Friend confessed she physically abuses husband

[whatamess101]

Looking for some advice on how to deal with this situation. A close friend has a very volatile relationship with her husband. They've always argued a lot (been together about 15 years) and been on and off until they had children. She struggles through life and has mental health problems that she hasn't addressed. I found out from her recently that she hits her husband when they argue but he doesn't retaliate. Last night she text me that they had a physical fight (I don't know if it was two way) in front of their children.

She's always been a very good friend to me and is always kind and caring to other people. I want to help her but I find this behaviour shocking and unacceptable. She wants me to make her feel better, that's it's normal and she's not in the wrong but I can't do that. I know that he pushes her to her limits emotionally and suspect he gaslights her. I just don't know how to help her and I'm really worried about her children witnessing violence like this. Any advice?

*abuse of the mother

Also it is not as easy as just leaving
If you think that you need a reality check

@LemonPeonies

I was in an abusive relationship for 11 years and I never lost control of myself so much i hit him. I left him and made a new life for myself. There is no excuse for physical or any kind of abuse. Especially when there are kids involved you need to report it to protect them

I am quite amazed that you endured 11 years of abuse but fail to understand as or have never been exposed to the scenario that many other posters here have been through

And incidentally nobody is making excuses for it. It is inexcusable. More importantly the behaviour of someone who inflicted abuse on you to the extent you did precisely what they wanted you to do to them is ultimately what is really inexcusable.

OP your friend needs to leave her husband. It is an abusive marriage. Sometimes a marriage is long dead but two people try to salvage it because of the years, memories, children and families involved. It is not worth the emotional and mental torture.

I admit to hitting my husband several times after discovering his infidelities. I was angry, grieved, hurt and wanted to hurt him. The lies, deceit and drip feeding that followed made it all the worse. There is no excuse and I should have chosen to leave rather than stay and work through what was left of our marriage. Walking away is always the better option. I regret lashing out and not controlling my anger.

I don't believe she would hurt the kids, she's really calm and always puts them first. All her anger seems to be directed at her husband, I've never known her to get angry in any other situation. But witnessing domestic violence is child abuse isn't it

How can you in one sentence say she wouldn’t hurt her children but then go on to say that because of her actions she is abusing her children.

Who is to say it isn’t your friend who is doing the gas lighting and getting up in her husbands face. You only have her word for what happens before the violence

@Itwontstopraining

Op, re your question about whether you'd tell her - bear in mind that if you report anonymously SS would have to share enough of what they'd been told (eg that they'd had a phone call + the concern raised) that she'd guess it was you who had reported. I'm not saying that to put you off, just that it may be worth thinking about whether to tell her yourself (either before or after the call) as she's likely to know you've done it.

You can share what she's said about being gaslighted. I was a social worker for a family where the original concern was DV male perp as he could be heard shouting (report came from neighbours) While working with the family realised that the female partner held all the control and would threaten the male partner until he lost it (but not directed at her) We ended up protecting him as a vulnerable adult while also safeguarding the child.

Yes I actually know of a similar situation irl but the reverse (woman lashing out, man controlling, threatening, financially & emotionally abusive) and it turns out the bloke was taking secret videos and voice recordings of when she lost it so he could build up a case for full custody of the kids (he was secretly planning a divorce where she'd be left with hardly anything).

How do you know he is emotionally abusive towards her? Did she tell you? Have you witnessed it personally?
If she did I wouldn’t believe that straight off the bat.
I would be reporting the violence myself tho absolutely, no man or woman deserve to be hit.

I think this blanket statement of "if you hit someone then you are the abuser" is a dangerous attitude to have. It will allow so many people to get away with emotional abuse, and allow them to push them to their limits and if that person loses control for a second and lashes out because they are being tormented, they emotional abuser will then have something else to hold over their victim

I don’t agree. If you hit your partner, you are an abuser. That’s a fact you cannot escape. This doesn’t mean your partner then “gets away” with any abuse they may do towards you- verbal, emotional. Domestic violence is very often a two way thing with partners abusing each other and potentially any children as well. There is not always a binary of “the victim” and “the abuser”.

And escalating abuse...as in retaliating against verbal/emotional abuse with physical domestic violence is not technically reactive abuse because it is an escalation of abuse rather than abuse done in self- defence.

So while you may have been a victim of emotional abuse, you were also concurrently an abuser of physical domestic violence.

@Cleverpolly3
Great links - thanks for these.

So while you may have been a victim of emotional abuse, you were also concurrently an abuser of physical domestic violence

If someone is deliberately provoking another person to obtain a physical response from them, it is hard to see how the person who has got the physical reaction they were seeking, so that they can use it to their advantage, is then the victim and the other the abuser.

@AntiWorkBrigade

I used to self-harm in a similar situation, Umberella. Once had to go to hospital. Can’t explain why I did it, but it was a reaction to a build-up of helplessness and feeling pathetic when being yelled at, mocked and stood over to the point I didn’t know what was going on.

This is why I picked up on the comments about gaslighting and being vulnerable. I feel like I’ve been in a situation where you just can’t take it and normal behaviour flies out of the window.

NONE of this is said to downplay the awful situation the children are in or the risks to them, and I’m not saying this is actually what is happening here, but op’s comments raise the possibility.

I'm really sorry to hear this Anti I can absolutely empathise with that feeling of helplessness. 💐

@Notthenever

The long term impact of emotional abuse, totally negation of yourself and /or coercive control is completely deranging.

Absolutely this. 'Total negation of self' is a sadly perfect description.

Reverse the sexes and that doesn't read well.

User that's because it isn't the same. Physical & biological differences between men & women being the reason, in the main.

@Notthenever

2) He/she made me do it < normal people walk away of the situation when they are angry rather than getting violent and attacking the other person

People in normal relationships can walk away and the other person will respect that. People in abnormal relationships can't walk away: they will be prevented or followed with screaming/ shouting and abuse. That's the difference between normal relationships and toxic/ abusive ones.

Yes. Agree fully.

@EarringsandLipstick

this is how she describes it, he makes her feel like she's going crazy and gets up into her personal space until she can't cope. I feel like she's quite vulnerable. It's a horrible situation.

If you haven't personally been in this situation, you can't imagine how this feels, and how much someone can be pushed to the limit.

The behaviour is toxic. The relationship is abusive from every angle.

I would support your friend, not report her

@Umberellatheweatha is excellent.

I have been in that exact situation. It's toxic all round. They need to split

User that's because it isn't the same. Physical & biological differences between men & women being the reason, in the main.

Right, so it's ok for women to be violent to men under certain circumstances- got it 👍

@Notthenever posts are excellent, IMO, and explain the dynamic & variable nature of abuse very well.

It's very recently that coercive control & emotional abuse have become known terms. For far too long an incredibly simple definition of abusive relationships was held up.

I only learned about gaslighting, to any significant extent, from MN. I'm incredibly grateful that I did.

Still I hear a lot of talk about coercive control being very simplistic - talking about isolating a victim, financially controlling them, refusing to let them have an independent existence etc. These are all valid, but not enough is said about the mental torture that can be inflicted on someone, that will make you literally question your sanity. Some posts here have captured it very well. The hugely problematic thing is it's invisible. Even if you come to recognise it as abuse, you can't 'show' it to anyone and even someone sympathetic will struggle to see how bad it might be.

It's really clear to me that many posters here haven't ever experienced abuse of this natures, nor can they even comprehend it.

I agree with all the comments about the fact she might well be the one who is abused.

What it screams to me is that she needs to leave him. Regardless of whether she is abused or is the abuser.

FWIW I know a lovely guy who was abused by his wife. At one point, he lost it and became ‘threatening and abusive’. Police was called, he got arrested.... and very quickly released and refered back to a charity (like WA but for men).

It's toxic all round. They need to split

I don't disagree. It is toxic. They do need to split.

it's ok for women to be violent to men under certain circumstances- got it

No it's not Coffee. (My posts make that clear).

Your trite reply & use of thumbs emoji exactly captures the despair for so many women in this situation. No attempt at nuance or to see the wider context.

Just a sneery judgy reply.

@Notthenever

So while you may have been a victim of emotional abuse, you were also concurrently an abuser of physical domestic violence

If someone is deliberately provoking another person to obtain a physical response from them, it is hard to see how the person who has got the physical reaction they were seeking, so that they can use it to their advantage, is then the victim and the other the abuser.

I did explain upthread. In the abusive relationship I was in, when I was very young, I was a victim of physical violence.

The climate of violence in our home was like feeling the weather. I could sense when he was in a bad mood and that at some point, I’d mis-step and he’d beat me. It builds up, the tension in the air, and eventually I just want the inevitable over with because afterwards there is always a calm period...like after a thunderstorm has passed. So, I’d deliberately do a little act of rebellion. Say something bad or mean to him, just so that the beating I knew and could feel was coming, would get over and done with.

But did I want physical violence even though I knowingly provoked it? No. It was going to happen anyway. I was merely having a tiny bit of control over when he would explode and I’d have to endure. And honestly, if I let it build and build and build, the beating would be that much worse. I had to get it out of his system when it would just cause a bit of bruising/minor injuries. If I let it build too much, i was genuinely afraid I’d end up seriously injured or dead.

So I hope that explains to you how you can provoke an abuser to violence and still be a victim of that violence.

Say something bad or mean to him, just so that the beating I knew and could feel was coming, would get over and done with.

I'm so sorry you experienced this Plan 💔

It's interesting. Pp here saying 'reverse the sexes' fail to remember that in many instances where a man says 'she provoked me' they DON'T mean 'she was shouting in my face/stopping me from leaving/lying to my face about incontrovertible evidence of his infidelity' or whatever abusive tactics narcs like to use to control and confuse their partners.

In many many cases, 'she provoked me' means 'she wouldn't stop going on and on about the fact that I hadn't done that thing she asked.' Or 'she was talking eith her friends too much and I didn't like it' or 'she was flirting too much. I got jealous' or 'I didn't like what she was wearing' etc.

So big big differences as to what provocation looks like and it's completely naive to conflate the two scenarios.

I'm not saying there aren't women who use jealousy, control and anger as an excuse to lash out (of course there are, and I've known a lovely man be subjected to this treatment) but the fact that people are assuming the circumstances are always equal are plain deluded.

I hit my ex. Once. It was an awful toxic relationship and he was the king of mind games. SS and the police were involved and BOTH agencies put the root of the problem firmly at his feet and told me that under the circumstances, they were surprised I'd shown as much self control as I did. Not at any stage did they brand me abusive.

Those of you saying 'reverse the sexes' don't have a bloody clue,

I wish I hadn't lashed out, I wish I had left earlier and I wish I'd seen the relationship for the toxic mess it was but I absolutely refuse to be called abusive, because my ex KNEW and delighted in provoking a reaction. If you've never been there, Be very thankful. I hope you never do.

That all said, none of us truly know the circumstances so it could be any combination of situations. It looks like op has spoken to get friend and it sounds like the husband and wife need to separate and work on themselves for a bit.

@EarringsandLipstick
Thank you for kindness. I did end up calling police and getting away. But it took him choking me unconscious in the kitchen for dropping a pan I was washing to make me brave enough to call police. They took one look at my neck and he was arrested, taken to station in handcuffs. The rest is a long story, but I’m good now and have the kindest DH. So all ended well.

@PlanDeRaccordement