Be honest. If a man expected you...

[AWiseWomanOnceSaidFuckThisShit]

to split the bill on a first date would it put you off?

@MyPatronusIsACat - the idea that equality between the sexes should apply consistently to everything, rather than being suspended when convenient to save a few bob on a meal? No, that's not a joke.

Like some people have mentioned here, it can be nice when going for a meal with someone to offer to pay for them, and I may well do that with a friend, but that's got nothing to do with gender. I've got male friends and female friends and it wouldn't occur to me to treat them any differently in that respect. On a first date, there's not really a background understanding of friendship to base things on, so the only reasonable thing to assume is that you'll split the bill.

I find it incomprehensible that in 2021 there are people that still believe in gender-based financial roles.

People are deluded if they think a man wanting a woman to pay her fair share, does so because he believes she is his EQUAL, and he is a massive supporter of equal rights for women. PMSL. As if.

In the vast majority of cases, it's because he's a tight arse, or he's quite poor. And both of these scenarios are off-putting for the vast VAST majority of women. (Whether they care to admit it or not.)

So if a man wants a woman to pay her fair share, it's because he's a tight-arse or poor (even though you yourself just described it as "fair" - it's not like he's expecting her to do anything special). Therefore if a woman expects to pay LESS than her fair share, she must be a REALLY tight-arse, or REALLY poor, right?

Would both of those scenarios be similarly off-putting to the majority of men?

@Wrapitupgood

Great job of spectacularly missing the point.

I know a few men and have done for years

Who insist on buying rounds etc and Def no woman/ girl should pay. And it would really insult them to refuse more than a token try.

Still often before covid with a great roll of notes in their pocket!

There's times and places. I'm not going to push the point if it is a really big deal for a man I know and like.

So like I said. On a date I would expect and prefer to go halves.

I suppose a lot of it is the whole dynamic that can come in that they think expect etc you owe them something

Like when a man you don't know says let me buy you a drink when you're out. It's got strings attached even if trivial. I don't like that.

I do think on a date when the bill comes well I mean I'd say let's go halves at that point.

Men prob don't know WTF they're supposed to do tbh!

First date for me was usually pub so none of this stuff was a problem

@Wrapitupgood

As I said earlier in the thread. I have my views and opinions, and I am entitled to them, whether you like them or not, and I DON'T have to explain myself or justify why I think what I do (and how I do.)

So I will just say this...

Don't waste your breath. Because nothing you or anyone else says is going to make me change my opinions.

And that goes out to anyone else.

Posted to soon.

Last bit should have read... And that goes out to anyone else who is outraged by my opinions, and demands to know why I have them!

People are deluded if they think a man wanting a woman to pay her fair share, does so because he believes she is his EQUAL, and he is a massive supporter of equal rights for women. PMSL. As if.

I don't think that a man offering to go halves is an indication of him being invested in women's rights. I pay 50% of the meal because it's fair. I'm an adult with my own money, I can pay for my own food. If you're in a relationship with someone, then sure, treat each other. But I'd think it was taking the piss if someone I was on a first date with expected me to pay the whole bill, and I don't expect it of anyone else.

@MyPatronusIsACat

Posted to soon.

Last bit should have read... And that goes out to anyone else who is outraged by my opinions, and demands to know why I have them!

Get over yourself. No one's outraged and no one can demand anything of you. You're on an anonymous forum, not in court.

As I said earlier in the thread. I have my views and opinions, and I am entitled to them, whether you like them or not, and I DON'T have to explain myself or justify why I think what I do (and how I do.)

Nothing wrong with a classic traditional woman wanting to attract a man with classic traditional values IMO if that's what she wants.

I wouldn’t accept a man paying on a first date

Becayse quite frankly I am equal. And often more.

I can take care of myself. I can assess risk. I can manage my own contraception. I can decide who ans when to have sex with. I am employed as much if not more

I feel sorry for those who feel they are not, but I can assure you.

I am equal.

@MyPatronusIsACat I'm not trying to make you change your opinions, or demanding to know why you have them. Old fashioned gender roles are not really my thing or what I bring as a starting assumption when meeting new people, but I understand they are some peoples.

Those people just need to be honest about them and what they entail. You don't get to pick and choose which parts of the patriarchy you'd rather still have around.

@Journeyofthedragons

As I said earlier in the thread. I have my views and opinions, and I am entitled to them, whether you like them or not, and I DON'T have to explain myself or justify why I think what I do (and how I do.)

Nothing wrong with a classic traditional woman wanting to attract a man with classic traditional values IMO if that's what she wants.

THIS

is what I meant.

@Journeyofthedragons

*If you expect me to pay, fine. But make sure you dress like a pornstar, spend all evening gazing at me adoringly, laughing at my jokes and admiring how big and strong I am, and assume that when we get married you'll give up your career to stay home and keep house for me.

Alternatively - if you want me to treat you like an equal, behave like one. Fair*

I actually agree with this (except for the porn star bit) and if that's what both people are looking for and are happy with then more power to them.

"Alternatively - if you want me to treat you like an equal, behave like one. Fair?"

Completely missing the point - at least for my perspective. To explain myself - I am not one for 'traditional values' for the sake of 'tradition'. In my view, sex vs money is one of the most heartbreaking, disappointing (and common) transactions out there. Maybe that view is old-fashioned!

For me, expecting a man to pay is expecting him to realise that he occupies an advantageous position to me (especially sexually), that he is of generous spirit, and that he feels I am worth extending his arm for.

You simply can't flip these positions equally because they DON'T flip equally.

It's not about being compensated for the disadvantage because a) it is no compensation and b) I couldn't care less about the money. It's the filter on his character. I completely accept that he is welcome to filter my character however he wishes.

The biggest filter of all is making sure this is not a man who already believes we have equality, and therefore resents it when the discrepancies inevitably show up.

This is indeed the mistake I made with my own marriage (still trundling along, and trying to improve its lot). I paid my way, spoke disapprovingly about "feminists" and heralded the virtues of modern times and equality. What a fool I was.

It took pregnancy, associated illness, childbirth, postnatal illness, and 2 children with additonal needs for me to see that his version of "equality" meant ignoring all of this and expecting his life to carry on unaffected by mine - right down to carrying heavy hospital baggage when I was starved, post-birth, with a blood count in my boots. "That's equality!"

We are equal in worth, but nowhere near equal in societal advantage. I don't need someone else's money, nor count it as a measure of worth in a man. But I do need to see a sign that a man acknowledges the discrepancy between us and doesn't resent extending himself. It could equally be time or effort-investment. Actual inability to pay, for example, wouldn't phase me. Unwillingness on the basis of "equality" is a no-go.

I think I understand what you're saying @PatriciaBateman, I just don't see how it translates into expecting a man to pay for your dinner on a first date.

@Wrapitupgood

I'm a man and I'll just say that the hypocrisy of assuming feminist values of equal rights and capabilities, while reverting to demure 1950s debutante the moment it comes time to pay for anything, is one of the most singularly unattractive qualities I've ever seen in women.

If you expect me to pay, fine. But make sure you dress like a pornstar, spend all evening gazing at me adoringly, laughing at my jokes and admiring how big and strong I am, and assume that when we get married you'll give up your career to stay home and keep house for me.

Alternatively - if you want me to treat you like an equal, behave like one. Fair?

Hmm. I can't even begin to deconstruct this pile of misogynist wank...

I can't understand those who see romantic relationships in such black and white terms. Surely love and romance are more nuanced than that? It's not a job interview. In my single days I used to like the feeling that a man was trying to woo me a bit and impress me! It's not that money impresses me, it's the feeling like you're worth the effort.

itsnotover agree. You’ve nailed it.

@PatriciaBateman that makes some sense. I do understand what you mean about an indication of generosity. One of the things I hate most is when people in social situations make money a big issue. People who rather than splitting the bill, will want to dissect exactly who ate what and make sure you pay your £29.85 so they don't have to pay more than their £26.97! TBH, if it's just easier for whatever reason I'll just pay for the other person. Again though that's got nothing to do with gender, and is harder when you don't know the person or whether you're going to see them again. My point was not so much that it's absolutely imperative the woman must always pay her share, but rather just that it wouldn't occur to me to expect anything else as the default, starting assumption.

The rest I'm not sure. As a man it's safer for me to walk down a dark street at night than for a woman, so I'd probably offer/insist on walking her home whereas I wouldn't expect the same in return. That might be an example of where the simple reality of different gender-based experience requires different responses.

It wouldn't occur to me to do this with money because I'm not particularly wealthy myself, and in most cases I wouldn't have a much higher income than her - often probably lower.

I've been in a relationship for 17 years so it feels very far from my experience. But I'd say no it would not put me off. It would make me feel we were getting off on a more even footing.

@Comedycook

I can't understand those who see romantic relationships in such black and white terms. Surely love and romance are more nuanced than that? It's not a job interview. In my single days I used to like the feeling that a man was trying to woo me a bit and impress me! It's not that money impresses me, it's the feeling like you're worth the effort.

Depends on your personality though!

I hate being picked out, 'wooed'.

I'm way happier being the picker. And the wooer I suppose!

Luckily plenty of men I've met seem aok with this

I also am very wary of men I don't know offering me stuff. It rarely comes without strings IME.

So in the end it's horses for courses and probably a good way for men and women to know if the person is on the same wavelength!

Just so I've got it clear-
It's laughable that a man offering to go halves does it because he sees the woman as an equal, rather than just being a cheapskate (and I agree, it is no indication), but a man offering to pay is a reasonable indication that he understands the extensive inequalities women face, rather than him just following tradition?

You haven't got any assurance that he understands or recognises anything about the disadvantages facing women, anymore than you'd have an assurance that he saw you as an equal by offering to go halves.
The only thing you've been assured is a free meal.

@Journeyofthedragons

I think I understand what you're saying *@PatriciaBateman*, I just don't see how it translates into expecting a man to pay for your dinner on a first date.

It doesn't necessarily translate to that. I would happily date a man who was dirt poor and hope he would show his extension of himself in another way.

However, most of the time this isn't a factor (in my narrow experience) and I am trying to explore and simultaneously share my thought process based on this specific hypothetical scenario, and why I would choose the way I choose.

There are no guarantees on a first date. We really don't have much idea who we're marrying until we're already there. Doesn't stop many of us looking for every mm of a clue we can find though.

I basically don't want a man who believes we currently hold equal advantage. Because I don't believe we do.
And I want a man who is generous, because I am - to a fault, and I don't want to be abused for that again.

I don't judge people who have other values btw. I don't think there is a right or a wrong way to do this dating business. Just compatible and incompatible.

@PatriciaBateman

You seem to be talking about the "you wanted equality, now you got it" MRA type and if this system (hypothetically) works for you then that's good, personally I'm not so sure.

It’s a bit ridiculous to justify blatant sexist attitudes (expecting men to pay just because they are men) by citing sexism. If you don’t like sexism (and I don’t) why are you perpetuating it cos you want a free dinner (or in reality want someone to take care of you and buy you things when it suits you).

I think women with these attitudes (that men should be breadwinners to be valuable, women should marry well, etc etc) are perpetrating inequality. We are all people and there is absolutely no reason anyone should pay for another due to their sex.