Friend confessed she physically abuses husband

[whatamess101]

Looking for some advice on how to deal with this situation. A close friend has a very volatile relationship with her husband. They've always argued a lot (been together about 15 years) and been on and off until they had children. She struggles through life and has mental health problems that she hasn't addressed. I found out from her recently that she hits her husband when they argue but he doesn't retaliate. Last night she text me that they had a physical fight (I don't know if it was two way) in front of their children.

She's always been a very good friend to me and is always kind and caring to other people. I want to help her but I find this behaviour shocking and unacceptable. She wants me to make her feel better, that's it's normal and she's not in the wrong but I can't do that. I know that he pushes her to her limits emotionally and suspect he gaslights her. I just don't know how to help her and I'm really worried about her children witnessing violence like this. Any advice?

@CandyLeBonBon
Very sorry you experienced that in your past. I would agree that hitting only once isn’t ever abuse. Abuse is not a one off slap when under extreme pressure. I haven’t been clear about that in my posts at all, and apologise. I was always thinking in terms of repeated hitting but did not express that well. Sorry for causing you any distress.

@whatamess101

Thank you, your replies are really helpful in getting my head around it all. I don't believe she would hurt the kids, she's really calm and always puts them first. All her anger seems to be directed at her husband, I've never known her to get angry in any other situation. But witnessing domestic violence is child abuse isn't it so I can't sit with this information and not do anything. I will contact social services.

@Umberellatheweatha this is how she describes it, he makes her feel like she's going crazy and gets up into her personal space until she can't cope. I feel like she's quite vulnerable. It's a horrible situation.

But is he actually doing that, or has she created that excuse to justify her behaviour. People who are violent to their partners don't generally show that side of them to the outside world. Where she might seem calm whilst with you (could all be an act), and the truth could be she's horrible full stop when outside eyes aren't watching. I think the only think to do is contact social services

To equate typical man on woman physical abuse with what OP described is really dangerous in my mind, it goes to show the deep lack of understanding of the dynamics of abuse. Unless you've been in an abusive relationship, or have seen the type of injuries caused, it's easy to be binary about these things. It's like equating a stubbed toe to a broken bone. People have limits, and anyone can be pushed to the point of lashing out - this is so very different to someone who uses physical force to control someone else. Abuse isn't about broken bones, black eyes etc its about control. Bones heal, so do eyes - the same cannot be said of being systematically destroyed mentally, deprived of support and having every part of your life controlled.

That said, regardless of who is abusing whom the children must be protected from this. OP pls call social services and talk this through with them so they can intervene and help protect the children.

@PlanDeRaccordement I was more referring to op who insist that all violence is equal.

Abuse is about control and power. Abusive men use 'she provoked me' to disguise their controlling, dominating, divisive and coercive tactics. It's often (although not always, of course) a smoke screen. And yes, of course it can apply to women.

I was once kicked down the stairs because I woke him up from the sofa to come to bed. Because I thought he might be more comfortable in bed.

I honestly do not believe that me lashing out whilst being physical and verbally intimidated means that I deserve exactly the same abusive label. Help yes, support to work out how to manage years of trauma to recognise potential red flags and have the confidence and self esteem to walk away, yes.

I just feel so depressed that so many people thinks it's always a blanket/equal either/or situation.

Contacting and reporting to SS is the best route. Rarely is it a strict binary of 100% abuser to 100% victim. It’s more nuanced and there is no way we can identify on this thread who is predominantly a victim, and who predominately does the abuse, because OP only has one side of the story and hasn’t witnessed any incidents herself. Too, the experiences we’ve shared are snapshots of several very different ways either friend or friends partners relationship could be similar to, but there is no way of knowing exactly which toxic dynamic is actually happening.

All we know is that abuse is happening between OPs friend and friends partner. It needs to be investigated by the authorities even if there were no children in the home, but it’s more urgent especially since there are children in the home. And finally, it needs to be stopped because these relationships do not get better, they get worse if left alone. Even if it means divorce and one of the two ends up with a DV conviction.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@EarringsandLipstick
Thank you for kindness. I did end up calling police and getting away. But it took him choking me unconscious in the kitchen for dropping a pan I was washing to make me brave enough to call police. They took one look at my neck and he was arrested, taken to station in handcuffs. The rest is a long story, but I’m good now and have the kindest DH. So all ended well.[/quote]
God Almighty. That's hard to even read, not to imagine experiencing it. 😢

I'm so glad you found happiness & have a lovely partner now.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Contacting and reporting to SS is the best route. Rarely is it a strict binary of 100% abuser to 100% victim. It’s more nuanced and there is no way we can identify on this thread who is predominantly a victim, and who predominately does the abuse, because OP only has one side of the story and hasn’t witnessed any incidents herself. Too, the experiences we’ve shared are snapshots of several very different ways either friend or friends partners relationship could be similar to, but there is no way of knowing exactly which toxic dynamic is actually happening.

All we know is that abuse is happening between OPs friend and friends partner. It needs to be investigated by the authorities even if there were no children in the home, but it’s more urgent especially since there are children in the home. And finally, it needs to be stopped because these relationships do not get better, they get worse if left alone. Even if it means divorce and one of the two ends up with a DV conviction.

Exactly.

@Pinkyxx

Excellent post

@PlanDeRaccordement

I think this blanket statement of "if you hit someone then you are the abuser" is a dangerous attitude to have. It will allow so many people to get away with emotional abuse, and allow them to push them to their limits and if that person loses control for a second and lashes out because they are being tormented, they emotional abuser will then have something else to hold over their victim

I don’t agree. If you hit your partner, you are an abuser. That’s a fact you cannot escape. This doesn’t mean your partner then “gets away” with any abuse they may do towards you- verbal, emotional. Domestic violence is very often a two way thing with partners abusing each other and potentially any children as well. There is not always a binary of “the victim” and “the abuser”.

And escalating abuse...as in retaliating against verbal/emotional abuse with physical domestic violence is not technically reactive abuse because it is an escalation of abuse rather than abuse done in self- defence.

So while you may have been a victim of emotional abuse, you were also concurrently an abuser of physical domestic violence.

I have read your more recent posts. I am sorry that you experienced this horror. However, generally women who are victims of physical domestic violence do not retaliate similarly. It is most likely to be women who are ground down by psychological torture, who have their kids used as humans shields and a weapon in court, who lose friends and families and identities in far less obvious ways. If you are frequently or sporadically having the shit kicked out of you you don’t tend to get physical with someone that is the perpetrator.

This sort of attitude is exactly why so many abusers get away with what they do. They break their victims and any reaction is better than none because then the shoe is in the other foot. This has only happened because they are abusive. It is not a chosen course of action it is normally done in total fear and desperation.

Reactive abuse is actually a term that most therapists and domestic violence experts disagree with as it seeks to apportion blame to someone who has been painted into a corner and is often fighting for their sanity and their very lives it to mention their children
This sort of narrative is feeding exactly into the hands of (mostly) abusive men.
Why do you think that in 2021 there are no concurrent mainstream DAPP programmes for women to participate in or be referred to? There aren’t any that I am aware of.

Also the new DA Bill recognises how damaging emotional abuse and post separation abuse is and that Family Courts as well as all Agencies involved need to reset their thinking.

No wonder so many women just stay
Leaving in any event is only the beginning

@Pinkyxx

To equate typical man on woman physical abuse with what OP described is really dangerous in my mind, it goes to show the deep lack of understanding of the dynamics of abuse. Unless you've been in an abusive relationship, or have seen the type of injuries caused, it's easy to be binary about these things. It's like equating a stubbed toe to a broken bone. People have limits, and anyone can be pushed to the point of lashing out - this is so very different to someone who uses physical force to control someone else. Abuse isn't about broken bones, black eyes etc its about control. Bones heal, so do eyes - the same cannot be said of being systematically destroyed mentally, deprived of support and having every part of your life controlled.

That said, regardless of who is abusing whom the children must be protected from this. OP pls call social services and talk this through with them so they can intervene and help protect the children.

This is exactly the issue Some scars never heal. Some memories never fade.

Every professional involved in the abuse spectrum should read this post bad commit to memory and heart.

It would literally save lives

I did explain upthread. In the abusive relationship I was in, when I was very young, I was a victim of physical violence. The climate of violence in our home was like feeling the weather. I could sense when he was in a bad mood and that at some point, I’d mis-step and he’d beat me. It builds up, the tension in the air, and eventually I just want the inevitable over with because afterwards there is always a calm period...like after a thunderstorm has passed. So, I’d deliberately do a little act of rebellion. Say something bad or mean to him, just so that the beating I knew and could feel was coming, would get over and done with. But did I want physical violence even though I knowingly provoked it? No. It was going to happen anyway. I was merely having a tiny bit of control over when he would explode and I’d have to endure. And honestly, if I let it build and build and build, the beating would be that much worse. I had to get it out of his system when it would just cause a bit of bruising/minor injuries. If I let it build too much, i was genuinely afraid I’d end up seriously injured or dead. So I hope that explains to you how you can provoke an abuser to violence and still be a victim of that violence

Your experience is appalling and terrible. You know your situation intimately and deeply.

And it is in no way the situation I am talking about. You did not 'provoke' a man to violence. He was going to hit you anyway. Nothing you could do could stop that. All you did was try to exert control by speeding up when it would happen, and as you say, try to protect yourself by lessening the intensity of that violence. . You weren't using him hitting you to control him by making him think he was violent/ crazy/ you could get the kids taken off him if he left.

I am talking about people who essentially psychologically torture their partners over a long period of time and when their victim is essentially deranged by that and snaps, use the fact they have lashed out violently to strengthen their grip over their victim.

That is very, very different from your own awful experience.

Good luck OP 💐

It’s a horrible situation to be in if she had any sense she’d have kept that info to herself.

if she had any sense she’d have kept that info to herself

I wonder. Seeing as how she has told OP, she recognises there is a serious issue. She is at the point of opening up. If OP is still reading, I know you haven't said what your plan is but I hope you can keep contact open with your friend, regardless of the specifics of the situation.

@Cleverpolly3
However, generally women who are victims of physical domestic violence do not retaliate similarly.

Yes agree. I never retaliated similarly as in do physical violence to match his physical violence. I was too afraid. What I did do was say things that on the face were emotional and verbal abuse. It was part of the toxic cycle I was trapped in. For some reason I felt more in control if I could when sensing he was working himself up to hit me just nudge him to get it over with. Because surprise beatings for no reason were somehow worse and more frightening to me? I was really mentally not right at the time.

This sort of narrative is feeding exactly into the hands of (mostly) abusive men.

Im sorry but have lost you here. What narrative are you referring to? I have written my real life experience. It’s not a narrative, so confused as to what you mean? Yes I agree it could be him predominately abusing her through coercive control and emotional/verbal abuse and she lashing out simply to try and stop the flow of toxic words to stay sane. Or it could be what I experienced where the one that is physical is predominately abusing and the verbal/emotional provocation is a survival mechanism. Or it could be something completely different.

There are many possibilities. We cannot apportion blame to either party on this thread as we are not there. Have only say 5 pieces of a 1000 piece puzzle. It would be wrong in my opinion for this thread to have agreed on a single possibility...it’s true to life what we’ve been discussing.

I had a temper growing up and used to lash out. This was what happened at school, when bullies would deliberately wind me up until I couldn’t cope anymore and would then hit them. (They were never really hurt.) It was always me who ended up in trouble, because I couldn’t put into words the way they were tormenting me.

No, that doesn’t justify my behaviour. But it wasn’t a case of me being an abuser; their whole strategy was about getting me into trouble by provoking me into lashing out.

My DSis did this to me at home, which she herself has long since admitted to doing.

Like the OP’s friend, I was vulnerable in that I was being sexually abused at home (so was my DSis). Did that mean that I was justified in lashing out? No, of course not. But I’ve seen the same pattern in my DD1’s (12) behaviour as well. (She and DD2 (9) are both adopted, so they’re both vulnerable.)

So I don’t agree that this is clearly a simple case of the OP’s friend being an abuser and her husband the victim. It could well be the case that he’s actively provoking her with mind games.

On a positive note, as an adult I don’t lash out anymore and have been able to process my anger during years of therapy. It sounds as if the OP’s friend would benefit from such help, and she needs to reach out for it, both for her own sake and for the sake of her DC.

Meantime, she does need to get out of the toxic relationship she’s in. (That’s what really matters here regardless of whether the friend is an abuser or a victim. It sounds far more complex than that.)

The hugely problematic thing is it's invisible. Even if you come to recognise it as abuse, you can't 'show' it to anyone and even someone sympathetic will struggle to see how bad it might be

Absolutely this. This is why this type of abuse can be so isolating, make women feel so alone. It doesn't help that we have a culture of 'men, what are they like!' which helps to normalise shit behaviour from men, so even if a woman is talking about what she is experiencing, people can fail to pick up on it, may even laugh at it, making the woman feel more isolated - maybe he's right, and I'm making a big deal out of nothing, expecting too much of him, just have to try harder.
Few people have any experience of the slow drip effect of someone slowly disintegrating you.

@Notthenever
I am talking about people who essentially psychologically torture their partners over a long period of time and when their victim is essentially deranged by that and snaps, use the fact they have lashed out violently to strengthen their grip over their victim. That is very, very different from your own awful experience.

Yes, I do agree with you that what you describe is a real possibility that OPs friend may be experiencing. The abuse you describe does happen as evidenced by yours and others posts.

I guess my experience is not offered to disagree with you, or anyone, or invalidate what you say in any way but only to offer another possibility as to what might be going on. Because we really can’t know exactly what is happening behind closed doors, can we?

Which is why the one thing we all agree on is that OP should report it to SS and have it investigated.

@Umberellatheweatha

Dont want to ok violence from anyone but I had never hit anyone in my life and yet I had an emotionally abusive partner whom I slapped twice during a 9 month period. They can really bring you to a point where you are so headworked that you lash out. And it is in defence. It's in defence of an emotional onslaught and intimidation and threat of them being in your personal space and bigger, stronger individuals - who hate you.

You say she has been a good friend to you and is nice to everyone else and that he gaslighting her so I would give the benefit of the doubt...to some extent. Direct her to womens aid. Focus on telling her that the relationship is toxic and it is not ok for the kids and that she should seek help to leave for them and for her mental health.

You dont have to tell her her behaviour is ok. Because it isnt. But suggest she take a hard look at herself and if she likes who she is becoming whilst with this person.

Abusers pour their poison into you. If they pour enough you can lose yourself.

Though, women can be abusers too. So i would observe her closer in future. It may be that she is even taking an ego stroke from being violent and asking you to tell her it's ok and she can do no wrong.

Completely agree with this.

@Snowpatrolling

How do you know he is emotionally abusive towards her? Did she tell you? Have you witnessed it personally? If she did I wouldn’t believe that straight off the bat. I would be reporting the violence myself tho absolutely, no man or woman deserve to be hit.

Wow so we automatically jump to accusing the woman of being a liar. Nice. Not hard to see why so many women don't report abuse and just put up and shut up.

There are worse things than getting punched or slapped a few times.

@CandyLeBonBon
Oh, glad it was more to OP and not me, because yes it’s not equal when it comes physical abuse because vast majority men do more harm compared to vast majority women. They’re just bigger and stronger on average. Of course repeated physical violence of women on men is also wrong and abuse, but can’t say the abuse is equal because it’s not.

Also yes it is depressing so many think it is a binary, either/or thing. I also think it depressing that some think they can determine through a computer screen the exact dynamic that is going on when even the OP has admitted she knows very little herself.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I’m disturbed at posters jumping to the conclusion that this guy is a victim pure and simple.

No one is jumping to that conclusion. The OPs friend is a self confessed husband beater. She admitted she hits her husband. That makes him a victim of domestic violence.

And if he's gaslighting her that makes her a victim of domestic abuse too. The situation sounds not as simple as some people are making out. It does however sound incredibly toxic. I would be trying to support my friend to leave personally.

It doesn't help that we have a culture of 'men, what are they like!' which helps to normalise shit behaviour from men,

God, yes! That so true. (And of course does a disservice to most men too)

My exH was financially abusive. When I tried to describe what I was going through, the common response was to laugh & respond with a similar story of their James / Padraic / whoever going on the lash or coming home with a wildly unsuitable barbecue. I could explain that despite having a full time job I sometimes hadn't money for food and felt desperate.

There are worse things than getting punched or slapped a few times.

I think I get the point you are making, but on its own, I can't support this.

Being punched or slapped a 'few times' (male or female) is unacceptable and wrong.

We can say that & still be able to contextualise the actions in an abusive relationship.

I guess my experience is not offered to disagree with you, or anyone, or invalidate what you say in any way but only to offer another possibility as to what might be going on. Because we really can’t know exactly what is happening behind closed doors, can we?

Yes I agree. I said in my first post that none of us know what is going on with OPs friend. I'm more responding to people on the thread who take the line that all people who hit are abusers full stop, and all hitting is equivalently bad. Its really not that simple.

How to help HER?

Wow! Fucking hell.

Fuck HER! Help her H and kids get her the fuck out of their lives!

Astonishing.

Mind you, my own mother and my sister rang woman’s aid to get support for themselves when I was in an abusive relationship.

This is NOT ok. She needs to leave them.