It’s me again with the critical John Lewis obsessed parents who mean well

[TooStressyTooMessy]

Hi all,

I have posted about this before (pre-Covid) under a slightly different username.

I have two DDs, age 8 and 10. Married to DH and we have been together forever (to be clear he is the father of DDs).

I used to have a great (or so I thought) relationship with my parents until I had children. They mean well and absolutely adore our DDs. HOWEVER, I find being with them incredibly stressful. They live a few hours away so are not really involved in our day-to-day lives although we speak on the phone.

They very much want to be ‘fun’ grandparents and this is where the problems start. They think we are too strict, especially DH. They do not like any kind of discipline at all, eg if we told them to use a knife and fork at the table, not to rub off from the table, asked them to help us tidy their rooms, then my parents would view that as too strict. They do not like the children to cry or be sad when they visit or we visit them. I suppose they are Disney grandparents. That would be fine, that is the joy of being grandparents. Except if we tell the kids off for anything at all then my parents eye roll, tut, and often have to go and have a lie down because they get so upset to see a child upset. I really wish I was joking. We can never play a board game or anything like that with them as they become sad if DC lose and get upset.

I am absolutely not too strict and neither is DH although he is stricter than me. I have really struggled with discipline and did a parenting course when they were younger where I was told in no uncertain tones that I needed to be stricter. So I am by no means an ogre.

Basically they hate DH (loved him pre kids), think I am too strict and not capable of parenting, and think the children are growing up in a terrible environment. There is NO abuse. They really just do seem to think that setting boundaries and parenting, eg telling a child it is bedtime and asking them to turn off the telly, asking them not to run off in a busy street (ore-Covid) is cruel.

I got lots of advice on here and actually eventually stood up to them. Told them I was an adult, DH and I are the parents not them. We saw them one more time which was tense but ok and then Covid came.

Of course Covid itself has been truly horrific. But not having to see my parents has been wonderful .

They are coming up for a weekend in May when overnight stays are allowed. I am dreading it. I am already stressed and nagging DH to fix some stuff around the house which needs to be done before they come. I times my Dad one visit and it took him seconds to criticise something from walking in. So DH and I are arguing about it which is the usual way of things and makes me stressed before I have even seen them. He is also upset as it is obvious they do not like him.

They have already suggested us going to the nearest City for a John Lewis shopping trip. I have said no and my mum was surprised and disappointed. I have already said repeatedly that a busy town centre is not a relaxing environment when they will then want to take DDs in and be surprised they want to buy everything in sight. Let alone with the Covid situation - it is not a fun experience! They live not too far from London and can easily go to John Lewis there so I am not depriving them!

I realise this is an opportunity to move forward. It has been over a year since we saw them. I am desperate not to go back to feeling like a child desperate for their approval and them making it clear they think we are bad parents. They are not involved in my parenting usually so why do I feel on show so much when they do come?

TLDR: any tips on moving forward with a more adult relationship with my parents after the natural break of lockdown.

He doesn’t care what they think of him which drives me mad as I care desperately what they think of us. I’m a total people pleaser

I’ve gone back to one of your earlier posts OP.

This sentence could describe me 15 years ago. In 2006 I sought counselling to overcome my difficulties with my parents with my DH backing me up. We changed the dynamic as a team. The first thing I did was stop seeking their approval. I stopped phoning them, I stopped suggesting meeting up etc. They were never going to approve so I stepped back. The difference was unbelievable, all of a sudden they were chasing around after me as if they wanted my approval! It was weird. But I’d stopped caring, so they didn’t get it from me. 38 years of their controlling behaviour and finally I was done.

My DH understands that I find them difficult but we carry on parenting in the way we see fit whether they approve or not. You will never get their approval, the goal posts will be moved constantly. You really need to stop caring about what they think. It was the only way forward for us.

I MIGHT visit my remaining parent later this year (if I feel like it), but if I do I will be staying in separate accommodation so that I’m not in their house coming under their scrutiny - yes it costs more money but it’s worth it for my peace of mind. My DH understands this and supports this. You should be taking his lead of not caring and then he won’t seem so strict and you won’t seem so soft on the children.

Sorry, that was longer than I intended - good luck OP

I also found this book really helpful, in conjunction with therapy, in fact my therapist recommended it, it's very good for the kinds of patterns of thinking you've got into www.amazon.es/Brilliant-Cognitive-Behavioural-Therapy-Lifeskills/dp/0273724908/ref=sr_1_2?__mk_es_ES=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=brilliant+cbt&qid=1619091400&sr=8-2

OP just be honest with them. You hold the cards, they want to see you and the children, you don't really want to see them at all so put your cards on the table, what have you got to lose? Just tell them it is lovely they want to see you all but you don't want your parenting undermined and unless they are sure they can keep their opinions to themselves they can't stay.

If you want to be kind you can say if they want to stay locally it would be fine to meet up for short visits.

If they argue just repeat. Remember they have lots to lose.

If your husband is too strict with the children when they are around that also needs addressing as it isn't fair.

OP, you say this always causes arguments with your dp when you are visiting. I wonder if it might help if you ask your dh to help you deal with the stress your parents cause - that is, don't talk to him about changing his behaviour, talk about how you feel and how he could support you in that situation. Give him something to do, helping you.

For example, how could he help you ignore your parents' comments about you being afraid of him - can he remind you that it is total nonsense, and total nonsense should not be able to hurt you?
Ask what suggestions he has for how you can respond to "No telling off" and similar comments that undermine your authority and question your ability to manage the very simplest parenting tasks. Ask if he'll stand by you and encourage you to stand up to them.

That way, not only do you have him to help you, he won't feel as powerless and unsupported by you. At present the only thing he can do is get stricter and stricter. Roping him in to help you would give him an alternative to that.

You are coming off as rather wet. You are as much of an adult as your parents. So be one. Sorry I know that's rude but you constantly say your DH should suck it up and it's basically all his fault.

In your shoes I'd take the kids minus DH and stay one night. Ask parents to drop them back after a week and stay one night.

Your kids and your parents would likely all have got over themselves after a week without you.

And you DH wouldn't feel like he had to go with you as he can't trust you to do the right thing when they are around.

The thing you need to realise is, they won't change. They don't want to.

Even when you've raised it, they turn it around on you, saying you can't cope and blaming your DH.

That's what's toxic. You will never please them. Even if your DH behaved perfectly, they'd find something to fix on. That's why your DH is always present too, they can't be trusted and you are so blind to them.

You can't change them, only your reaction to them. Please do, before it's too late for your marriage.

Stop the visit. Change it to a day thing and go from there.

"Then usually in loud whispers later things like:-
They will grow up in fear
They seemed so sad
This will damage them
Did you see how much they cried and they were just ignored"

This is outrageous, I would be utterly furious if I heard my parents saying things like that about dh and I.

My parents have very similar traits to yours though not as extreme I think. Yy to the Disney grandparents, overwhelming amounts of presents, controlling tendencies etc I always say that mine are so busy being grandparents they forget that they're parents too and never support me or try and help me in my role as a parent myself.

I've stood up to mine over the years and I do appreciate how difficult it is. However, the things above that you've overheard, I would have no hesitation in calling out the moment I heard it. I wouldn't stand for anyone slating my parenting like that, least of all the people who are supposed to love me.

Do you parents have any clue how much you were damaged by their parenting? You're terrified of the people who should have your back.

Having meet-ups like this is damaging. There's a lot of stories on here about how Disney parenting damages the kids from split families. I wouldn't be surprised at all if your kids use the same tricks as your parents (when they are teens ) so they can get their way.

Meet-ups should ideally be fab and happy but sometimes they won't be because of factors out of your control and that's fine because that is life. Nobody has amazing meet-ups every time and you must realise that your parents will never be happy.

Yanbu to expect your to be polite but yavu to expect him to collude in your insane attempts to get your parents to like you. That's damaging to your DDs and h. They will never say well Donald because they probably enjoy worrying and problems

If you had monthly meet ups for the day everyone possibly would be much happier without crying and telling off!

At least with the DC they can be warned that bad behaviour will result in leaving early!

I always say that mine are so busy being grandparents they forget that they're parents too and never support me or try and help me in my role as a parent myself.

Such a good point @ProfYaffle

You can use good behaviour for a day as incentive for an overnight trip next time.

Seriously though- what are you going to do when the kids are teens? Say they don't really want to go or become monosyllabic. Would you allow your parents emotional blackmail with them with the lying down bollocks?

In your second post you said this

I was a freakishly good child. I never saw the point of being badly behaved as it just seemed so much hassle! I’m sure I had my moments but I suspect I was quite an easy child to parent in that respect

I suspect you were conditioned into being a freakishly good child as a coping mechanism. How would your parents have behaved if you were naughty? I imagine you sticking your tongue out as a child and your father taking to his bed with a fit of the vapours!

I really feel for you, but I think your husband has it worse. If this was just once a year, yes maybe he could grit his teeth and live with it, but it isn't is it? Apart from the last year you see them regularly. And reading your replies I'm still not convinced you are really taking on board what people are saying to you here.

If they complain about it being for the day only

"Well the girls are only little and one day of not being allowed to cry and be on their best behaviour is enough"

When you have parents like this, they both infantilise you and parentify you.
So, they infantilise you by wanting you to always do what they want you to do, not letting you have your own opinions or do things differently.
But they also parentify you by making you feel overwhelmingly responsible for their happiness.
Which is a massive head fuck.
You're kept in line because if you displease them they withdraw affection and behave passive aggressivley. As a child, withdrawal of affection is THE WORST punishment. Because you depend on them totally. Withdrawal of affection is terrifying.
It's also really bad for you children to be witnessing this kind of dynamic from them.
So you are conditioned to avoid the withdrawal of affection (taking to their beds, being "disappointed" in you, silent treatment, dramatic threats along the lines of "all this stress is making me ill" etc. always for pretty trivial things and also even just going against their advice or opinions). You become OBSESSED with never doing anything to provoke withdrawal of affection (disapproval is the same thing really here). You think, if I could just...But nothing ever works because they move the goalposts. Nothing wil ever work. You can never win because the game is rigged. The only way to win is not to play.
You either stop playing by enforicng healthy boundaries (you currently have no boundaries when it comes to your parents), or you reduce contact or stop contact.
You won't want to hear those choices, I didn't want to hear it with my mother, but those are your choices.
Someone said to me on my original thread about my mother something like "you don't want to hear this right now, but push will come to shove and you will have to choose your family or your mother". The same is true for you. Don't leave it so late that the choice is made for you.

I think yes they will always worry and I will never be good enough. I always fear I am a bad mum and for some reason it really matters to me that they think I am a good parent. I don’t know exactly how as actually I think their fears for the girls are unfounded. As people say, of course they can’t have everything they want at all times and of course it is not cruel or dangerous to encourage an 8 year old to ride her bike.

Your parents have thoroughly conditioned you into thinking and subsequently believing this of you. They were the ones who installed those buttons in you along with pressing them at will. Its no surprise whatsoever to me that you are still very much mired in FOG and you still even now seek their approval (approval that they will never give you). All of this are unwanted legacies your parents bestowed upon you.

Your parents I would think have never apologised nor accepted any responsibility for their actions. I asked you earlier who drove this between your parents; it looks like your dad starts by taking himself off to his room and your mother is his enabler. Both of them feed off each other.

How emotionally mature do you think your parents are?. I would think their emotional development stopped at around the age of six.

I would also suggest you read "Will I ever be good enough?" by Karyl McBride. Its also an audiobook and widely available.

I would also urge you to read this too:-

www.eggshelltherapy.com/parentification/ particularly the section entitled Parentification; your survival mechanism

I always fear I am a bad mum and for some reason it really matters to me that they think I am a good parent.

But they aren't good parents to you are they?

I get really annoyed that DH cannot just put a smile on his face and be nice for them when they come

I think this is a huge issue. Your poor DH. If I was him, I’d be telling you to take the kids and stay with your parents. If they obviously don’t like him, they shouldn’t be staying in his/your house. They are behaving in a very strange way.

Please put him before your parents, he has done nothing wrong.

I wonder what would happen if you followed their example, and brought up your dds using the methods they use on you - passive-aggressive whispering and vague hints at dreadful but unexplained things that might happen, rather than clearly and directly telling your dds what to do and their behaviour having transparent, foreseeable consequences.

I imagine your dds would also grow up fearing dreadful but unexplained consequences and being unable to directly tell people what they think.

OP you've had some great advice on here and I hope you are starting to see things as they really are.

They have no interest in reaching a happy consensus with you and you are tying yourself in knots - and trying to get your DH and kids to tie themselves in knots - for nothing.

The only way to win this game is not to play.

I always fear I am a bad mum and for some reason it really matters to me that they think I am a good parent.

Even if your children behaves like perfect robots who didn't need disciplining ever, they will never think that you're a good parent. There's literally no point in trying as they will never consider you good enough.

I bet your girls are actually well behaved normally. They won't behave normally when your parents are around because they see you and their dad being treated like kids who are lower in the pecking order than you are.

I had this problem with mum and so do my siblings. She treats me exactly the same as she did when I was 7. I haven't spoken to her in over 20 years because I don't want her making my kids feel as worthless as she makes me feel. My siblings still see her and despite them having successful careers and lovely families, she treats them like an under 10. I'm proud of the fact that I didn't allow the cycle of dysfunction to ruin my kids.

As an aside I don't think it sounds like that they mean well at all. Considering how terrible you feel trying to be good enough, nobody is benefitting from the current status quo.

It matters to you because you have been conditioned to seek their approval for everything. If you don't have their approval, terrible unspecified things will happen. You've learned this from childhood. The implicit threat was that they would withdraw their affection and that their love was conditional. So you must keep them happy at all costs. You're not a child any more but those primeval forces are still there in your subconscious and that's why the idea of confronting them about anything is utterly terrifying and evokes blind panic, it's the child in you reacting.

Your parents are entitled to hold whatever batshit opinions they like - privately! - but it's plain rude to share negative ones with you - it's not their place.

Don't "talk to them" and expect them to change. You know already that doesn't work. You tried.

Decide between you and DH what might be passably OK and offer that as a plan and stick to it. If they behave badly in reaction, ignore/stock phrase, as you would with an awkward person at work who's asking for something outside company policy.

Your parents are not behaving well
They are responsible for their behaviour

You are responsible for your actions so do what is right

• guide your children into considerate and polite behaviour
• stay on good terms with your DH and work as a team
• be civil and warm to your parents but ignore any of their bad behaviour. Same as if one of the kids brought a friend round who whispered and sulked and whined.

You are all very sensible. I really am trying to accept that they will never be the parents I want them to be but it’s hard.