Men, what is WRONG with you??!

[Aliceclara]

My God! The thing that strikes me when I read a lot of these posts on Mumsnet is have men lost their way? Why are so many men incapable of behaving like decent, kind, caring, responsible human beings? What makes some of them entitled, arrogant, immature twats? Some of this must come down to upbringing. I have two grown sons and they would never behave this way! And if it's down to upbringing, is the responsibility for this down to inadequate parenting, inadequate mothers? I don't know the answer, but I think it's time the decent men made a stand against this. Too much misogyny, too much violence against women, not enough equality. What the hell is happening to society??!

As we have gone down the hole of toxic masculinity and its culture.

Why are men still expected to be the main bread winner? SAHD = Cocklodger?
Why are men still expected to pay for the first date? If they don't they are tight wads.
Men should show their feelings, but on this threads this has been linked to incels.
Men should be respectful of women (i don't disagree) then why go out with the "badboys" that treat you like shit?
Men shouldn't objectify women (again agree) but when women do it its 'different'
There are many contradictions that are being put forward on this and other threads.
and even when the same behaviours are done by women they are being minimised by saying men do it more, or when women do it it hurts less.

Either everybody models the same correct behaviour or its not going to work.

SAHD has NEVER equalled cocklodger! You have made that up. Cocklodgers do not take on responsibility, especially childcare.

lottiegarbanzo

Not made up at all. Various posters on MN have equated the two.

lottiegarbanzo

and I am also including societal views as well.

Show me the evidence. I believe I will be able to show you people who have misunderstood the term 'cocklodger', because that's not what it means.

@FrippEnos

As we have gone down the hole of toxic masculinity and its culture.

Why are men still expected to be the main bread winner? SAHD = Cocklodger?
Why are men still expected to pay for the first date? If they don't they are tight wads.
Men should show their feelings, but on this threads this has been linked to incels.
Men should be respectful of women (i don't disagree) then why go out with the "badboys" that treat you like shit?
Men shouldn't objectify women (again agree) but when women do it its 'different'
There are many contradictions that are being put forward on this and other threads.
and even when the same behaviours are done by women they are being minimised by saying men do it more, or when women do it it hurts less.

Either everybody models the same correct behaviour or its not going to work.

The equivalent of a SAHM is a SAHD not a cocklodger which is a completely different thing

You ask why men are expected to pay on the first date despite the fact 50/50 dating is huge . Even in a world where women in general earn MUCH less than men , occupy far fewer high paying positions abd own a tiny amount of the resources on the planet . Will said man compensate the female for her extra time and cost of getting ready seeing as the vast minority of men expect women to dress and wear makeup to look like they want .
Incels ade just ‘men showing their feelings ‘ wth , incels are men who think men should be ‘given ‘ women from the government to have sex with and that women who won’t date them deserve to be raped and shot
You call that just ‘ showing their feelings ‘
Men objectifying women is on a scale NOTHING alike what women have ever done to men . Point me to the porn industry where men are routinely rates , abused and demeaned .
Myra I agree there’s many contradictions and they are all from you

[quote Kittenlittlen]@saraclara

So let me get this straight , your concerned that women don’t generalise about men because we complain about them doing that to us
……….::but you have nothing to actually say about them doing that repeatedly on literally thousands of platforms. You think complaining about women doing so in one thread on platform is more important [/quote]
I said "a site equivalent to mumsnet" so why are you referring to incel sites?

You write well so you can't be as incapable of recognising a false equivalence as you appear to be.

Let's spell it out. If there was a dadsnet website where men posted mirror images of the posts found on mumsnet, many women would be infuriated by thread titles such as this.

I'm not for a moment saying that we should be ignoring the sexism and misogyny in the world. That's a massive subject and my original point was more of a 'by the by'. I'm just saying let's not be hypocrites.

Yes evidence

What the heck is with these posters who come on here claiming all this nonsense about men being hard done by but can’t come up with one actual statistic or bit of actual data that’s from a verified source

@saraclara

Oh I see so a site MORE extreme where men degrade women and speak about them and fucktoys is worse than this mumsnet thread
Lol

But seeing as you don’t want to accept WORSE a sites from men
Reddit is a forum . It has opinion s go look at the threads there , much more horrible things being said

There’s nothing hypocritical about speaking g out about men’s bad behaviour especially when it leads to horrible horrible violent and degrading things being done to women and girls

At this point in a thread there's a choice. Chase the derailers down their own rabbit hole, or ignore them and get back to discussing the issue OP posted about, with other people willing to discuss that issue.

@Holly60

It won't be exactly half. How could it be? I don't know the statistics for single parent families or same sex parents etc etc. My point is, what/who are the influences on our sons when they are growing up? Are we teaching them how to be good men? I believe that we are raising a society of entitled men. Not exclusively, of course. I'm not saying all men are bad - obviously. But what I am saying is we should have higher expectations for our children, both sons and daughters. And that means some hard parenting. I have friends who's teenage sons behave with total disrespect and disregard towards them and their families. What sort of partners will these men make? They already see themselves as entitled, trampling over the feelings of others. If we don't teach our children how to be compassionate adults, how will they ever learn? If we, as mothers, accept arrogance, lack of respect and defiance from our own sons, we are teaching them that it's ok to treat women this way.

if there was a dadsnet website where men posted mirror images of the posts found on mumsnet, many women would be infuriated by thread titles such as this.

If women (as a class) committed the same kind of violence against men to the same level as men (as a class) do to women, believe me, there’d be millions of such sites. And I would support them.

It beggars belief that you can’t see the asymmetry

Some forums have a block feature so that you can add posters to the list and never ever see their posts ever again.
It's a lovely feature.

If we, as mothers, accept arrogance, lack of and defiance from our own sons..

And what if we don’t accept the arrogance and defiance but we still receive it?

@Lessthanaballpark

if there was a dadsnet website where men posted mirror images of the posts found on mumsnet, many women would be infuriated by thread titles such as this.

If women (as a class) committed the same kind of violence against men to the same level as men (as a class) do to women, believe me, there’d be millions of such sites. And I would support them.

It beggars belief that you can’t see the asymmetry

Omg yes absolutely . And it’s not just the violence it’s the predatory behaviour the way men demean women and support the sex industry the hole thing

To claim that oh but men don’t say this on dads net so we shouldn’t is a joke

Fuck all the hardcore forums fuck reddit threads ( pretty mainstreams , ) or the millions of sex sites where men enjoy seeing women hurt , demeaned whatever and write the foulest of comments about women and girls

There’s no hope really if someone even needs that’s explained to them

What people often ignore is that it is a spectrum. Men as a group exploit women in hundreds of different ways.

At one end of the spectrum is refusing to share the mental load, refusing to help with school and nursery pick-ups, not doing their share of chores around the house and treating the woman as default parent and housekeeper. This disadvantages women both economically and health wise as they have to sacrifice work and leisure time to fill the gaps. Many men seem to feel 'entitled' to use women in this way... you see this in men who argue they should be able to do their hobby all weekend since they work during the week.

In the middle of the spectrum, you see low level harassment, gaslighting and financial abuse.

At the other end of the spectrum, male entitlement manifests itself in physical and sexual violence towards women.

While thankfully there are few men towards the end of the spectrum, most men fall somewhere on it in terms of exploiting women. It's not difficult. Every time a man refuses to do night feeds for his DC or to change a nappy when it's his turn, or ignores the laundry/washing-up in the hope that his partner will get sick of asking and do it herself, he is guilty of this exploitation.

@lottiegarbanzo

At this point in a thread there's a choice. Chase the derailers down their own rabbit hole, or ignore them and get back to discussing the issue OP posted about, with other people willing to discuss that issue.

Yes you’re right , I won’t be asking any more time on them

@Wotwhywhen

Some forums have a block feature so that you can add posters to the list and never ever see their posts ever again. It's a lovely feature.

Ahhh Thankyou @Wotwhywhen that’s very helpful

You only get one side on here. Women won't be coming on saying their faults.

@Cam77

Britain has quite a large, menacing and violent youth segment, say males ages 12-20, which doesn't exist quite so out on the open in most other European countries. The young mobs who hang around looking for trouble around shop fronts and underpasses. They mostly grow up as violent thugs and then throw in the British binge drinking culture and it's a recipe for disaster.

In other news, thousands men of 21 & over, non-mob members, some of them even (shocker!) middle class professionals, abuse & terrorise women in their own homes.

But that doesn't get to feature in a Daily Mail article, so yeah - let's blame Da Working Class Youff.

[quote DoctorTwo]@Susannahmoody femiinism isn't for men. As such, I try to understand as well as I can the struggles women face and see how I can make my interactions with women as easy for them as possible. I've taught my son to do the same and, so far, he seems to be doing ok. I call out misogyny when I see it, but when you're a little bloke you run the risk of getting your head kicked in. But that's a chance I have to take.

I read FWR every day but rarely comment, it's not my space unless I have an insight into whatever they're discussing on a particular thread. Otherwise I read and try to absorb knowledge.[/quote]
Nice post Doc, cheers :)

@flibberyjibbery8

You only get one side on here. Women won't be coming on saying their faults.

Well I will go first … just for starters I havnt beaten or raped anyone I havnt used Alex workers I don’t watch men or teen boys being sexually abused I havnt posted pictures of an ex online I havnt ignored my children’s night feed I havnt left the housework for my spouse I havnt expected my spouse to take the lions share of responsibility for childcare

I think there are two things there OP.

One is about it being easier for parents to cut corners in DCs' early upbringing (DCs of both sexes), by doing domestic tasks quickly themselves and/or paying others to do them, rather than teaching their children to do them, step by tedious, frustrating step. You have to go through a lot of pain to achieve the eventual gain. Just as you do teaching manners but that's usually less messy.

A lot of DC find their way out of that when they have to stand on their own feet in early adulthood but some don't and boys are more likely to get away with that than girls, because some girls (not most but some) are still brought up to serve men domestically.

Then there are the influences and role models that boys adopt and accept. I've noticed that even among the nice, well brought up DCs from stable families that I know, there is a change at around age 8, after that initial pump-priming hormone surge that all DC seem to experience around age 7-8. Those boys who have been influenced by masculine hierarchies, through sport especially, can start to show a real disrespect for women in authority. So that's a wider societal issue.

Not Alex worker … sex workers …. Not by the name of Alex or otherwise