Be honest. If a man expected you...

[AWiseWomanOnceSaidFuckThisShit]

to split the bill on a first date would it put you off?

Yes it would put me off, old fashioned I know. I’m not mean with money, I’m the high earner and pay more towards life but on a first date at least buy me a drink

Way too many women settle for mean spirited little dates, rubbish and boring conversation and a life time of penny pinching. Where is the glamour, the sparkle and the joy in that? I would rather stay at home and drink a glass or two with my girlfriends.

Demand more. Expect more.

There's always threads on these boards from women who have paid halves throughout their relationship then when they have a baby and go on maternity leave, their husbands still expect them to pay half. Woman obviously can't so either goes without herself so she can afford nappies or gets into debt trying to pay 'her share'

My friend had a particularly horrendous date where he itemised in pen, that he retrieved from his pocket - everything she consumed, and then spent some time checking and double checking the total!!! If that is not going to kill any sexy chemistry I don't know what will. The equivalent of turning on the lights and checking if your mother has called. If this is your idea of romance and fun then fine perfect, but she could not leave fast enough is the short story.

Tbh that’s not behaviour I’d be up for even from a friend I was out for a meal for, let alone a potential life partner. But neither would I expect a friend to pick up the bill if they’d suggested the meal.

And just like with a friend, it’s not a choice between ‘man sitting at the table with adding machine and pencil behind ear’ or ‘man pays for everything.’ It’s not either ‘unattractively tight’ or ‘Disney Prince charming’. That’s where the ability to divide by two comes in.

No, I always offered insisted I paid half

@stepupandbecounted

Way too many women settle for mean spirited little dates, rubbish and boring conversation and a life time of penny pinching. Where is the glamour, the sparkle and the joy in that? I would rather stay at home and drink a glass or two with my girlfriends.

Demand more. Expect more.

Really

Perfect for me would be: he offers, I politely refuse and suggest we go halves, he insists, I politely accept on the proviso I can pay next time. If I didn’t plan to see him again I would insist on going halves.

@JassyRadlett

I've always wondered just how many of the "cool crowd" who insist on letting men off the hook on dates ultimately end up in financially abusive relationships.

Can you explain the logic here, please? How does being financially independent and equal at the start of a relationship and eschewing ‘traditional’ financial setups in relationships result in financially abusive/controlling ‘traditional’ setups later in that relationship?

Top tip for avoiding financial abuse: never be financially dependent.

But in a world significantly weighted towards men, 50:50 isn't exactly "equal", is it?

In all likelihood a woman who ends up marrying one of these men will end up paying for 50% of bills (regardless of income), doing 100% of the domestic work, and 100% of the childcare. She would also be expected to do 100% of the shopping, and hence end up paying 100% of the costs towards that.

As I said, not "equal".

@Phrowzunn

Perfect for me would be: he offers, I politely refuse and suggest we go halves, he insists, I politely accept on the proviso I can pay next time. If I didn’t plan to see him again I would insist on going halves.

Agree.

@marcopront The one who thinks that 50:50 in a world where men hold all the cards is fair.

Jassy your description sounds totally transactional. No spontaneous gestures, everything measured out piecemeal equally. To me it sounds lifeless and boring and really unattractive.

I don't need to prove I am an equal, because I know that I am. It is an assumed starting point for all relationships, not just dates. I don't have to try and force boundaries, because they are already there.

The idea that I can't even accept a dinner or a weekend away just in case it wrecks my fragile standing as a feminist sounds really really extreme. Anyone measuring out what each is paying in would kill the passion stone dead for me, I would assume the same thing happens in bed and in life and would cut and run.
I
don't want a bank manager for a life partner, I want a generous sexy person that is going to enjoy his life with me without a highlighter in site or a bloody spreadsheet!!!

**sight

But in a world significantly weighted towards men, 50:50 isn't exactly "equal", is it?

Though of course at the age at which most women are on first dates is before the gender pay gap sets in. So much more likely to be 50/50.

In all likelihood a woman who ends up marrying one of these men will end up paying for 50% of bills (regardless of income), doing 100% of the domestic work, and 100% of the childcare. She would also be expected to do 100% of the shopping, and hence end up paying 100% of the costs towards that.

Again, no one has showed me any statistics on the relationship between the split of domestic labour and first date payment practices. I also think you’re drawing some pretty wild assumptions - I’d be interested to see the evidence for the 100% of shopping, etc?

Again, it comes down to boundaries to establish equal relationships - including being willing to walk away at any point.

I never needed a first date paid for as a down payment against an expectation of future inequality. Partly because I knew I would never tolerate that inequality.

I would be fully prepared even expect to pay my own way. It's important to me to start the way I expect to go on.

If he insisted on paying, I would thank him and agree to take it in turns to pick the venue and to pay in future. It actually works quite well if the person who is paying gets to chose the venue do they know what they are letting themselves in for.

If he did not go along with that, I would know that he is not the right one for me.

Anyone who feels that it is 'man-ly' for him to pick up the tab may also think that the important decisions in life are for him to take and my role would be to have his food ready when he got home. That might have worked for my mother's generation, I expect more.

I don't need to ask for more, I have the choices that are important to me.

For me, being treated 'well' means having equal access to resources and choices, getting what I choose not what someone decides is good for me.

For the record, I much prefer an aisle seat to a window seat. Why DH and I fly (flew) short haul together, we would each have the aisle seat in the same row.

I've always paid half on first dates. I think it's polite for whoever's done the asking out to offer to pay in full but, whichever way around that's happened, I've always paid half. Oddly enough, no one's ever sat there with a calculator or straining themselves for five minutes trying to divide a number by two, because I've only ever dated adults.
If the relationship takes off, you've got plenty of time to treat one another.

You seem very afraid that your equality will be taken away, defensive almost, did you have a bad experience Jassy? Because you seem pretty stressed about the idea of someone simply buying you dinner.

[quote Boatonthehorizon]@CoffeeTopUp
Haircut / colour £90
Nails £25
Eyebrows £10
Dress £50
Shoes £30
New tights £5

£210 and thats doing it cheaply. Expense is one of the reasons I dont bother any more.[/quote]
I understand your point but surely you don't do all of the above for a date? Grooming is something you do or don't do but if you do, you do it all the time - for yourself.

I think times have changed and expecting men to pay isn't the norm any longer. I think I'd be more comfortable with paying my own way/splitting a bill. No expectations from either side.

your description sounds totally transactional. No spontaneous gestures, everything measured out piecemeal equally. To me it sounds lifeless and boring and really unattractive.

You’re just making shit up now. We’re talking about first dates here, not about a total approach to relationships (and I’ve already described my own - lots of spontaneous gestures, treating each other unexpectedly, but also a strong bedrock of equality).

I just don’t think the presence of a penis means that someone has to pay for the first date to be considered a ‘man’. No fragile feminism or ‘never accepting a weekend away’ fgs.

Why do you keep banging on to me about highlighters and spreadsheets and itemised bills? Where have I suggested my approach or my life is anything like that?

As I said, you’re just making shit up. Why?

NO

"Anyone who feels that it is 'man-ly' for him to pick up the tab may also think that the important decisions in life are for him to take and my role would be to have his food ready when he got home."

I don't agree. I don't think those things correlate

I think I have revised my opinion slightly on reading this thread. The politeness aspect is him offering. I say no I'll pay half. He insists. I accept on proviso I pay next time.
If I'm not interested I insist I will pay half. The first date paying dance.

"I’d want him to offer to pay for it but for my suggestion to split it to be fairly quickly accepted."

Agree with this

If it was a first date with a stranger then I would go 50/50, but if it was someone I already knew (but was a colleague or mate) and I wanted to see again on a date then I would let him pay and I would get the next one.

I was happy for DH to pay on our first date as we already knew each other and we both knew that there would be further dates.

Definitely relieved. It hasn't been an issue for me for a while, but that wierd vibe when he pays, and then what does he expect for it always made me feel very uncomfortable, particularly if I didn't know him well (ie on a first date).

You seem very afraid that your equality will be taken away, defensive almost, did you have a bad experience Jassy? Because you seem pretty stressed about the idea of someone simply buying you dinner.

😂 ah bless you, no stress or fear here (though I do get annoyed by people who fabricate things about me to strengthen their otherwise crap arguments…) as I’ve said, I’m in a fab relationship where we have strong shared values. One of them is equalityI wouldn’t have hung around otherwise.

I just don’t buy the bollocks that to be ‘manly’ or an acceptable partner a man must foot the bill on the first date, and that if he doesn’t the woman’s going to end up in a financially abusive or otherwise ungenerous relationship. An awful lot of people on this thread trying to reverse engineer justifications for wanting to live out their Disney Princess fantasies in a contemporary world.

No.