It’s me again with the critical John Lewis obsessed parents who mean well

[TooStressyTooMessy]

Hi all,

I have posted about this before (pre-Covid) under a slightly different username.

I have two DDs, age 8 and 10. Married to DH and we have been together forever (to be clear he is the father of DDs).

I used to have a great (or so I thought) relationship with my parents until I had children. They mean well and absolutely adore our DDs. HOWEVER, I find being with them incredibly stressful. They live a few hours away so are not really involved in our day-to-day lives although we speak on the phone.

They very much want to be ‘fun’ grandparents and this is where the problems start. They think we are too strict, especially DH. They do not like any kind of discipline at all, eg if we told them to use a knife and fork at the table, not to rub off from the table, asked them to help us tidy their rooms, then my parents would view that as too strict. They do not like the children to cry or be sad when they visit or we visit them. I suppose they are Disney grandparents. That would be fine, that is the joy of being grandparents. Except if we tell the kids off for anything at all then my parents eye roll, tut, and often have to go and have a lie down because they get so upset to see a child upset. I really wish I was joking. We can never play a board game or anything like that with them as they become sad if DC lose and get upset.

I am absolutely not too strict and neither is DH although he is stricter than me. I have really struggled with discipline and did a parenting course when they were younger where I was told in no uncertain tones that I needed to be stricter. So I am by no means an ogre.

Basically they hate DH (loved him pre kids), think I am too strict and not capable of parenting, and think the children are growing up in a terrible environment. There is NO abuse. They really just do seem to think that setting boundaries and parenting, eg telling a child it is bedtime and asking them to turn off the telly, asking them not to run off in a busy street (ore-Covid) is cruel.

I got lots of advice on here and actually eventually stood up to them. Told them I was an adult, DH and I are the parents not them. We saw them one more time which was tense but ok and then Covid came.

Of course Covid itself has been truly horrific. But not having to see my parents has been wonderful .

They are coming up for a weekend in May when overnight stays are allowed. I am dreading it. I am already stressed and nagging DH to fix some stuff around the house which needs to be done before they come. I times my Dad one visit and it took him seconds to criticise something from walking in. So DH and I are arguing about it which is the usual way of things and makes me stressed before I have even seen them. He is also upset as it is obvious they do not like him.

They have already suggested us going to the nearest City for a John Lewis shopping trip. I have said no and my mum was surprised and disappointed. I have already said repeatedly that a busy town centre is not a relaxing environment when they will then want to take DDs in and be surprised they want to buy everything in sight. Let alone with the Covid situation - it is not a fun experience! They live not too far from London and can easily go to John Lewis there so I am not depriving them!

I realise this is an opportunity to move forward. It has been over a year since we saw them. I am desperate not to go back to feeling like a child desperate for their approval and them making it clear they think we are bad parents. They are not involved in my parenting usually so why do I feel on show so much when they do come?

TLDR: any tips on moving forward with a more adult relationship with my parents after the natural break of lockdown.

Well done OP for the phone conversation and hopefully your dad will mull it over and talk to mum. I also agree with the staying over as you need to know if their behaviour and your reactions to it have changed or not. I think your aim might be for them to disapprove as much as they like (this is their right after all) but they have to STOP showing the disapproval by tutting and criticising and going to lie down (a childish reaction). Good luck!

This is not anything to do with OPs husband. DH is likely at the end of his rope due to his wife's acceptance and rolling over when it comes to her parents.

I do not think anything has really changed here re her parents at all. One conversation that seemingly went well is only one conversation that seemingly went well.

OP has been parentified from an early age by her parents and such behaviour from them is rooted in abuse. OP is absolutely terrified of them (she has stated as much) and that fear is something her parents instilled in her from an early age. That same fear is harming her own children and leading her to still seek parental approval even now.

Meeting up for the day isn't "a few hours" you set off early and get back late and you could always do them more frequently if you find it more manageable.

It's also easier to let your DC be thoroughly spoiled for one day and bite your tongue. It also means it's on neutral public territory.

Or meet for the day and let them have the DC on their own for several days and then meet up one evening and pick them back up.

Perhaps a short sharp dose of them all being together with do them all some good to the horrors of each other's behaviour without you there to deal with or witness it!

People are banging on about the kids and hardly mentioning the poor husband. If the sexes were reversed we would all be saying LTB.
Pages of armchair psychoanalysis when the simple answer is stop throwing your husband under the bus for people who denigrate and bully him at every step.
The kids 'love' them to bits because they let them get away with murder and give them anything they want .

@bluelemming

I would love to hear your parents' side of the story. I'm going against the grain here but it reads to me that it's not so much your parents who are the problem but your husband.

Maybe your parents are genuinely concerned that your DC are disciplined too much. You sound scared of your DH. So it is more comfortable for you to blame your parents. But I think you could be blaming the wrong people here for the situation.

There’s always one.

Well done you.

Your own inertia when it comes to your parents (hence your telling your DH and kids to be completely compliant on their visits) along with your fear, obligation and guilt to them hurts you just as much as your own family unit now.

@Mookie81

People are banging on about the kids and hardly mentioning the poor husband. If the sexes were reversed we would all be saying LTB. Pages of armchair psychoanalysis when the simple answer is stop throwing your husband under the bus for people who denigrate and bully him at every step. The kids 'love' them to bits because they let them get away with murder and give them anything they want .

100% this

Also what @OrangeBlossomsinthesun said

Your DH ‘giving up’ is a BAD sign.

I was a little less direct previously but you aren’t seeing what’s going on here.

Your H may have reached his limit. He may think this shit show is the last straw because you’ve had the opportunity to change things and on the very first occasion, you’re caving to them, caving to the kids who are absolutely taking advantage of the dynamic your parents create.

You need to cancel the visit, you need to convey change of plan to a day meet because you’re worried they will be critical and you’re not going to go back to that.

If you can’t tell them on the phone, get dh to text them from your phone

They can call you and ask whatever and all you have to do is say, I’ve decided this is the best first step.

And fgs, be the parent, you’re not helping your kids learn about this stuff by allowing them to call the shots!

Between you and your fear of your parents, your fear of upsetting your dds, your repeating history and the dds are seeing the opportunity to manipulate the situation so they get a free pass to a no rules weekend

Kids all do that :) we all know this, but you’re the one undermining your family atm.

You can stop this. You might need help from dh to effect the change, but it must be done!!

We got you!

I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this has already been suggested.

I'd see them for one night then let them stay in your house with the DC and book yourself and DH a 2 day break somewhere. Tell your parents how amazing it will be for you to have time to yourselves after lockdown. Your parents can experience how zero discipline with less sleep , irregular mealtimes, too much tv etc. Impacts on the DC behavior. If they want to take the to John Alexis after a late night even better ! Seriously I'd leave them to it, tell them it's because you'd like to encourage a close bond with them and DC

Hi Stressy, really good to see you have joined Stately Homes.

It reads to me - and apologies if this point has already been made, I have read most of the thread but may have missed it - that your parents have failed to accept that both you and your brother are not children any more.

Getting a puppy, or raising your own family, are things that adults do.

Your parents are keeping you in the “child” box - they know better than you, they have the right to tell you off, they make decisions without taking account of your wants and needs.

You and your husband disciplining your children is proof that you are now an adult independent woman and that causes them unconscious stress as they haven’t adjusted their mental maps.

I don’t know how parents make the transition to seeing us as independent adults, my father never did and we don’t speak any more as a consequence of some of that behaviour.

Stately homes will have some good advice.

@tenredthings

I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if this has already been suggested.

I'd see them for one night then let them stay in your house with the DC and book yourself and DH a 2 day break somewhere. Tell your parents how amazing it will be for you to have time to yourselves after lockdown. Your parents can experience how zero discipline with less sleep , irregular mealtimes, too much tv etc. Impacts on the DC behavior. If they want to take the to John Alexis after a late night even better ! Seriously I'd leave them to it, tell them it's because you'd like to encourage a close bond with them and DC

Probably a good idea to read the whole thread then - similar has already been suggested and OP has said GPs won't go for it

Have read all further replies.

Yes I can see that of course my DDs love seeing my parents as it absolutely is a free pass to a weekend of being bought stuff, no rules and constantly being fussed over.

I am under no illusions that the conversation yesterday will necessarily have helped. In fact I suspect it will make things worse as it will reinforce their opinion of me that I am an unstable child. They have never appreciated that my DB and I have grown up, no.

I think it bothers me what they think is because the atmosphere is so, so awful when we see them (the tutting, sighs, whispers, fussing, lying down etc) that I imagine if they actually could stop thinking we are terrible parents then we wouldn’t have to deal with that atmosphere each time. When they are not with me I can ignore it but when they are it is just horrific.

Re. upsetting the kids, I have always found it hard to accept that so much of parenting seems to be upsetting your kids by saying no or by stopping them killing themselves or each other in the toddler years . I hate saying no and am very bad at it but I have made a huge effort over the years to put in boundaries and expectations and to say no when required (eg no you cannot spend £100 on tat in John Lewis today). I naively expected children to be intrinsically good and always want to do the right thing (I was always good, why would you not be?) and it was a horrible shock to find that this was not the case .

My children really revert to toddler behaviour when around my parents though and my parents smile indulgently. I feel powerless to stop it so would just let it carry on but then am even more panicked as I know DH will intervene and stop it despite my patents’ obvious disapproval. I know it is absolutely insane.

My parents do not see themselves as critical, I know that.

The main, main thing I need to do is find a way to see them without the dark cloud of fear and despair around me when I do. I guess therapy is the way.

Anyway, don’t want to keep going round in circles as I can imagine it is incredible annoying. Will read the books and the Stately Homes threads.

OP I didn't see your previous threads but I don't think you're going round in circles here, you seem to be taking on board what everyone is saying. I think you need to get really clear (you have become more so throughout the thread) about what you want from your relationship with them, and the next step is the How and then What If That's Not Possible.

There are people on this thread who can definitely help with these.

The danger is that this all feels extremely uncomfortable so you back off because it's the easiest thing to do in the short term, but the long term implications of that could be really really something you don't want.

You need to find the courage to keep pushing forward through the discomfort in thinking about this and unpicking it, for all your sakes.

Right now you can stop that dark cloud and fear by changing the visits. Just meet for the day.

When they start with the emotional blackmail be honest - I don't enjoy your visits. You can even say after lockdown I think staying over is too much let's start with a day visit.

Let them have a tantrum!

You are way off changing your emotional response so start with changing the circumstances.

If they complain suggest they have the DC on their own. They have the choice to accept or not.

You will say "they would be hurt"

Whatever you do or say or change they will pull the "we hurt emotional guilt trip" because that is what they have always done and that is how they get you to comply!

I promise in day-to-day life I am not such a basket case! I just get on with it and parent my children, with the usual doubts along the way but not like this.

OP, I can understand that cancelling the overnight stay would feel like the nuclear option. It would feel like that for me too if I were in your shoes.

I know the posters here all mean well, and some have had awful family experiences, but the overall tone is so negative. I don't know anyone in real life who's gone NC or even LC with their parents, and on MN it's all NC/LC.

They are your parents after all, and I think however awful their behaviour is, they deserve an opportunity to rectify and save their relationship with you and the grandchildren. I would advocate being clear with them on your boundaries, but also being kind and being generous when assuming what their motives are. They come from a different generation of parenting, and it's likely they think they're being caring or that tutting is no big deal. They need to understand how much it hurts and stresses you out. If having understood that they continue to be awful, then fair enough build in some distance.

FYI my parents are very similar to yours.

Why are you worried whether we think you're a good parent or not?

You need to work on accepting that your DP aren't kind and lovely and well meaning.

They want everyone to behave in an abnormal and dysfunctional way to satisfy their needs.

It's damaging to you
It's damaging to your marriage
It's damaging to you DC

The only people benefiting is them and you are too afraid to say no.

AFRAID you are afraid of your parents, that's how much they have damaged you

I had the opposite situation with my mum, in that she automatically thinks every child is being horribly naughty and needs telling off. If a child cries, she thinks they are "showing off", for instance, and gives them stern, disapproving looks and muttered, cryptic comments, or outright tells them off for attention-seeking. A mixture of an unfortunate upbringing and genetic anxiety on her part. I have tried various approaches to her over the course of my life, but the upshot is that she's not going to change because she can't cope with anything remotely approaching criticism. I get on best with her on the phone. Visits are short and I live abroad anyway. She's a lot nicer when not stressed by visits, so I like her a lot more this way.

So from my personal experience,
I imagine if they actually could stop thinking we are terrible parents then we wouldn’t have to deal with that atmosphere each time.
Unlikely to happen imho.
When they are not with me I can ignore it
Great! Work that in.

@dorothy001

OP, I can understand that cancelling the overnight stay would feel like the nuclear option. It would feel like that for me too if I were in your shoes.

I know the posters here all mean well, and some have had awful family experiences, but the overall tone is so negative. I don't know anyone in real life who's gone NC or even LC with their parents, and on MN it's all NC/LC.

They are your parents after all, and I think however awful their behaviour is, they deserve an opportunity to rectify and save their relationship with you and the grandchildren. I would advocate being clear with them on your boundaries, but also being kind and being generous when assuming what their motives are. They come from a different generation of parenting, and it's likely they think they're being caring or that tutting is no big deal. They need to understand how much it hurts and stresses you out. If having understood that they continue to be awful, then fair enough build in some distance.

FYI my parents are very similar to yours.

Those of us with awful family experiences recognize the dysfunction on display and know from experience that positivity doesn't ultimately work.

Cavagirl I have always been desperate for some kind of validation that I am a good parent, or at least not a shit one. From anyone. On a slightly unrelated note, I really envy those who are intrinsically confident in their parenting, or who never even seem to doubt at all that they are correct in how they parent. It must be bliss to feel that way.

I have very similar feelings dorothy

It’s useful to hear the other side ravenmum, that sounds equally stressful for you .

I don't know anyone in real life who's gone NC or even LC with their parents
Living abroad, obviously almost all the expats I know are at the very least LC with their parents. But that's not the one-way cause-and-effect chain you might think. Many people openly admit that they either left to escape, and never went back, or that they might have thought twice about living abroad if their relationship with their parents had been healthier.

But OP isn't even thinking about going LC. She's just thinking about not having them over to stay, or staying with them for shorter periods.

You sound like my DH, he has to deal with his hyper critical parents, they can never just arrive and have a nice time. There has to be some commentary about the state of the house, something being broken, the kids not being more advanced than they should be. Top tips on parenting and lots of face pulling. I was told to smile and put up with it too from my DH. The thing is i didnt, there not my parents and I am not having people coming into my home criticisng our choices. I never engaged in there nonsense and it caused alot of arguments between me and DH. When they realised I wouldnt engage with them they changed tactics and waited until I left the room to inform my DH of the issues - i did laugh when they told him that our 8mth old baby was obese and need to cut down the milk. He would then relay this to me. It was one thing after another with DH always minimising and telling me i was being unreasonable. Funny enough when he finally climbed partially out of the fog all hell broke loose and they went NC for a year. This has happened on three occassions now which is three years out of my childrens lives, the DC they claim to love and adore were cut off when boundaries were set. My older two remember it and dont bother with them at all. You are not supporting your DH, you expect him to put up and shut up and are focussing your energy on him rather than the real problem which is your parents. Your DC dont adore them, they adore the presents and getting way with everything. If that stopped I can assure you your DC would be indifferent. Time for you and your DH to be a united front

I know OP isn't considering LC. I can just completely imagine how suggesting no overnight would land with the grandparents, based on how she's described them. It would feel like a big rejection that's come from nowhere, especially after a year apart due to covid. I don't think that day out would have a particularly pleasant atmosphere.

I'm just going against the grain a bit and wondering if the OP might have a final go at being really clear about her boundaries, but also being kind and open to her parents changing their behaviour. If they then don't change their behaviour, then she'll know she's tried her best and can then work on building distance.

Dorothy

You've probably tried your whole life re your parents as well and its got you nowhere.

OPs parents come from a different generation but that is no excuse or justification either for their behaviour towards the OP and her family. Both her parents are as bad as one another, they feed off each other's poor behaviour and otherwise enable each other. Emotionally healthy people do not act like these people do towards their grandchildren or their now adult child.

OPs father was treated as the "golden child" within his family at the expense of his siblings. OPs mother merely goes along with her H out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. This type of toxic crap can and does go down the generations; now its the turn of the OPs family to be affected by her parents behaviours.

OPs parents only have one point of view that is acceptable to them; their own. No dissent of any sort is tolerated and is stamped out. OP is mightily fearful of her parents; she really has been led to believe the sky will fall in on her if she shows dissent or her own mind.

That’s exactly my thinking dorothy001

rogueone your post is really freakishly accurate. They do exactly that. They know my DH doesn’t care what they think so they wait until he leaves to relay all their concerns. On the phone after the visit I then get a concerned list of all the issues.