestimate the influence we as mothers have on our sons? Do you really think so? I think our influence as the first women in our son's lives is inestimable. We teach them how to treat women. The buck stops with us.

Yes, I profoundly disagree with you OP. I've explained why in my previous posts.

Mothers are very, very important. Fathers are very, very important. Male influences in society, near and wide, are very, very important.

The buck does not stop with mothers.

Of course it's easier to change your own actions, in your own home, than to change society, so it's comforting to believe that everything can be changed by mothers, at home. It's not true though.

@MatildaIThink
‘
‘Most men are decent, kind, caring, balanced human beings. Yes there is a minority who are truly awful and a larger minority who are bad, but have some redeeming features, but that is the same with women, as you are doing your very best to demonstrate on here.’

Yeah 12% of men thinking consent can be bought and 70% using porn predominately from site that have a reputation for exploiting demeaning women , underage material and uploads thag are without consent
70% of men are happy to support the degradation of women and girls and your sitting there trying to say they are good
That’s without even going into the violence

No

@MatildaIThink couldn’t agree less on the porn . Bww, older women , disabled women or any women who deviate from the typical young slim etc are seen as fetish

Regarding Instagram . Do the posts of the men om Instagram show them in g strings looking back over their shoulders showing their asses

Explain to me if pirn isn’t about women’s bodies and directing them why there are catagory after catagory of ages , nationalities , heights breast size it goes on and on .
And guess what it’s not men in those categories
You might be lucky to have two categories for men but there will be often 50 plus based on women’s body parts
To sit there and say that doesn’t objectify and affect how many women feel about their bodies is ridiculous
Women are portrayed way differently and objectified in ways men simply are not !