Where did all the good men go in the UK?

[DadAManger]

I am asking this for a friend - really!

I hear over and over now from my single friends over 30 that there is a massive shortfall in good quality men in the UK?

Do MN users and readers agree? What are your own experiences? Many happily married women on here I'm sure, so what's your view?

One thing I do notice myself - but don't necessarily share with my single friends (I like them) - is that a lot of them seem to have long lists of "must-have/must-be" points for a guy to be up to standard for them?

🙏💙

Dating is faster and more accessible because of OLD

Dating is cheaper because of culture shifts, coffee instead of dinner. Netflix and chill.

People are less tolerant and are less interested in commitment.

People expect to receive more and expect to do less.

@TossaCoinToYerWitcher

Whereas with 'dating dating' this seems to be what women want and not so.much men. So the men ready to commit and prepared to make the effort to go with it are more likely to be successful. Not sure if that's right but women my age are adamant it's harder for them then men.

I think this is where things might diverge depending on your age/stage on life though. I was 30 when I met my future wife and ready to commit, so - in theory - I was one of those eligible men who had been "snapped up" for all those 30-something women looking to settle down with someone.

In my early 40s, having started a family, my wife decided she didn't believe in monogamy and wanted to have an open marriage. I didn't. We divorced. After a couple of years healing up and getting over it, I'm now in my mid-forties. I'm still that guy who was eligible and open to commitment - however, I'm under no illusions that a middle-aged co-parenting dad is what those same 30-something women are still looking for!

What people want in a partner pre-kids and pre-forties can vary massively to what someone post-kids and middle-aged may want. I don't want any more kids and want someone who "gets" what my stage of life is like, somost thirty-something single women are out, let alone twenty-somethings! And, to be fair, they (quite reasonably) would consider the same of me!

I agree with this too. Someone is in a very, very different frame of mind post-divorce and co-parenting children to someone of a similar age who has never been married and has no children. I think in most cases both groups would have far more success and fewer relationship difficulties by limiting their dating primarily to people in the same situation who are wanting similar things in terms of living together/ separately, having (more) children/ not, combining finances and (re)marrying/ just enjoying time together when it fits around both people's other commitments to work and children, etc...

@Gwenhwyfar

"That the competition is very tough and that men (annoyingly) are happy to marry down. "

Why is it annoying that men are happy to marry down? (I presume you mean in terms of class, because marrying a young or pretty women would not really be considered 'down' for men).
The average man earns more than the average women so if they didn't marry women who earn less than them, most would not marry at all.

Personally I'm very happy that my lovely fiancé was happy to marry down!

I feel incredibly lucky to have found such a good man, especially given the comments about tinder as that's where we met!

Don't get me wrong, I went through some idiots, but I genuinely think the fact I want seeking someone particularly "high value" in any sense (because I didn't believe that they'd ever be interested in me) is actually what meant I found someone so good. I wasn't trying too hard and dismissing people for no good reason.

Had I been born 30 years earlier I'm sure sociatal pressure would have been too great for me to remain single. I do wonder whether I would have been happier however if that pressure was present (even though I'm all for personal choice / freedom).

This made me so sad. Do you really believe you'd have been happier if you had no freedom and were pressured to marry someone you didn't love and spend your life with them? Why do you think this?

@ActuallyIveGotDental in what respect do you believe he has married down? Or are you joking?

@Holowiwi

Imagine a man who is 35, 6 feet tall, keeps himself in good shape, is doing well financially and is confident. Such a man can basically date women from 23 upwards quite easily. Men do not have any problems dating down socioeconomically. They do not prioritise the same qualities women may look for in a man. And this just a question not an attack but why would such a man date your friends when there are a lot more options available to him?

Honestly some friends of mine that fit this criteria have complained about the quality of women in the UK and have increasingly developing relationships with women from abroad.

I guess there is a disconnect somewhere.

Yes true men do tend to date down socio economically They also tend to date down age wise , education wise and place less value on the things that come with age like wisdom and life experience . Placing much higher value in youth and appearance - hence why date ‘ from 23 ‘ is somehow seen as a positive thing or a ‘ win ‘ to many men If considered with a little more deep thinking what does this tell us about how men In general and the value they place on women .? If many men are willing to prioritise a ‘ hot’ not so intelligent 24 yr old over a woman their own age over someone less ‘ hot ‘ in their opinion, Who is their match intellectually and in values and life experience I think men are without doubt the ones lacking insight here . People can argue all they like that this is somehow a biological imperative for men to seek youth and beauty yet it simply doesn’t hold up . Women according to that theory should be having sex with multiple men to encourage sperm competition, another theory that fits with biology and always choosing the male with the strongest spermicide ( not just a male with resources ) considering we now know that sperm quality decreases from age 40 in males this also raises questions . Just too many holes in the biology argument And not to mention. , supporters rarely discuss the HUGE social gender inequalities that offer the historical background of the older men chasing and or marrying the younger woman situation Of course situations where age gaps occur either way happen and I’m not talking about that . I’m talking about this mentality that somehow men should seek the younger woman because she is somehow more appealing So yes , many men do think dating a 23 yr old is a good option no matter their age . Why is that so . I would suggest we consider the role men’s social status and their egos plays in this and also the whole power dynamics As a woman do you really want to be dating a man who thinks like this anyway . Surely being single is better than with a man who has issues seeing true value in half of humanity as anything but their reproductive value or ability to look f... able ?

That the competition is very tough and that men (annoyingly) are happy to marry down.

Marrying down?? What does that actually mean, and surely people don't actually say things like that these days. What decade are we in???

I suspect biology has a major hand in this preference for younger women, and also why perhaps younger women themselves are attracted to older men.

It is a logical for men to exhibit a sexual preference for women most likely to produce healthy children and survive the experience. Also given how fewer men way back in antiquity made it to adulthood let alone old age, simply making it to an older age was an indicator of potentially strong genetics, enough at least to offset the reduction in sperm quality. There is also the added benefit as there is less risk going for an older man if he has already acquired the resources and status, whereas a younger woman’s contemporaries are a gamble.

So yes , many men do think dating a 23 yr old is a good option no matter their age . Why is that so .
I would suggest we consider the role men’s social status and their egos plays in this and also the whole power dynamics

I think there's some truth in this. However, as I said earlier, I would also offer this as a rationale why so many women place such high stock in having a man over 6ft tall.

For the man, having a girly, younger woman enhances his sense of masculinity: he's a manly protector.

For a woman, having a very tall guy enhances her sense of femininity (this is what I've been told by the women themselves): they love the feeling of being "protected", even if only in a hypothetical sense.

In both cases, yes, its pandering to the ego - or at least helps fill a deficit they perceive in themselves.

My friend in her late thirties is currently dating and looking for someone to settle down with after being messed around and dumped by a very long term boyfriend.
She says only the ‘dregs’ are left

@Miasicarisatia

many men do not choose wives who can have an equal partnership with them 'Equal' would fall outside of the comfort zone, it's too close to the point where she could actually better him in some way and that would make him feel very threatened. Better to keep her as subordinated as possible...

Many career women won't want to hear this but for many of these men who are very career driven/high flying careers, they actually match much better with women for whom career is NOT such a high priority, or women who have careers that are less demanding. Especially if there are children involved.

Two headstrong people both obsessed with their own time-consuming careers, while juggling children and household management is a recipe for a high stress, unhappy environment (and in many cases, divorce).

Despite having some common interests, two people like this will most of the time be simply incompatible in the long term as a family unit.

There's an air of snobbishness in some posts, looking down on women who are less career obsessed as being somehow lesser than women with so-called high flying careers. These men certainly aren't "marrying down". These other women may have a whole range of other qualities that make them more attractive e.g. want to prioritise spending more quality time with future kids, less uptight, or are interesting in other ways. And who's to say that your career in finance for example, is of more value than that of a nurse who is helping save lives?? Just because one career earns a lot more doesn't make it more valuable.

Yes, some men may be seeking women with less demanding careers due to their own insecurities, but a lot of the time, as men are very rational creatures, they've wisely figured out that marrying their female equivalent is simply unlikely to lead to a long term happy marriage/family.

Women are perfectly capable of being intelligent and having successful careers without being "headstrong" or "stressed", or neglecting their children and husbands or family life. 😆 It is perfectly possible to have an enriching and equal relationship and both have careers and earn money and care for children and have an equal partnership you know.

What you posted is as ludicrous as suggesting a woman with more than two braincells to rub together would think that all men with a decent career and functioning brain are incapable of having a happy family home or a successful marriage and need a nice little 1950s housewife to take care off all of that tiresome "domestic stuff". 🙄

What do you think single parents do that do all of these roles at once, earn the money and be the main caregiver?? Clearly it's not impossible to have more than one role in life.

The internalised misogyny in your post is incredible. Is it just delusion, or is that irrational comment a symptom of a chip on the shoulder?

The conclusion that single, unmarried (presumably meaning unpartnered) women are happiest seems to be based on research by Paul Dolan.

Dolan said that data showed that women in relationships said they were happy but in fact they were, in his words, "fucking miserable". The Guardian reported this in an article on him, but redacted this out when it was pointed out that Dolan had not just misunderstood the data but had done so in a howlingly amateurish way.

So it's questionable whether this conclusion is really based on much, although for my own part, pregnancy and labour don't look like my idea of fun, and young children weren't either.

I don't think the average man is threatened by a happy single woman.

I know someone who does get described as a mad cat woman. The reason is that she has lots of cats, and they tend to be the topic of her small talk and her news.

@TomPinch

Dolan said that data showed that women in relationships said they were happy but in fact they were, in his words, "fucking miserable".

😂😂

although for my own part, pregnancy and labour don't look like my idea of fun, and young children weren't either.

Not wrong here! 😬

I know someone who does get described as a mad cat woman. The reason is that she has lots of cats, and they tend to be the topic of her small talk and her news.

Fair in that case. 🥱😴

(she's actually an excellent person and extremely clever but slightly socially maladroit, and cats are her safe subject. I think the MCL label is a bit unkind)

@Dervel

I suspect biology has a major hand in this preference for younger women, and also why perhaps younger women themselves are attracted to older men.

It is a logical for men to exhibit a sexual preference for women most likely to produce healthy children and survive the experience. Also given how fewer men way back in antiquity made it to adulthood let alone old age, simply making it to an older age was an indicator of potentially strong genetics, enough at least to offset the reduction in sperm quality. There is also the added benefit as there is less risk going for an older man if he has already acquired the resources and status, whereas a younger woman’s contemporaries are a gamble.

So how do you account for the many many younger women who are not remotely attracted to older men. I’d totally challenge your assumption that younger women in general are attracted to older men . Although a minority may be in general I’d say most are not . To the fact that spent quality decreases with birth defects being more likely with the older fathers

• the fact that the biological argument would see women sleeping with multiple men concurrently to encourage the best speak wins ie sperm competition

And most importantly what understanding does you have of the social conditioning and oppression of women and the valuing of them only for youth and attractiveness and the fear of women holding resources ( a particular issue as women aged and were/ are more likely to become powerful ) Through many years of gender studies I’ve come to understand that the social constructs here are widely dismissed with biology being offered as a quick excuse Basically your not accounting for the vast and bland any mysogyny that has encouraged men to seek younger women

I read an interview with Mary off Gogglebox who said when she was younger she was sick to death of Giles but looked at all her friends' husbands and realised they were no better, so there was no point in divorcing and hoping it would be different the second time around.

• sperm quality decreases , not spent

@SilenceIsNotAvailable,

I remember around that time going to a series of weddings within a three year period just after uni.

The first was for very good friend from school. He married at 21 to a woman he met at university. They've got 3 kids now and are still (AFAIK) still happily married getting on 24 years later.

He's just a good bloke, very easy to be around, and I imagine he could have made it work with many women.

You're correct in what you say about bubbles - that was mine. There was a general expectation that you would date to find your life partner, not just to gad around. A lot simpler than now.

SilenceIsNotAvailable- Your response to TossaaCoin.

I agree but don't know where to find this group of people. If I did then I wouldn't look any further, although reading the pages of MN it seems pretty clear this group exists.

@Dervel

‘ Also given how fewer men way back in antiquity made it to adulthood let alone old age, simply making it to an older age was an indicator of potentially strong genetics, enough at least to offset the reduction in sperm quality. ’

You do realise women were also just as unlikely to survive into older ages due to childbirth deaths right ?
According to your logic a woman who has given birth successfully is in fact a better bet !!! Given that first labour’s were in fact the most dangerous
You don’t explain why men would therefore be more likely to value youth over older women who had proven fecundity if it’s not for the social constructs and mysogyny
You claim that biology say a younger women equals a better chance of children . This simply isn’t true unless your comparing a post menopausal woman to a pre menopausal one .
Biology states that proven child production equals a higher chance of further successful childbirth
It also suggests women would want multiple male sexual partners at once
Neither of these seem to be the case in the majority of choices
You can’t explain this with biology so perhaps you can address the social constructs that lead to this.
Additionally how to you explain the millions upon millions of men who don’t want children or the younger women who simply are not fertile
Finally, and most troubling to the biological argument is the recognition that fertility in females starts at around age 11 . With frames actually developing fertile attributes as children , what are you saying about men if you put their attraction down to what makes females fertile ???? Your implications are Scary.
Luckily the old biological chestnut argument is being dismantled by science and further questions being asked .
I’ll leave my
I’m out there as I realise some people , particularly men are determined to excuse their ‘ preferences with ‘ science and personally I find this questionable and troubling

I'm moving away from the OPs question but I wonder a bit if there's a thing around online dating per se.

How long has tinder been about, around 10 years? Whatever the rights and wrongs it does seem online dating is now a primary source of finding a partner (not sure if it is solely the primary source).

Most people I've spoken to say how hard they find it to get their head around (although admittedly that's people around the age of 40 so it's a change in mindset to what we were used to).

I think it could do with looking at although there doesn't seem much appetite for regulation of online dating.

I dated both British and foreign men before my DH and I ended up only wanting to go out with foreign ones. My DH is British born from another culture. I can’t explain it but Brit men as a group are pretty horrible.

My job actually entails working with mainly men producing a male product so get to see lots on a daily basis. I find them alright and quite nice looking until they hit 40, then they seem to turn into Jabba The Hut meets Victor Meldrew with an ego the size of a country.

As a middle age woman, if I were to become single again, I’m not sure I’d want to get married again. I wouldn’t need a bloke for finances, to have DC or for sex (not bothered). I think I’d fill my life with friends and hobbies and perhaps have a couple of male friends on the slow burner.

As I get older I grow more dislike for men. A close relative recently introduced her BF to us and wants us all to play happy families. I just can’t drum up the enthusiasm. He’s a middle age cliche and I actually thought to myself, oh great another middle aged arsehole I have to put up with.

My mum always said make an effort to find a good guy in your 20's as the good ones get snapped up. At the time I was very and thought she was SO old fashioned. However my friends in their 30's who are single say the same, and the ones who found great partners but found them at an older age have experienced some issues, such as difficult ex-partners and drawn out divorce proceedings (despite meeting after they'd split ect)