Ds(11) in a manipulative relationship. What to do?

[HandsInHair]

My DS is 11 and skipped a year, meaning his classmates are mostly 12.
He is a sensitive and introverted boy. His dad and I recently got divorced and I moved out of the family home with his dsisters.
Since the beginning of may he has had a friendship with a girl in class that has very quickly turned very intense. They don't speak in person, it is all via text messages.
In theory, no problem, very cute. What is a problem is the intensity and the manipulation. All of a sudden my son is hurting himself, talking about suicide, not eating and wearing big jumpers in a heatwave.
I read their message conversation and it reads as if all thiese things are in reaction to her.
She is hurting herself, so he does too. She won't eat, so he doesn't either, etc. He packages it as if he are tying to 'help' her. As in, he won't eat until she does..
I know that there have been other incidents with other kids in their class. I contacted the mum of another boy who was best friends with her until she suddenly stopped and started a message group to bully the boy.
She is only a child so I am pretty sure she is not purposely trying to be manipulative, but I do believe she is troubled. And it is admirable my DS wants to help her. The trouble is thay he is also learning these manipulative behaviours. And he is hurting himself!

I am not sure what to do now. The school was involved in the previous incident(s). Do I involve them again? Do I invite her around?
I don't think forbidding contact is the way to go...

I have already called her parents to alert them to the suicide speak. In her messages she also says her father hurts her and she doesn't feel comfotable with him sexually. I have no idea what to do with that information.

Help me wise mumsnetters!!

If you haven’t already, please report the self-harming AND the emotionally abusive relationship (you mention you hadn’t told the school about the “relationship”). Your DS seriously needs to see a child psychologist. I think you should move him to a new school in a different area too. This girl is obviously unwell, but it’s terrifying that’s she’s manipulating your DS into cutting and developing an eating disorder. The school’s safeguarding lead and outside agencies need to investigate the girl and her home life.

@Summerfun54321

Seeing the manipulation I am not sure I 100% believe that what she is saying about her dad is true

It’s not for you to believe her, just to inform the school so they can decide what to do next. I can’t imagine fabricating abuse is something many primary age girls do, there must be something in it.

Sometimes what looks like manipulation is actually desperation.

It's not at all easy to reveal that one has been abused.

Though there are indeed fantasists, and also people who lie about abuse in order to get someone into trouble, there are far more people on the receiving end of abuse who feel they can't tell anyone. Or tell someone and are then ignored/branded as liars etc.

I mean jeez you're literally desperate not to actually do anything here aren't you. I'm waiting, I don't know who, I can't, what about my DS. These are primary school children by your account and yet you seem unfazed by a disclosure of sexual abuse, refuse to take your child's phone or actually take any action that isn't calling the parents. Do you think your ineffectual parenting may have contributed to your DS finding himself in this situation? Most parents would have stamped this out long before

This vitriol is patently unfair to the OP. The OP is facing a potentially life-changing situation that not only affects her child but others also. There comes a huge amount of emotions to be sorted through, some very hard decisions and it is certainly not a situation that many parents have been through. Cut her some slack and give a bit more support.

@blackcat86

I mean jeez you're literally desperate not to actually do anything here aren't you. I'm waiting, I don't know who, I can't, what about my DS. These are primary school children by your account and yet you seem unfazed by a disclosure of sexual abuse, refuse to take your child's phone or actually take any action that isn't calling the parents. Do you think your ineffectual parenting may have contributed to your DS finding himself in this situation? Most parents would have stamped this out long before

Well done on your gold star parenting and your perfect DC.

DS's psych has advised against removing the phone so I will follow her professional advice.

As per her advice, I will have another conversation with him about what is appropriate / inappropriate behaviour towards others and towards himself.

Thank you for your perspectives. Summer holidays are starting soon and he is kocking it off with 4 phone free days in a sport he loves.

He would be the only child in his class without a phone.

This doesn't matter in comparison to the severity of what's going on though.

And all those platforms are available via the internet too...

Good job you can monitor his internet usage, then. I think I would sit in the same room. That way he can do whatever else you're happy with him doing.

I will speak to his DF about it as taking away the phone would also impact their relationship. I am not always on my phone to spot when he is trying to call. The relationship with his DF is the main cause of his own insecurities...So it really isn't as simple as it seems.

You could keep his phone with yours, in your handbag or whatever, so his dad won't be able to get through any less.

Professional involvement will be a big help I think, as I can imagine that it is frightening for you to consider doing anything that might upset him.

I hope his psychologist appointment goes well. x

Well done @HandsInHair . Keep following professional's advice as long as it feels right to you- if you're not happy with one you can always try another.

Did your DS speak to the psychologist much? What did he think of them?

As per her advice, I will have another conversation with him about what is appropriate / inappropriate behaviour towards others and towards himself.

But he's shown he can't self regulate in the face of someone messaging him very traumatic and intense stuff a which is totally normal of him as he's 11.

So this psychologist has said not to stop facilitating contact between your 11 year old son and the girl?

Seeing the manipulation I am not sure I 100% believe that what she is saying about her dad is true

I was the overlooked kid that was being sexually abuse, the person who knew what this man was doing "didn't like to say anything" so just didn't and left him to it. Over time my mental health crashed and I attempted suicide, still she "didn't like to say anything", the suicide attempt was proof to my family that I wasn't mentally "right" so not to be believed anyway, at 41 my life is still in shreds because of the abuse, I have depression and PTSD, still medicated.

When the man died it was revealed he had abused his sisters, his daughters, me and then his grandkids, various people knew but "didn't like to say" three generations wrecked mentally, emotionally and physically because someone or other didn't want to have the uncomfortable conversation with the authorities about what this man was doing. They placed they own comfort above sexually abused kids. Think on that OP, and think what kind of person you want to be remembered as.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

To be honest, I am still not convinced taking away the phone or blocking the contact is the best way forward. there are so many ways for them to be in touch. At least now I can monitor it. If they start communicating through channels I am not aware of, I won't know.

He's eleven years old, it's your job as a parent to be aware of all communication channels he can use!!

From the research I have done and the helpline I spoke to, it is important he knows that he is not being punished.

Then make it clear to him whatever happens isn't a punishment, it's an exercise in parental love and protection. That you're keeping him safe not keeping him punished.

He would be the only child in his class without a phone.

So? He has shown to you that he cannot cope emotionally with the responsibility of having his own phone, so you as a parent need to take away the phone until you've both worked on how he can self regulate better.

You're shirking rather than stepping up. It doesn't matter if he hates you for a week or two, it matters that he is safe and that you start emotionally untangling him from this girl. The poor girl is clearly having a terrible time too but there's nothing you can do other than report to all relevant authorities (which hopefully you've done now) and focus on getting your son well again.

Reading your posts I have to keep reminding myself he is eleven - you're acting as if he's a 15 year old flight risk who keeps sneaking out with a bong to see a girl and you're scared of pushing him into her arms.

He's an eleven year old kid who has been allowed to deal with emotions and situations far, far too big for his age. Take that responsibility away from him and also say sorry that you didn't step in sooner. You'll probably find he is relieved in a few weeks, the poor kid must have been so stressed and anxious and perhaps thought it can't be that bad if I'm still allowed to speak to her.

This

Your stance is extremely worrying. I feel so sorry for your son tbh. He needs a parent, not someone whose too afraid to step up and protect him. You're far too concerned with protecting his ego than his mental health

You and his father are letting your child down very badly here. He is a little boy, not a man. He has had trauma in his life as a direct result of you and his father splitting up, which is continuing as a result of his father working away a lot. You have allowed an inappropriate ‘relationship’ develop which he is far too young to cope with emotionally, as events and his behaviour has shown. You absolutely do need to take back control. The friendship with this girl needs to stop. It is unhealthy for both of them. Whatever this ‘psychologist’ had told you, they are giving you poor advice. He should be able to have a phone to contact his father, but that is all. I work with 11 year olds -the vast majority do not have phones despite what you’re saying. And even if they did, the way he is communicating with her is enough to insist he no longer has access to it without your direct supervision, ie to speak to his father. He may sulk, have a tantrum, call you the worst mother possible, but you are in charge!
I hate to say this, but being so passive is only going to end up in something awful happening to your son, his friend or both.

@me4real

Well done *@HandsInHair* . Keep following professional's advice as long as it feels right to you- if you're not happy with one you can always try another.

Did your DS speak to the psychologist much? What did he think of them?

He has had 1 appointment so far and another scheduled for tomorrow so early days. He seems to have opened up to her about the school pressure he feels.

@Dontbeme

Seeing the manipulation I am not sure I 100% believe that what she is saying about her dad is true

I was the overlooked kid that was being sexually abuse, the person who knew what this man was doing "didn't like to say anything" so just didn't and left him to it. Over time my mental health crashed and I attempted suicide, still she "didn't like to say anything", the suicide attempt was proof to my family that I wasn't mentally "right" so not to be believed anyway, at 41 my life is still in shreds because of the abuse, I have depression and PTSD, still medicated.

When the man died it was revealed he had abused his sisters, his daughters, me and then his grandkids, various people knew but "didn't like to say" three generations wrecked mentally, emotionally and physically because someone or other didn't want to have the uncomfortable conversation with the authorities about what this man was doing. They placed they own comfort above sexually abused kids. Think on that OP, and think what kind of person you want to be remembered as.

I am sorry you went through that Dontbeme. I have reported the potential abuse to the school. I hope they deal with this wel so this girl get the right support.

Remove his phone. He's 11.

My step mum took my brothers phone off him at 13 after he got in some deep deep shit. Of course he was furious. She was going to give it back eventually, but he became happier, more well behaved, more curious, did better at school, did loads of sport. She offered it back after a year... and he said no. He didn't have a phone until he was 16.

Did him a world of good.

@Dontbeme

Seeing the manipulation I am not sure I 100% believe that what she is saying about her dad is true

I was the overlooked kid that was being sexually abuse, the person who knew what this man was doing "didn't like to say anything" so just didn't and left him to it. Over time my mental health crashed and I attempted suicide, still she "didn't like to say anything", the suicide attempt was proof to my family that I wasn't mentally "right" so not to be believed anyway, at 41 my life is still in shreds because of the abuse, I have depression and PTSD, still medicated.

When the man died it was revealed he had abused his sisters, his daughters, me and then his grandkids, various people knew but "didn't like to say" three generations wrecked mentally, emotionally and physically because someone or other didn't want to have the uncomfortable conversation with the authorities about what this man was doing. They placed they own comfort above sexually abused kids. Think on that OP, and think what kind of person you want to be remembered as.

I hope everyone on the thread reads what you have written.

In so many cases of abuse, when the abuse finally comes to light, it is obvious that some people knew about it. Sometimes many people, sometimes some people, almost always somebody. Knew about it or, at the very least, suspected. This "I don't want to say", "I didn't want to cause trouble", "I didn't want to say anything unless i was mistaken" crap, it ruins lives. While adults are telling themselves this, a child's life is in shreds. And, as you say, that carries on into adult life.

I was abused in our home. Not sexually but emotionally and psychologically, out of habit It was all normalized. My dad was the worse perpetrator but my mother enabled him over and over. "I didn't want him to get into trouble" she says now. "Telling people would have been like telling tales." (Fgs, as if this were just a trivial problem between kids in the school playground!) . "He was a nice man really", "He had had a difficult childhood", etc etc etc.

My parents like many abusive people could be very charming outside the family home. Having said that, I don't believe that nobody suspected anything. I was depressed for years, teachers mentioned on school reports how unhappy I seemed, but they didn't do anything. My father was a terrible shouter and ranter, he would go on for hours every evening: we lived in a semi-detached house, there's no way the immediate neighbours couldn't have heard. And so on.

My own experience taught me that a lot of adults are basically cowards. They don't want to make a fuss. They'd rather keep up all their illusions and tell themselves that a certain family must be okay because they have nice curtains or because the father has a white-collar job or because the mother is a good neighbour who helps out at jumble sales. Or whatever. The excuses these people make to themselves are endless.

I'm so sorry.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

As per her advice, I will have another conversation with him about what is appropriate / inappropriate behaviour towards others and towards himself.

But he's shown he can't self regulate in the face of someone messaging him very traumatic and intense stuff a which is totally normal of him as he's 11.

So this psychologist has said not to stop facilitating contact between your 11 year old son and the girl?

She has said that removing his phone could seriously backfire. That he is just liekly to find other ways to contact her. He has access to the internet at school, at his friends', through other people's phones. If he really wants to message her, he will. Except then I won't know about it.

Her advice was to teach him about what is appropriate and what isn't.

Her advice was to teach him about what is appropriate and what isn't.

Out of curiosity, what sort of thing OP? If you feel able to share.

Where are you in the world?

I am glad to have hom back with me in any case. He wasn't with me for 2 weeks; a week on a school trip and a week with his dad.

The 2 weeks before that the conversation between them was ok. It is only in the last week that it got bad, which I only discovered yesterday.

You were right about needing to take action on the abuse allegation and I have done so. I hope for her that it isn't true but that she gets help either way.

As for their conversations and the phone, I am going to try the approach the psychologist had advised. Not because I am worried about anyone's ego or am a passive parent, but because I also believe forbidding contact can backfire.

Changing schools is not in his best interest. This school is specialised in the support he needs. He moved to his school only 2 years ago. He has settled there with some good friends and 2 of his best friends from his previous school are joining him next year.

I have invited a friend of his over tomorrow so he has something to look forward to.

Thank you all, especially those of you who have given advice without the vitriol and agression. I am going to get some sleep now.

Jesus Christ why is an 11yr old in a relationship at all???????

Her advice was to teach him about what is appropriate and what isn't.

I would suggest that telling him he can no longer speak to her due to it causing him anxiety, stress and upset would be a good way to teach him what is appropriate and what isn't.

Continuing to facilitate their speaking by allowing your eleven year old to have a phone is teaching him that this relationship must be on some level appropriate because his mum isn't banning it.

Again, he's eleven.

Would you consider counselling for yourself once you’ve got on top of this awful situation? It sounds like you were overwhelmed by what appears to be a relatively straightforward, urgent and extremely serious situation (which has led to your son being left to deal with this alone for some time).

None of us are perfect parents, but most of us would have come down like a ton of bricks pretty much instantly in a situation as serious as this.

Maybe it would be good to take advice from a professional re your own behaviour to try to be the best you can be for your DS in the future.

Yes it can seriously backfire for an older child (15/16) but now way for an 11 year old who should have appropriate adult supervision.

Yes he would maybe sneak on the schools internet or borrow his friends phone and contact her but it's a lot of effort.

I'm not suggesting 'punishing' him and I wouldn't necessarily be outwardly saying he couldn't talk to her. What I would be doing is making it very hard for him to do so by taking away his phone. I wouldn't even mention her. My hope would be that it fizzles out as he will soon get tired of having to log in and out of school pcs and ask his friends for their phones. Give him enough distractions and things to do and that toxic relationship between them will soon be over