It’s me again with the critical John Lewis obsessed parents who mean well

[TooStressyTooMessy]

Hi all,

I have posted about this before (pre-Covid) under a slightly different username.

I have two DDs, age 8 and 10. Married to DH and we have been together forever (to be clear he is the father of DDs).

I used to have a great (or so I thought) relationship with my parents until I had children. They mean well and absolutely adore our DDs. HOWEVER, I find being with them incredibly stressful. They live a few hours away so are not really involved in our day-to-day lives although we speak on the phone.

They very much want to be ‘fun’ grandparents and this is where the problems start. They think we are too strict, especially DH. They do not like any kind of discipline at all, eg if we told them to use a knife and fork at the table, not to rub off from the table, asked them to help us tidy their rooms, then my parents would view that as too strict. They do not like the children to cry or be sad when they visit or we visit them. I suppose they are Disney grandparents. That would be fine, that is the joy of being grandparents. Except if we tell the kids off for anything at all then my parents eye roll, tut, and often have to go and have a lie down because they get so upset to see a child upset. I really wish I was joking. We can never play a board game or anything like that with them as they become sad if DC lose and get upset.

I am absolutely not too strict and neither is DH although he is stricter than me. I have really struggled with discipline and did a parenting course when they were younger where I was told in no uncertain tones that I needed to be stricter. So I am by no means an ogre.

Basically they hate DH (loved him pre kids), think I am too strict and not capable of parenting, and think the children are growing up in a terrible environment. There is NO abuse. They really just do seem to think that setting boundaries and parenting, eg telling a child it is bedtime and asking them to turn off the telly, asking them not to run off in a busy street (ore-Covid) is cruel.

I got lots of advice on here and actually eventually stood up to them. Told them I was an adult, DH and I are the parents not them. We saw them one more time which was tense but ok and then Covid came.

Of course Covid itself has been truly horrific. But not having to see my parents has been wonderful .

They are coming up for a weekend in May when overnight stays are allowed. I am dreading it. I am already stressed and nagging DH to fix some stuff around the house which needs to be done before they come. I times my Dad one visit and it took him seconds to criticise something from walking in. So DH and I are arguing about it which is the usual way of things and makes me stressed before I have even seen them. He is also upset as it is obvious they do not like him.

They have already suggested us going to the nearest City for a John Lewis shopping trip. I have said no and my mum was surprised and disappointed. I have already said repeatedly that a busy town centre is not a relaxing environment when they will then want to take DDs in and be surprised they want to buy everything in sight. Let alone with the Covid situation - it is not a fun experience! They live not too far from London and can easily go to John Lewis there so I am not depriving them!

I realise this is an opportunity to move forward. It has been over a year since we saw them. I am desperate not to go back to feeling like a child desperate for their approval and them making it clear they think we are bad parents. They are not involved in my parenting usually so why do I feel on show so much when they do come?

TLDR: any tips on moving forward with a more adult relationship with my parents after the natural break of lockdown.

I am thinking of saying something like: Mum, the children are really looking forward to seeing you. However, I feel everyone becomes very stressed during the visits. It feels as if you dislike the way we parent and that makes me unhappy. She will then say ‘no we don’t, we only care and worry for you and the girls’ etc. Does that sound ok to say and then what do I say when she replies with that? I will then have to have the same conversation with my Dad!

@TooStressyTooMessy

I am thinking of saying something like: Mum, the children are really looking forward to seeing you. However, I feel everyone becomes very stressed during the visits. It feels as if you dislike the way we parent and that makes me unhappy. She will then say ‘no we don’t, we only care and worry for you and the girls’ etc. Does that sound ok to say and then what do I say when she replies with that? I will then have to have the same conversation with my Dad!

Well you've already predicted her unhelpful reply and your difficulty in responding to it, so no, probably this isn't quite there yet!

'I feel' and 'it feels' just leaves the door open for her to say your feeling is wrong.

"Mum, I know you like seeing the children but these visits inevitably end in bad feeling, and we don't like it when you imply we should be doing things differently or better, because we think our family is a strong one and we're happy. So especially as it's been a while and we all need to readjust, let's keep it to short trips out (or nothing at all, maybe) for now"

"Mum, the children are really looking forward to seeing you. However, I wanted to broach the fact that everyone here (including the children) becomes very stressed for various reasons during your visits. I get stressed because you overtly and obviously disapprove of the way we parent. DH gets stressed for the same reason. The girls detect that we are stressed and become stressed/misbehave in turn. In short, the atmosphere of disapproval which you bring with you puts us all on edge. I wanted to flag it ahead of time because both myself and DH would LOVE to have a visit with you where we're not constantly waiting to be criticised, and that would in turn make the girls much happier too. You're always saying how you want the girls to be happy; well, they are happiest when their parents are happy. You can help us with that by being positive, cheerful and not picking holes in everything we do and say. Dissect us all you like in the car on the way home but not in our house! Also please tell Dad not to go upstairs for his passive aggressive lie-downs anymore, the girls end up thinking they have done something dreadful and it stresses them out even more."

Something like that anyway!

Whatever you say and however carefully you word it will cut no ice with these people. As Squooka says they have no interest in reaching a happy consensus with you.

You cannot either apply" normal" rules of familial interactions to dysfunctional abusive people like your parents; all this "I feel" is red rag to a bull. They do not care how you feel and your words will be seen by them as an attack on them. It will not go well for you.

They will not change; this works for them and they will not be the nice kind parents you perhaps still want them to be. You are going to have to let go of any and all hope here that they will change and or say sorry to you and your H.

@TooStressyTooMessy

I am thinking of saying something like: Mum, the children are really looking forward to seeing you. However, I feel everyone becomes very stressed during the visits. It feels as if you dislike the way we parent and that makes me unhappy. She will then say ‘no we don’t, we only care and worry for you and the girls’ etc. Does that sound ok to say and then what do I say when she replies with that? I will then have to have the same conversation with my Dad!

The problem with this is you're asking her to agree that her behaviour is wrong.

She will never do this. So then what?

Your parents will never agree with you that their behaviour needs to change.

Instead - if you're going to have this conversation with her about the May visit - you need to decide what you want to happen and tell her that is what is going to happen.

It is a transactional conversation. Success is her receiving the message. She can either agree to new plans, or cancel entirely.

Resist explaining in detail and giving her the opportunity to critique your rationale. She will never agree with you. And you don't need her to.

Why do you need to have separate individual conversations with them? (You said you will have to have the same conversation with your dad?)

ok maybe I will have to reword things then. The separate conversation thing was that it will have to be on the telephone with them. When I had the conversation last time with them I asked for them both to be on speaker and it just felt horrific. I wondered if it would be less confrontational to speak to one person then the other.

Ok, so combining your comments:
Mum / Dad, the girls are really looking forward to seeing you. However, DH and I would appreciate if you would keep any concerns or comments about our parenting to yourselves until you are on your journey home. You want the girls to be happy and that is best achieved with a happy positive atmosphere.

I have booked us a slot at a National Trust property for the day.

First start with: What's the purpose of the conversation? It's not entirely clear (to me, anyway!)

That is stating a plan for things but not asking them to change or accept their behaviour?

Cavagirl I have no idea . What I want is to avoid the dark cloud of fear and disapproval so the purpose is to tell / ask them in advance to stop tutting and sighing and stop the sad looks.

Are you asking us or telling us?

I am so shit at this. You wouldn’t believe that I often have difficult conversations at work and am really not terrible at them.

Really what I want to do is beg them not to make me feel so inadequate but I don’t think that’s the angle you have all agreed .

Why can I laugh about this away from them but can’t see the funny side when they are here????

Ok so the purpose of the conversation is to identify that the visits are extremely stressful and have a negative impact on the girls behaviour. So in advance I would like to ask them not to be so critical.

Sorry multiple multiple cross posts!!!

What I want is to avoid the dark cloud of fear the good thing is - you control this (believe it or not). You can choose to feel a dark cloud or not.

the purpose is to tell / ask them in advance to stop tutting and sighing and stop the sad looks You cannot control this. They will not stop. There is no point asking them to. The only thing you can control is your response.

A tip I once read on here was to try disassociating yourself from the situation. E.g. Terrible Parent Visit Bingo (you and DH compete to notice the first critical house repair comment) or pretend you are in an episode of Outnumbered. Or Father Ted.

Let go of the idea this can be managed in a mature way, as they are nuts.

Is the National Trust property for a day trip, or as part of an overnight visit?

I think you need to accept that you need to tackle it head on at them time.

Stop with the criticism it's hurtful - every time

The girls mustn't cry - when they are upset of course they will cry it's normal

@OrangeBlossomsinthesun

Why should be modify his behaviour? I guess I really struggle to see why he shouldn’t. To be it’s a no brainier - he should modify it to avoid an argument with my parents or worse, to avoid the huge stress I am under and the dark dark clouds and fretful looks and tuts. Because you're too scared to stand up to them. He is doing what you should be doing, ignoring their batshit behaviour.

What actually makes me really annoyed is the tutting and looks don’t seem to bother him but I get more and more stressed. If keeping quiet and staying out of the way would improve the situation then why won’t he do it? Why should he? In his own home? Why should he kowtow to people who are criticising him at every turn?

I sort of feel as if he won’t do this one thing for me. He could say the same about you, why won't you do this one thing for him (stand up to your parents and support him as an equal partner)
He does feel really hurt and excluded and I suppose I view that as incredibly juvenile and annoying. We would all have a better time if he stayed at home but I can’t tell him that of course. So, his in laws are bitching about him non-stop and you are criticising him for not bowing down to them and you wonder why he's hurt that you might all go off without him?

The reason I think the DC would be upset is that they themselves ask to stay longer. They would happily stay for a week! of course they do, because there is no discipline whatsoever and they get to do what they want and have everyone fussing over them and ensuring they are having the best time ever AT ALL TIMES or woebetide.

Maybe they do enjoy being miserable! My mother was like this, it's like a hobby.

First they exchange looks. Both go silent and tut. My Mum looks as if she will cry. My Dad stops speaking. They both look concerned and keep exchanging concerned looks. I feel incredibly stressed and upset as I just want us to get along. Hugely passive aggressive and manipulative. Would you put up with this from ANYONE else?

At night they whisper in loud voices to say all of the above to each other again, also that DH is horrible and I am scared of him. This is where they are attempting to drive a wedge between you and DH.

And I can’t tell you enough @TooStressyTooMessy exactly much experience @OrangeBlossomsinthesun has in all this...

Please take this from her as gospel, from atilla too and everyone else

I hope you can see how ridiculous it is for you to expect everyone to bow and cowtow to your parents

@TooStressyTooMessy

Ok so the purpose of the conversation is to identify that the visits are extremely stressful and have a negative impact on the girls behaviour. So in advance I would like to ask them not to be so critical.

The content of your conversation needs to be something else then!

As in, your visits are negative to all, affect the kids negatively and stress us all out, so we’re meeting you half way so you can see the kids, but if you start up with the tutting, eye rolling, comments or any other such crap, we’ll be back in our car and leave you to it.

TELL them not to be critical

Or you’re leaving.

Like you would a badly behaved toddler.

I think you need to say that any hint of bad behaviour from then will mean you leave early.

@TooStressyTooMessy

You are all very sensible. I really am trying to accept that they will never be the parents I want them to be but it’s hard.

It is hard

It helps to have a lot of different strategies from the frivolous to the hardcore.

Some stuff you can dissociate yourself from and play Parent Bingo with your DH - that's 1 lie down, 4 tuts and 2 children are precious

Sometimes you can amuse yourself by writing Fuck Off silently with your tongue on the roof of your mouth - surprisingly effective

You may need emergency trips to the shops for wine

But some stuff just needs to be challenged. This is best agreed with your DH in advance so you are always working as a team. A bit like with children, you give a statement of the rules, a warning you mean business and then you must absolutely be prepared to follow through - go home from the stately home trip, turn the car around or possibly even go back to your house.

I told my ILs that anymore comments on my driving we wouldn't go out for lunch. They carried on so I pulled over and said it again. When they realised I hadn't started driving again they got scared and never said another peep. I was totally shitting myself when I did it though - but the results!

I'm not going to advise you about what to say to them, because I think you need to read 'Toxic Parents' first. The key will be to accept that the goal is to make your point (whatever that is) and not to get a certain reaction out of them, because they're unlikely to react the way you'd like them to.

We do know how terrifying this is for you. We really do

But you have to do this.