Be honest. If a man expected you...

[AWiseWomanOnceSaidFuckThisShit]

to split the bill on a first date would it put you off?

He orders fillet steak. £28. You order a plate of pasta. £7.50. One bottle of wine between you. Then he springs the suggestion on you

I'd just say I'll pay for what I had rather than agree to split it 50/50, which is what happens if I'm with a group of friends. He's having a laugh if he expects a 50/50 split with such a spend difference like that too

The accepted dance is - man offers to pay, women says let's split - both parties pay. Any deviance from this can be seen as a red flag from either side.

@JassyRadlett

But in a world significantly weighted towards men, 50:50 isn't exactly "equal", is it?

Though of course at the age at which most women are on first dates is before the gender pay gap sets in. So much more likely to be 50/50.

In all likelihood a woman who ends up marrying one of these men will end up paying for 50% of bills (regardless of income), doing 100% of the domestic work, and 100% of the childcare. She would also be expected to do 100% of the shopping, and hence end up paying 100% of the costs towards that.

Again, no one has showed me any statistics on the relationship between the split of domestic labour and first date payment practices. I also think you’re drawing some pretty wild assumptions - I’d be interested to see the evidence for the 100% of shopping, etc?

Again, it comes down to boundaries to establish equal relationships - including being willing to walk away at any point.

I never needed a first date paid for as a down payment against an expectation of future inequality. Partly because I knew I would never tolerate that inequality.

Though of course at the age at which most women are on first dates is before the gender pay gap sets in. So much more likely to be 50/50

You do realise that plenty of older women with children date too? An awful lot of marriages end in divorce and presumably even more splits of non-married couples who have children.

Yes I'd definitely expect for a man to pay, but then I'm slightly old fashioned. It doesn't mean I'm not for women's rights or equality- I'm a huge supporter of women's rights. However it's nice for a man to dote on a woman, in a romantic sense.

I'm a man and I'll just say that the hypocrisy of assuming feminist values of equal rights and capabilities, while reverting to demure 1950s debutante the moment it comes time to pay for anything, is one of the most singularly unattractive qualities I've ever seen in women.

If you expect me to pay, fine. But make sure you dress like a pornstar, spend all evening gazing at me adoringly, laughing at my jokes and admiring how big and strong I am, and assume that when we get married you'll give up your career to stay home and keep house for me.

Alternatively - if you want me to treat you like an equal, behave like one. Fair?

*If you expect me to pay, fine. But make sure you dress like a pornstar, spend all evening gazing at me adoringly, laughing at my jokes and admiring how big and strong I am, and assume that when we get married you'll give up your career to stay home and keep house for me.

Alternatively - if you want me to treat you like an equal, behave like one. Fair*

I actually agree with this (except for the porn star bit) and if that's what both people are looking for and are happy with then more power to them.

Oh god, I see the romance = the man pays brigade are out again.

You do realise that plenty of older women with children date too? An awful lot of marriages end in divorce and presumably even more splits of non-married couples who have children.

Yes, that’s why I used the word ‘most’ and ‘more likely’ in there. Because it’s also not the case that all women earn less than men after having their first children, or that ‘older’ women dating will be paying the childbearing penalty, as not all will have children which is what most often drives the pay penalty.

@Journeyofthedragons

The accepted dance is - man offers to pay, women says let's split - both parties pay. Any deviance from this can be seen as a red flag from either side.

Can you explain why a woman saying ‘I’ll get this’ would be a red flag?

*All these women saying they want an equal partnership hence why they pay...so naive. I can assure you the men aren't thinking the same...they're generally thinking, excellent I saved £27.50 on that meal. Oh and when you go off on maternity leave, you won't be able to keep up your equal partnership as your income will dip significantly. He'll have to contribute more or you'll be penny pinching, rinsing your savings or getting into debt.

It is not naive at all. My OH is thinking exactly the same. He shared all his money when I was on mat leave. He is very generous with both his time, care and money. It is possible to find a man who is not the tyrant you are suggesting. My friend's OP's are all the same. Perhaps you have just been unlucky or made bad choices.**

Not really because I wouldn't go for a second date with a man who split the bill with me

That's not relevant as to whether it is naïve. You're perfectly entitled not to go on a second date with a man who is more modern in his thinking. Your choice not to do so does not mean that all men are incapable of being in an equal partnership.

I would want to split it, I have my own money and always paid half when me and DH were dating. If they insisted I would pay the next date. I don't see why anyone would expect a man to pay unless they're from the 1950s.

@JassyRadlett

Sorry, my bad - "person A offers to pay, person B says let's split - both parties pay" works better.

@Wrapitupgood

I'm a man and I'll just say that the hypocrisy of assuming feminist values of equal rights and capabilities, while reverting to demure 1950s debutante the moment it comes time to pay for anything, is one of the most singularly unattractive qualities I've ever seen in women.

If you expect me to pay, fine. But make sure you dress like a pornstar, spend all evening gazing at me adoringly, laughing at my jokes and admiring how big and strong I am, and assume that when we get married you'll give up your career to stay home and keep house for me.

Alternatively - if you want me to treat you like an equal, behave like one. Fair?

🤢🤮

@Wrapitupgood

I'm a man and I'll just say that the hypocrisy of assuming feminist values of equal rights and capabilities, while reverting to demure 1950s debutante the moment it comes time to pay for anything, is one of the most singularly unattractive qualities I've ever seen in women.

If you expect me to pay, fine. But make sure you dress like a pornstar, spend all evening gazing at me adoringly, laughing at my jokes and admiring how big and strong I am, and assume that when we get married you'll give up your career to stay home and keep house for me.

Alternatively - if you want me to treat you like an equal, behave like one. Fair?

You sound utterly vile.

@AWiseWomanOnceSaidFuckThisShit

I really don't know why people on here are so concerned expectations will be on the table if you let him pay. He can expect all he wants, just give him a polite fuck off!

Same could be said about the expectation that he'll pay

I've always split the bill. Always earned more than most of my partners including my XH so why would I expect someone to pay for me.

One exception was a guy who snuck off to pay the bill when he went to the loo. I thought that was kind and generous and I wasn't offended. But I'd never expect someone to do that.

My friend has a very rich partner who tends to automatically pick up the bill - that makes me very uncomfortable. He shouldn't feel obliged to do so.

When I'm in a relationship though whoever asks for the date pays the bill. Take turns in other words. Unless a massive disparity in the choices.

[quote Journeyofthedragons]@JassyRadlett

Sorry, my bad - "person A offers to pay, person B says let's split - both parties pay" works better.[/quote]
Ah fair, thanks for clarifying!

Not at all and I cringe at people who expect to be paid for

As a pp suggested, if you want to end up in a financially imbalanced, 'the man is always in charge' kind of relationship, look for someone who insists on paying on the first.

This is 2021 for goodness' sake. Men were expected to pay for dinner when only men earned money - you know, before women were allowed opinions, jobs and the vote!

If you want to be in an equal r'ship, with equal respect, don't act like 1930s housewife on your first date.

@Wrapitupgood

I'm a man and I'll just say that the hypocrisy of assuming feminist values of equal rights and capabilities, while reverting to demure 1950s debutante the moment it comes time to pay for anything, is one of the most singularly unattractive qualities I've ever seen in women.

If you expect me to pay, fine. But make sure you dress like a pornstar, spend all evening gazing at me adoringly, laughing at my jokes and admiring how big and strong I am, and assume that when we get married you'll give up your career to stay home and keep house for me.

Alternatively - if you want me to treat you like an equal, behave like one. Fair?

This is a joke right?

. PLEASE say it is!

My DP paid on the first (and most subsequent) dates. We’re perfectly equal, in fact I earn more than him at the moment. I think it’s lovely he wanted to treat me and took it as a sign of his interest.

@CoffeeTopUp
Haircut / colour £90
Nails £25
Eyebrows £10
Dress £50
Shoes £30
New tights £5

Little lady make pretty, big man pay dinner

@bunny85

Yes I'd definitely expect for a man to pay, but then I'm slightly old fashioned. It doesn't mean I'm not for women's rights or equality- I'm a huge supporter of women's rights. However it's nice for a man to dote on a woman, in a romantic sense.

This. ^

@PatriciaBateman

I used to be the kind of person that was 50/50 'equal everything', but I realised reading this thread that my views have completely changed.

I wouldn't go on a second date with a man who didn't offer to pay.

In my head-fantasy scenario, it goes like this: I offer to pay (because I always would, and follow-through if needed), he says something nonchalant about taking care of it, and off we go.

I would feel appreciative, not take it for granted, and show appreciation back (including via gift giving which I am very generous with), but I would require his initial offer for the relationship to go anywhere. Otherwise, I would cough up politely but make my excuses going forward.

Now why is this? I've had to explore the 'why' myself, so feel free to skip the essay that follows, or dive in if you like a bit of indulgent amateur self-psycho-analysis:

• We are NOT equal

Yes, we are equal in worth, in humanity, in value. But no, we are not equal in society at all - and even less so in the arena of intimate dating where the female carries virtually all the risks - up to and including beating, rape, murder (two of which I have experience of, and am no means rare for this).

There is also the visceral/physical fear involved once one of these things has happened to you (good percentage of women). And even if things are wonderful, the risk of unwanted pregnancy again falls on you - with the mental toll and health issues that transpire regardless of what you choose to do about it. Contraception? Probably my problem too.

Dating and especially sexual intimacy puts a far higher burden and risk on the female.

Society still exacts a heavier toll on me more generally - pays me less, hires me less often, scolds me for motherhood or lack of motherhood, punishes me for being a working mother or a non-working mother, expects more grooming/maintenance, expects more unpaid/unrecognised labour in the home. We are default carer, the default 'be kind' one.

It shouldn't be this way, but it currently is, and I am not one to turn a blind eye to reality any more.
I want a man who sees that reality and is good-heartedly willing to up his own stake because of it. It tells me that he has a protective and nurturing nature, and isn't just out for himself.

In return, I do not take that for granted. I hold deep respect and love for an individual willing to stick their oar out for me, and would meet it with my own generosity in spades.
I think for me - it's that I have finally and ultimately recognised (kicking and screaming all the way) - I do not have equality, nowhere near yet. I don't want a man that suffers (or worse - resents) the illusion that I do.

Very good post.

I was thinking something along these lines, but couldn't articulate it. No, women and men are NOT equal, and nor should we try to be.

And as I said earlier, just because a man wants a woman to pay for what she has consumed on their 'date,' that does NOT mean he thinks of her as an equal. Indeed IME, (and the experience of many women I know,) men who don't pay on the first date are often the most tight fisted feckers.

People are deluded if they think a man wanting a woman to pay her fair share, does so because he believes she is his EQUAL, and he is a massive supporter of equal rights for women. PMSL. As if.

In the vast majority of cases, it's because he's a tight arse, or he's quite poor. And both of these scenarios are off-putting for the vast VAST majority of women. (Whether they care to admit it or not.)

Also as I said before - and many others have said - I would pay next time, and treat him to the cinema or something. But like many others, I would really REALLY be put off if I went on a first date, and he got the calculator out and started reckoning up what I had consumed, and asked me to pay for myself.

So off-putting.

A few posters on here seem extremely annoyed that some women like a man to pay on the first date and would be put off if he didn't. I mean God FORBID other women have different opinions and views to you!