Where did all the good men go in the UK?

[DadAManger]

I am asking this for a friend - really!

I hear over and over now from my single friends over 30 that there is a massive shortfall in good quality men in the UK?

Do MN users and readers agree? What are your own experiences? Many happily married women on here I'm sure, so what's your view?

One thing I do notice myself - but don't necessarily share with my single friends (I like them) - is that a lot of them seem to have long lists of "must-have/must-be" points for a guy to be up to standard for them?

If I ever have another relationship I'll be looking for a man from abroad from a country that supports my own personal values instead of a diet of extreme porn and football.

Probably a good idea to avoid Italy.

www.bustle.com/p/which-countries-watch-the-most-porn-america-did-not-disappoint-in-2016-28331

I married one of good ones

@irishoak

I also married a foreigner, and am counting down the days till divorce!

After my experience with him, I've taken my list of requirements in a partner back to basics, such as:

Doesn't shout at me
Doesn't say cruel things to me
Doesn't bully me into sexual things I don't want to do
Has a job (any job at all will do)
Doesn't punch walls, kick household appliances etc
Doesn't demand money off me for drugs
Doesn't make me feel scared all the time

Am I asking too much? I haven't had much joy with online dating so far. Meanwhile, judging from my ex's social media, he mostly seems to be connecting with barely legal women who do OnlyFans.

I'm not sure what the moral of my story is, maybe pick your foreigner wisely?

@irishoak None of the things you listed have anything to do with him being a foreigner You chose a man who was abusive and abusive men are found in all countries. They would be other men from your husband's country who make wonderful husbands. As some have said, foreigners may have an additional spark that some find more attractive than the UK men here. Women have to choose their life partner wisely regardless of where they're from, end of.

Just because something is biological doesn’t mean we have to just accept it! My only real point is I fail to see any inherent moral failing in being attracted to who you are attracted to! Wether that’s youth and beauty for men or height and status for women.

Unfortunately men and women tend to peak in perceived dating value at different times in their lives, and unfortunately some people of either sex fail to peak at all.

I also entirely accept points up the thread that allude to environment. We are all socialised into these things a great deal, I don’t really see nature vs nurture as oppositional. Biology speaks to the hardware and environment writes the software to use a crude analogy. I never made the case that something being biological means that’s that so nothing to be done about it, because I have never believed that to be the case.

The purpose I made the observation for was more a concern about repression. Human sexuality, desire and attraction is a pretty powerful force in the human psyche, and whilst it might be tempting to create and enforce social taboos that align with our preferences I don’t think is healthy as we invariably end up creating problems for ourselves further downstream.

To address the points raised about men being attracted to children well of course that has to be be ruthlessly opposed, the trauma and damage that causes is simply irrefutable. However policing age gaps of fundamentally adult age individuals is unsustainable.

Just to be 100% clear, do I think twenty somethings dating forty somethings is unacceptable? Not inherently no I think it depends on the individuals. However do I think it’s wise? In probably most cases it’s not. I hope that clears things up a bit.

Men in their 40s that can date 20year olds consistently are pretty damn rare. Most men cannot do this. I noticed that people like to associate being 'hot' with being less intelligent? Pretty sure that people can be both.

Ultimately what men prioritise in their partners is not the same as what women prioritise (generally). And no amount of shaming will change that. People are simply not PC when it comes to relationships and nor should they be.
If a woman is attractive, fit, feminine and friendly she will be inundated with higher quality candidates for relationships.

Women that are successful in life may struggle to find men they deem worthy because women like to marry sideways and up. So the more successful she becomes the fewer men that she may consider to be suitable. The problem occurs when men she would like are not interested in her because men do not weigh the same qualities equally and are more than happy to marry that attractive and friendly sales assistant. If anything doing so will make both their lives easier then marrying a female version of themselves.

@DateXY I was mostly trying to make a joke in response to all the comments about marrying a foreigner to avoid the rubbishness of UK men. I think that spark or differentness is definitely a thing that can be attractive to people, but wanted to sort of warn that it doesn't always equal happiness and in fact might hide/distract from some less attractive personality traits.

Also, I didn't choose a man who was abusive, I chose a man who presented himself as an intelligent, hard working, caring, etc etc etc man. He revealed his true colours later. No one chooses an abuser.

My preference is for a man who is is tall and muscular ie who looks intimidating and threatening (because that stops other people from giving me grief), but isn't too intelligent so that I can control him easily.
Kind of useful idiot I suppose 🤷‍♀️

@Holowiwi

Men in their 40s that can date 20year olds consistently are pretty damn rare. Most men cannot do this. I noticed that people like to associate being 'hot' with being less intelligent? Pretty sure that people can be both.

Ultimately what men prioritise in their partners is not the same as what women prioritise (generally). And no amount of shaming will change that. People are simply not PC when it comes to relationships and nor should they be.
If a woman is attractive, fit, feminine and friendly she will be inundated with higher quality candidates for relationships.

Women that are successful in life may struggle to find men they deem worthy because women like to marry sideways and up. So the more successful she becomes the fewer men that she may consider to be suitable. The problem occurs when men she would like are not interested in her because men do not weigh the same qualities equally and are more than happy to marry that attractive and friendly sales assistant. If anything doing so will make both their lives easier then marrying a female version of themselves.

I think that last paragraph makes a lot of sense and would certainly explain the issue of there not being enough good men (well for that group of women at least).

More generally maybe in the UK it's just the level of entrenched views both male and female as to why there is such a divide. This thread being a good example.

@Dervel

Just because something is biological doesn’t mean we have to just accept it! My only real point is I fail to see any inherent moral failing in being attracted to who you are attracted to! Wether that’s youth and beauty for men or height and status for women.

Unfortunately men and women tend to peak in perceived dating value at different times in their lives, and unfortunately some people of either sex fail to peak at all.

I also entirely accept points up the thread that allude to environment. We are all socialised into these things a great deal, I don’t really see nature vs nurture as oppositional. Biology speaks to the hardware and environment writes the software to use a crude analogy. I never made the case that something being biological means that’s that so nothing to be done about it, because I have never believed that to be the case.

The purpose I made the observation for was more a concern about repression. Human sexuality, desire and attraction is a pretty powerful force in the human psyche, and whilst it might be tempting to create and enforce social taboos that align with our preferences I don’t think is healthy as we invariably end up creating problems for ourselves further downstream.

To address the points raised about men being attracted to children well of course that has to be be ruthlessly opposed, the trauma and damage that causes is simply irrefutable. However policing age gaps of fundamentally adult age individuals is unsustainable.

Just to be 100% clear, do I think twenty somethings dating forty somethings is unacceptable? Not inherently no I think it depends on the individuals. However do I think it’s wise? In probably most cases it’s not. I hope that clears things up a bit.

But we are not talking about policing age gaps of fundamentally adult age individuals I asked yoh how these men you claim are attracted by youth and fertility KNOW the girl is in fact an adult I certainly was fertile and well developed very young and know it’s difficult to pick a teenagers age Are you claiming the men are attracted from the age of puberty and don’t act on it because of laws. Or that attraction switch terms on on a females 18th birthday The biology argument ( which fails on so may level time and time again ) seems to avoid this question. A very serious one I’d say

@Holowiwi

Men in their 40s that can date 20year olds consistently are pretty damn rare. Most men cannot do this. I noticed that people like to associate being 'hot' with being less intelligent? Pretty sure that people can be both.

Ultimately what men prioritise in their partners is not the same as what women prioritise (generally). And no amount of shaming will change that. People are simply not PC when it comes to relationships and nor should they be.
If a woman is attractive, fit, feminine and friendly she will be inundated with higher quality candidates for relationships.

Women that are successful in life may struggle to find men they deem worthy because women like to marry sideways and up. So the more successful she becomes the fewer men that she may consider to be suitable. The problem occurs when men she would like are not interested in her because men do not weigh the same qualities equally and are more than happy to marry that attractive and friendly sales assistant. If anything doing so will make both their lives easier then marrying a female version of themselves.

Exactly this. Some women on here with so-called high flying careers are acting like women with other career types are inferior to them and they're owed men who have reached equivalent career "success." You're not, end of, and a lot of the time such marriages don't work out anyway.

In the long term, these men tend to be much happier and better suited to women with different priorities since they complement each other in the most important ways. Subsequent families they create are more likely to remain intact rather than pushed to breaking point because both parents are relentlessly prioritising goals that put too much pressure on family life/marriage. It's common sense that having two people obsessed with pursuing materialism or career status doesn't work on a practical level when trying to simultaneously raise a family who need quality time, care and attention, and run a household.

@SilenceIsNotAvailable

Had I been born 30 years earlier I'm sure sociatal pressure would have been too great for me to remain single. I do wonder whether I would have been happier however if that pressure was present (even though I'm all for personal choice / freedom).

This made me so sad. Do you really believe you'd have been happier if you had no freedom and were pressured to marry someone you didn't love and spend your life with them? Why do you think this?

I'm not saying I would have been happy necessarily but I don't think human beings are always good at choosing what makes us happy and fulfilled. Maybe working at a relationship to create a strong family unit would be the most fulfilling thing I could have done?

We tend to be swayed by short term pleasure over long term contentment.

For example I go cold water swimming most morning and absolutely dread it every time yet it improves my life no end.

I've been quite surprised by the number of you saying you prefer foreign men - in my experience I've found them to be far more traditional and perhaps misogynistic than British men. Obviously I'm basing this on the 3 foreign men I've dated - not much of a sample size!

@washingtonfold
OkCupid used to post a lot of data analysis of trends in their website (uncommonly transparent for a dating site).
One of their findings was that women usually chose to message men a few years older until to their 40s/50s where the average switched to a few years younger. Statistically though, you could probably just say they tended to pick the same age.
Men, on the other hand, showed a consistent preference for women around the age of 22, regardless of age (unless.theynwere younger than 22 themselves iirc).
The lowest age allowed on the site was 18. From that you can conclude that the preference is for the lower limit of a reasonably established adult (at that age, most people will have graduated university or a well-established school leaver).

[quote SilenceIsNotAvailable]@ActuallyIveGotDental in what respect do you believe he has married down? Or are you joking? [/quote]
He was a successful business owner, house owner, good income, etc etc. I was an unemployed, disabled, single parent, living with my parents... and that's probably the most outing post I've ever written without changing my username.

@Washingtofold I apologise I seem to be completely missing what you are asking, and I am unlearn as to it’s relevance here. I must have misconstrued something somewhere.

I mean clearly there IS a very big problem with child abuse and there are still child marriages in some parts of the world as indeed there has been throughout history, so clearly the impulse is coming from somewhere.

I’m also profoundly unclear on your question of do all men want to be with pubescent girls? I don’t think so. Not every man is even attracted to women for heavens sake, there is a lot of variation, but for the biology observation I made to hold up it just has to even out across the population.

Philosophically this whole nature vs nurture debate does tend to go around the houses perpetually, the extremes of either position don’t really hold up, but I don’t think either of us are making that case are we?

The thing about men having a preference for 22-year old women, I'm in my mid 50s and when I'm in the gym I see lots of very hot looking 22 year old lads, I don't try and pull them because it would be weird and grim and embarrassing for all of us.
Mind you it doesn't stop Madonna does it....

But then I suppose Madonna is a sugar mummy really isn't she 🤔

I married a foreigner - well, I'm the foreigner - and I can't say I'd recommend it if you are planning to have children, simply because one person has to choose to live abroad forever as a result, and that has various repercussions such as lack of local family so not having support or not being able to support them, losing touch with chidhood friends, potentially fewer career opportunities due to having a "different" CV or non-native language skills which mean you can't come across the same as you would in your original language. At some point - if someone loses their job or if you break up - there might be issues with the family relocating or one parent wanting to go home but not wanting to leave the children behind. Even if things go well, there are additional stresses on top of the usual ones you have if you settle down with someone more local - stresses that would at least balance out whatever benefits you are hoping for.

I've never had an actual relationship with a fellow Brit, but imagine that it could be really nice to be with someone who shared some of the same experiences from their childhood, enjoys the same food, knows some of your cultural references from when you were growing up, has read some of the same books, listens to the same podcasts, knows the TV programmes you like or can appreciate your favourite comedian, and with whom you're on an equal footing linguistically in your shared language, so you can match them on the witty repartees.

But why should the second be "nice to haves" e.g. if you have a good career you would have more in common with someone who does too? If you earn a fair bit having a very low earning partner who can't pay their way in doing things you enjoy like holidays/ meals out etc would be awkward and these types of things added together also mean they probably have very different priorities, opinions, frames of reference, interests, topics of conversation, hobbies etc so there would be little in common. Not in all cases, but most. They aren't all individual factors: they are in many ways interdependent and a lack of any commonality usually means no spark

Because if someone is waiting for someone who ticks all the first list (which we agree are reasonable) AND all of the second then they're hanging on and ruling out loads of people I'm favour of a fantasy.

There's a huge difference between:
A) This is the sort of lifestyle I enjoy and I'd like to be in a relationship with someone who feels the same. This probably means they'll be earning a similar amount to me, give or take.
B) I'm only interested in lawyers, doctors, dentists, financial advisors etc because I couldn't possibly date someone in what I consider to be a 'lesser' job.

Or

A) I'd like to have things in common with a potential partner.
B) They must be interested in gardening, must enjoy going to the gym, must not be interested in cycling because I hate it. They must have the same political views as me on all topics. I will also only consider dating someone if they will exclusively do the holiday type I want because I'm unwilling to try anything different.

Most people are probably in Camp A.
Some people are in Camp B and then wonder why they are finding it difficult to find someone. The likelihood is they could have dated half a dozen lovely people, if they were willing to look past the fact they didn't like a guy's shoes on the first date or the fact he said he liked running instead of football.

@LostInTheLingerieSection

I'm always amazed on threads about dating how many women apparently want a tall man. I think I'd be quite successful on OLD as I'd rule out anyone over 5ft9

SNAP! The smallest guy I dated had me hooked on smaller guys. Just found sex worked better when we were closer in height : )

if 'alpha women' marry 'alpha men' there will always be a power struggle because alphas always want to be number one and there can only be one number one

But why should the second be "nice to haves" e.g. if you have a good career you would have more in common with someone who does too? If you earn a fair bit having a very low earning partner who can't pay their way in doing things you enjoy like holidays/ meals out etc would be awkward and these types of things added together also mean they probably have very different priorities, opinions, frames of reference, interests, topics of conversation, hobbies etc so there would be little in common

Societally though, it’s expected that men will marry a lower earner, and take on most of the financial responsibility within a relationship, leaving children and house to the woman.

Flip that, and it’s less acceptable for a high earning woman to marry a low earning man, who can’t “pay their way”. Surely same as the above family income becomes joint and it doesn’t matter who is the higher earner?

Money doesn’t always mean you have different interests either. Maybe just different access.

@Miasicarisatia
I don't try and pull them because it would be weird and grim and embarrassing for all of us.
Why do you think that though?
Why would it be any more "grim and embarrassing" than approaching a stranger who was similar in age?
Would it be less so if one of those 22 year olds chose to approach you instead of you approaching them?
If so, why is that?

To follow on from the above point do you think it's a case of men not willing to partner up with someone who is a higher earner / achiever (in the standard sense of the word) as it makes them feel emasculated or women who aren't attractive to a man who is 'lesser' than they are whether it be economically or socially? Maybe a bit of both?

I'm not going to lie, I only really find a man attractive if he is taller (can be challenging as I'm 5'11"), bigger, more athletic. I don't necessarily care about how much he earns but he needs to be passionate and motivated in his chosen career.

It is only in the past few years I've been made aware how differently men and women are and what they find attractive in the opposite sex (for hetro couples). I perhaps naively thought the traits I find attractive in a man is the same as they fine attractive in a women. I do think there is a disconnect which causes a lot of confusion.

Maybe I'm just super shallow and deserve to be single

I think what rankles more with me now than actually being single is that narrative that it's my own fault! I am short and equate money with power/control. I valued what seemed to be a vocation or an artistic or creative role. But, my God the men I've dated, they all had (at least slightly) lower self-esteem than I had. So after a while, they would all get angry with me for what they told me I was thinking. So tedious. Luckily I walked away from that quickly after I'd been through it enough times to spot what was going on.
I could never make it stick with a man with even a slightly healthier self-esteem, a person who took accountability. Those men always dumped me after about four months, after I'd slept with them of course.

No way could I ever face OLD again. I did it for four years, living and learning and it was soul-destroying.

I do think porn has a lot to answer for. men think women are their to service their needs and they feel no guilt about degrading somebody else to gratify themselves.

T

I mention being short because I was never looking for TALL and Rich. In fact I ruled those out because I thought they could have their pick and wouldn't value me.

Anyway, no idea what the future holds for people still trying but I've been more at peace and I've felt better about myself since I gave up that awful pursuit of ''trying to meet somebody''.

It was no harder in my forties than it was in my 20s I guess though. Shit both times around.