Can’t decide whether I should leave previously controlling relationship

[Cantdecideaway]

I’ve been on MN a long time and have been trawling the relationships threads, amongst others, for a while, whilst trying to decide what to do about my situation.

I’ve been with my husband for 19 years, we met at school. Married for 11 years. We have a 10 year old son. My dad was exceptionally controlling, narcissistic and abusive and so moving out and in with my husband felt like a breath of fresh air! However, in the past couple of years I’ve come to recognise that he has been very controlling as well (used to refuse to allow me to talk to men, see friends of my own, pursue my own hobbies/interests etc).

As I’ve come to realise how unreasonable he’s been, I’ve been working through these issues with him and, to his credit, he’s recognised a need to change, and has been having therapy for the past year. He is no longer controlling of me although he is still very insecure.

However, I’ve come to realise, he contributes nothing to my life. He is pleasant enough and isn’t unkind to me, however I do all of the housework, mental load, parenting, caring for our animals, etc. The only thing he contributes is a paycheque. I feel like if he wasn’t there, things would be just the same, but with half the income. I wouldn’t miss him, I don’t think.

All of this is making me feel like I don’t love him, and perhaps I should leave. My son has been saying the same to me; we are very close and I think he has a good understanding of the situation. I would never burden him with this dilemma and have always reassured him that things are fine between me and my husband, however he says things like “it would be no different if daddy wasn’t here”. He works away a lot and my son is never bothered if he’s away, doesn’t miss or pine for him.

So the question is, should I stay or go. The problem being, I read so many threads on here about such awful men and I think, at least my husband is pleasant and reliable, would never cheat, earns a stable wage and doesn’t hurt us. But at the same time, it all feels hollow. I don’t love him and I don’t think to be honest he loves me. I feel really lonely. But I don’t want to leave only to find I’m even lonelier.

Sorry, that’s a long story. I have no one to turn to for advice as I am very low contact with my parents and my husband’s past behaviour has managed to ensure I don’t have any friends. Can anyone offer some perspective please?

Me again 😋 sorry, I'm like a dog with a bone on this particular topic.

These jumped out at me from your posts:

He has realised how controlling he used to be, and realised, after hours and hours of conversation, how awful that made me feel
You shouldn't have to talk until you're blue in the face for someone to understand how you feel. My husband can tell just by looking at me, often before I'm even aware of how I feel myself. And he thinks my feelings are important! Imagine that! (I never dreamed of such a luxury in my first marriage).

Anyway, I think he’s got the impression that I’m not very happy in our marriage and he’s trying really hard to be affectionate and loving but it all just feels fake and makes me uncomfortable.
Hmm, so that "going back in with both feet" would be rather difficult, wouldn't it? -- if even his best efforts make you feel creeped out. (Trust your gut, by the way.)

But while he’s being so nice I feel like if he asked me to explain what he could do differently, it would be hard to put my finger on what it was I’d like him to change.
This might have been just a slip of the keyboard (was it, though?!?!), but it sounds as though him "being nice" is a temporary and not particularly convincing state, perhaps adopted to keep you in place.

Sorry OP, don't let me put ideas into your head. Just use your critical appraisal skills. Like I did, you've had an entire lifetime, literally, of some bloke or other (father/husband) telling you how to think and feel. It becomes second nature to absorb their version of ourselves. Try digging down a bit with curiosity about what is really going on. You've probably forgotten how to answer that for yourself, but keep trying.

@Alcemeg I am so appreciative of you taking the time to talk this all through with me, your perspective is very rational and helpful.

You’re right, this “being nice” might well not last. He did a phase of “helping around the house” a few months ago which only lasted a week or so.

It sounds really shallow but I look around our (modest!) home and see things I’d really miss…I know I know they’re just things. I know I deserve to be cared for. I want to be cared for.

But I’m not leaving to be cared for, I’m leaving to be alone. There’s a possibility in the future of being cared for.

I know it makes no sense to stay. But it’s sure as hell the easier option.

I know it makes no sense to stay. But it’s sure as hell the easier option.

You might not think so in 50 years' time!

(sorry, not sure how old you are)

😁

@Alcemeg you’re right, and I wish my mum had left my dad and got to do all the things she’d wanted to in life that he’d precluded her from doing.

I’m 35. We got together when I’d just turned 16.

35! You have your whole life ahead of you. And if you and your husband live as long as my parents, you've got another 54 years of this to look forward to (and counting)...

You haven't even started living life yet if you got together when you were 16! You do realise, don't you, that you were a child then, and the choices you made don't have to bind you for ever.

You are so young, @Cantdecideaway!! You absolutely can have a different life. Don't condemn yourself to merely existing and, in the process of doing so, risk damaging your son.

Like you I met my controlling husband when I was very young. He was an interesting and pleasant man, a good provider, an involved and caring father. And yet....... [long story omitted but be assured he was very controlling and I totally lost myself and my own self-worth...]

I found myself at a crossroad when our children were of a similar age as your son. I vividly remember returning books about divorce to the library because I had decided my marriage wasn't 'bad enough' to leave and that it was better for the children that I persevere.

I finally left 20 years later. I won't go into detail, but all my children were damaged in different ways and struggle with relationships as a result.

And the life I could have had didn't happen. I'm glad I left, I have a great life now, but I do so wish I had taken the other fork in the road when I had the chance...

@FlowerArranger
I vividly remember returning books about divorce to the library because I had decided my marriage wasn't 'bad enough' to leave

Me too!!!!! OMG, that "Too Good to Leave..." book kept me up all night scribbling notes and just drove me mad because every time I thought I had clarity, I'd just undermine myself with doubts, thinking perhaps I wasn't being fair on him, etc.

@FlowerArranger and @Alcemeg - it must be hard to hear of someone else in a similar situation to your past situations and hearing that I’m not immediately walking out of the door - but the thing is he’s not controlling of me any more. I’m allowed to go out, do things on my own, but somehow I can’t enjoy it because it’s tainted with guilt, which is just what I’ve internalised from before because he never says anything and is very positive about my day when I come back. So maybe I just need to move forward from that? What if my situation isn’t as bad as yours was? Like you, I’m thinking it can’t be bad enough.

Well, it depends what you call "bad."

When I finally called it quits with my first husband, after almost 20 years together (we also met young, as students), he'd been consistently "nice" to me for so long that I'd almost forgotten how "bad" things could be.

It just boiled down to the fact that I could not summon a shred of enthusiasm at the prospect of a shared future with him. At the same time, I could not bear the idea of hurting him in any way and worried that he literally might not survive without me. It was a terrifying no-win situation that drove me crazy for some time, as I know you will understand.

I really do understand your predicament.

I suppose thinking about it logically, if you've been used to a fairly crap situation all your life, and you now have misgivings that won't go away, what weight do you give those misgivings? You'd think you'd just accept the usual crap if it's all you've ever known. And yet something in you is telling you not to. I'd say that tiny impulse, which you try to smother, is worth paying attention to. It doesn't just come out of nowhere, however much you want to blame it on your own silly selfish stupidity (or whatever other ways you choose to undermine your own gut instinct).

OP, you’re saying he isn’t controlling any more. But this is the man who told you, when you came back from a trip without him, that you’d gained weight and were now unattractive “but he still loves you.” Sounds to me like this is a “subtle” way to control you by knocking your confidence so perhaps you won’t go out/talk to people/chat to other men as much? That’s my reading of it. Either way, I don’t think I could be with someone who said something like that to me.

I’m allowed to go out, do things on my own...

WOW

Read this back to yourself @Cantdecideaway...

And have you actually done the sums? Do you have a realistic overview of your joint finances? Because you'd be entitled to at least half. At least!

Do this and talk to an experienced family solicitor. You may be pleasantly surprised about your options.

And ultimately, even if you have to accept a lower standard of living, you'll still be better off in the long term. You cannot put a price on being free from coercive control and all the other sh÷t you are currently putting up with.

I’m allowed to go out, do things on my own...

That's not something special that your husband has granted you...that's standard for a fully-functioning adult female of 35! It isn't something that your husband should have EVER had any control over!

You go on to say that doing these things is now 'tainted by guilt'...that's so sad. Imagine a life where you can do these things with complete happiness and joy, knowing that no one is going to spoil them with their unexpressed judgement. Not saying anything/anything positive IS saying something, it's saying 'I don't care what you do'...it's incredibly passive aggressive.

Telling your wife of nearly 20 years that she's unattractive to you...I would leave just for that. What a fucking bastard he really is.

Yes, I’ve done the sums. We have no assets or savings, and I earn slightly more than him. I’d be eligible for some UC on my own, and he’d have to pay about £300 in child support, on a custody arrangement I’d think likely. It would mean we’d end up with a tiny amount spare each month (tiny) but we could cover our cost of living.

I’ve read other posts about controlling partners though and my husband doesn’t seem nearly as bad. He definitely used to be.

Just to get some perspective
He used to:
Forbid me from talking to other men
Forbid me from male friendships
Forbid me from going out (drinking/parties)
Forbid me from time on my own eg in another room of the house
Forbid me from going to bed at a different time to him
Forbid me from discussing anything of my own eg work, friendships, that didn’t centre on him.
Continually monitor my communications on my phone and try and “catch me out” by creeping up on me to see what I was doing, often in the pretence of coming for a hug or something.

Now:
He is fine for me to go out whenever and wherever I want, although he is a bit irritable if I come in really drunk (this would be eg once every 3 or 4 months)
He is fine for me to go and do hobbies on my own or with my son, although he does always seem a bit quiet when I get home (but I could be overthinking this as I still feel guilty)
I have a male friend (this is most definitely platonic!) and he tolerates my friendship of him, he knows him also, and he’s definitely not happy about it but he does tolerate it.
He acts happy for me when things go well in my life (it doesn’t seem entirely genuine but he’s not a demonstrative kind of guy about lots of things)

He tries to actively encourage me to go to various groups/hobbies but I’ve noticed he is far more encouraging about ones where either he knows people there, or where they are women’s groups rather than mixed

I don’t know, he seems like a fairly reasonable guy now. It’s been about 6 months since he’s made these changes. I don’t know if I’m judging him by who he used to be rather than who he seems to be now.

And a lot of the way things are now seems to be the way things tend to be in long term relationships, a kind of humdrum routine comfortable norm rather than any kind of abuse or horrific behaviour.

Which perhaps isn’t what people definitely aim for but is something that could be settled for in the interest of a stable family home.

I’d have no interest whatsoever in staying once my son reaches adulthood. But I work with kids who’ve been traumatised, in some cases by divorce, and I do see the upheaval and distress it brings even in the most well handled cases.

@Alcemeg I completely identify with what you said about not seeing any excitement in a shared future. But one of the things I’m afraid of is, that all the nice men are taken!!! I guess, I know I’m relatively young, but surely any single man in his 30s/40s is either some other woman’s reject or is single for a reason? I know it’s about being happy on my own rather than immediately looking for another man - but I don’t want to be single forever, for sure.

Also, my in laws took me in aged 17 when I left home. We don’t always see eye to eye but I do care about them a lot, and they have done a lot for me. I’d miss them if we weren’t involved any more, and having heard how they feel about their other son’s ex wife, I don’t think they’d want much more to do with me. They’re quite old fashioned and don’t agree with divorce.

I guess my point is. He has seen a therapist for over a year now. He has been able to discuss and act quite genuinely remorseful for his past behaviour and I do see that he understands now how awful it was.

He has also asked, if we are to move forward with our relationship, for me to draw a line in the sand, forgive his past behaviour and judge him, moving forward, only on his current behaviour. So my point is, should I do that and forget his past behaviour. Because his current behaviour, whilst not superb, is perhaps just a very insecure man who’s just had all his “crutches” removed all in one go and is trying desperately to find a way to feel comfortable with things.

I'm sorry to say, OP, that in your semi-triumphant "Now" list your husband still sounds like a bit of a weirdo! 😁

And no, all the good men are NOT taken. No wonder you are scared of divorce, if you think that being divorced makes you "someone's reject" or "single for a reason" -- you really need to let go of that kind of thinking. I've no idea what the statistics are, but mid to late 30s seems to be the point when people who married way too young (or with other kinds of problems) wake up and notice that they want their life to take a different direction. It's a perfectly normal step of growth, although of course it feels like anything but that at the time.

It's a pity his parents are so blinkered and let that get in the way of relationships they might otherwise have cherished. Their loss. You could think about giving them a parting gift on the basis that you might be cut out of their lives and want to show your appreciation.

You said in your earlier post that you've read many relationship threads on mumsnet, so you must know how children can be deeply traumatised by parents staying together. It sounds as though your son is dropping as many hints as he can...!

@Cantdecideaway

I guess my point is. He has seen a therapist for over a year now. He has been able to discuss and act quite genuinely remorseful for his past behaviour and I do see that he understands now how awful it was.

He has also asked, if we are to move forward with our relationship, for me to draw a line in the sand, forgive his past behaviour and judge him, moving forward, only on his current behaviour. So my point is, should I do that and forget his past behaviour. Because his current behaviour, whilst not superb, is perhaps just a very insecure man who’s just had all his “crutches” removed all in one go and is trying desperately to find a way to feel comfortable with things.

I wonder if you ever read this thread? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4211900-does-love-come-back-what-do-i-do?pg=1

and the continuation thread here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4266232-Bastard-bingo-around-the-campfire?messages=100&pg=1

You might find it helpful... I can see a few overlaps! 😉
x

You’re very patient, @Alcemeg. I’ll have a look at those threads and let you know my thoughts. Thanks as always

I hope you find those threads useful. Sometimes it's easier to empathize with someone else's position than to show ourselves mercy, and I have a feeling you will be able to relate to that OP's situation in many ways! So I hope that if you find yourself mentally egging her on as you're reading it, you might also take note of what's relevant to your own circumstances.

Hi @Alcemeg - I can see you were just as helpful and kind on that thread too. Thanks for pointing them out to me. I can see the crossovers (although definitely no anger or violence here and I don’t think nearly as much malevolence - and no infidelity either!).

Just when I think my mind is made up, I start doubting myself all over again. We’ve had a nice evening today…

a kind of humdrum routine comfortable norm rather than any kind of abuse or horrific behaviour.

If you continue to raise your son in a household with this dynamic then this is his benchmark for relationships. Don't you want more from him?

Couples can be excited about their lives, have lots of laughter everyday together, be proud of each other without jealousy, not have a history of abuse...

That should be his benchmark.

And he can see his mum being independent, strong and not weighed down in a relationship built on past abuse and now simply tolerated and humdrum.

Leave for you and for him.

OP, only when you're thinking/ saying "I go out with friends", "I have male friends", "I get drunk every 3-4 months", "I go to my hobbies", without reference (in your words or thoughts) to whether he allows it, or is fine with it, or gets a bit sulky about it, will you know what it's like not to be in a controlling relationship.
The guilt is entirely to be expected, but how about if you try to consider it a useless emotion when it comes to you making your own decisions? Guilt tells us we've done something wrong, and you're not doing ANYTHING wrong. You aren't responsible for your husband acting sulky or grumpy, he is. When you feel guilty, try and notice it, then say "Oh hi guilt, thanks for your opinion but I don't agree."
YOU get to decide if you can get over how he acted in the past. YOU get to decide if you will or can draw a line under it. You don't have to do anything he asks, at this point.

Oh wow @Grimsknee - that’s shifted my perspective a bit, too. I don’t know if I can draw a line under it, because I guess at the moment I don’t know if it will last. If he’s genuinely made lasting changes then I think that’s different to him just acting nice for a bit…but only time will tell and I don’t know whether it’s worth the time!!

Hang on - so he’s been better for 6 months, but this is some one you got together with when you were 16. I wouldn’t say being acceptable for 6 months outweighs the previous 18.5 years if was awful during that time (and you still feel the guilt regardless).

Your experience as a young person have been skewed by your dad’s behaviour and meant perhaps that you have put up with more than many would tolerate. Have you ever had counselling/ therapy yourself? There might be quite a lot to talk about…

@Cantdecideaway

Hi *@Alcemeg* - I can see you were just as helpful and kind on that thread too. Thanks for pointing them out to me. I can see the crossovers (although definitely no anger or violence here and I don’t think nearly as much malevolence - and no infidelity either!).

Just when I think my mind is made up, I start doubting myself all over again. We’ve had a nice evening today…

The overlaps with the threads I shared yesterday are more to do with judging your husband on how he acts rather than who he is, and feeling confused by that because your gut is telling you that the way he's acting is fake.

Keeping a kind of running score, where anger / violence / malevolence are the trump cards and anything else doesn't really count, is not helpful. It's too easy to get into feeling so grateful that someone is no longer being such an arsehole that we feel the least we can do is stick with them and hope for the best, especially if they're not actually hitting us. (the damage is much more subtle)

The focus shouldn't really be on how your husband is acting. It should be on how you feel. You're glad that your husband has been much nicer or should I say, acting much nicer! for 6 months, but that's beside the point. When were you last happy? Have you ever managed to sustain happiness for 6 months (by "happiness" I mean truly enjoying his company, feeling relaxed and confident, participating in life without shame)? That's the kind of 6 months that would make a difference to what you should do.

I'm pretty sure you have no idea what it feels like to be in a more normal, balanced relationship, which is why you don't know what you're missing. And I'm not saying you'd go straight from this into a wonderful relationship... Of course, you might be lucky; but finding out how to set the bar higher takes practice when we have no real experience of a mutually loving and respectful relationship (and the media/movie industry don't help educate us in this, because dramas are created in dysfunctional worlds). I made a few "mistakes" after my divorce -- except that I don't think of them as mistakes, just important steps on a sharp learning curve on my way up to the happiness I have now.

The home environment I "enjoyed" when my first husband was being "lovely" to me... if you put me back in it now, I'd last 5 minutes before running for the door, because I expect a much higher quality of life (one that I could simply not have imagined back then). The PPs above are right, yours sounds ... well, let's just say suboptimal 😉

I was struck by you saying "You're very patient, Alcemeg" in one of your posts yesterday. Why would I be cross with you?
Constantly expecting to be irritating someone was part of my default setting after my first marriage, and I wonder if it's become yours.

I'm pretty sure you have no idea what it feels like to be in a more normal, balanced relationship, which is why you don't know what you're missing

Absolutely.

For me, I finally summoned up the courage to leave was when I no longer felt safe with him. I don't mean physically, but over time it became clear to me that he no longer had my back.