Does love come back/what do I do

[helplesshopeless]

Nc for this.

Advice needed please, I've created a huge mess and can't see a way out/what is for the best. This may be long.

I am married with a 3yo. DH has always had a nasty temper, I've suggested anger management counselling numerous times but to no avail. The last few years since having my child have been really difficult. He's generally spoken to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical). On a day to day basis we would be civil enough to eachother, but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly. We have had happy family times too and we both dote on our child.

All of this treatment from my DH culminated in my withdrawing from him and ultimately having an affair the last few months, with someone who made me feel loved and cared for. It was mainly an emotional affair but there was a small amount of physical contact (we did not have sex). This is someone that I work with, so although we're wfh at the moment, he is in team zoom meetings etc.

My DH found everything out last week. He is angry but also devastated. I have never seen him so upset and it has shocked me that he cares that much about me. He has completely woken up to how he's been treating me and is committed to having anger management therapy and working on things with me. I obviously am ashamed of what I have done and there is no excuse for my behaviour, but he does recognise that his treatment of me took me to a place where I was open to someone else. I still can't believe I had an affair because it is so against my morals and I fully deserve to be judged for it.

We are working on things and will get relationship counselling. There's a lot of self esteem issues that my husband struggles with, especially since we had our child as he's felt like he's been stuck on the outside looking in, and he thinks this is why he's been treating me how he has. I do understand this and it makes sense, but it doesn't change how he's treated me in the past and how damaging I have found it.

My husband wants me to leave my work so there's no interaction with the other man. I totally understand his point but am reluctant to do this as I'd then feel trapped.

I want to get back to a happy place with my husband. I don't want to feel trapped with him. I don't know if I can find my way back to loving him, whether all of this is coming too late after years of awful treatment. I accept I have behaved in a disgusting way and deserve all of this fall out, and am so worried about the impact on our child and how I'd manage if we separate. I am also concerned about the impact on my husband if things don't work as he has been explaining how it will crush him and he'd never be able to trust anyone again if we don't manage to work through this.

I just don't know if my heart is in this anymore, I want to be able to be happy with him and love him and our family deserves for me to work on this and fully commit to getting back on track, but I have no idea if I'll ever get back to where I need to be.

I am ashamed to admit I still have feelings for the other guy. I could obviously never be with him anyway so that is irrelevant, but it's clouding my judgement. I need to hear from people who have learnt to love their husbands again. Is that a thing? Will we ever get there?

I still can't believe any of this is happening.

I'm 3 years in, happy with someone else and still have the odd wobble about "destroying my marriage" (guess who's words those are)

I take far less shit than I used to in general now because I think I'm doing terrified self of 3 years ago a massive disservice to get back into a position where someone else is dictating my reality. It's a hard old slog though. But better than being numb in a bad marriage.

Hello everyone Sorry I am so intermittent on my updates! I am working today so managed to find some time to properly reply to the latest comments.

Firstly, @loveyourself2020 I am so thrilled to hear your update! The relief in your post is honestly palpable through your writing. I’m so happy that your children have taken it well (for the most part) and that you had a good sleep that night!! And please do not apologise for stealing any spotlight, this thread is for all of us. What is the next step for you, when will your exH be leaving the house?

@Cavagirl, I’ve been thinking a lot about what you said about being a Good Girl, and I think you’re right. I totally have that ‘identity’ and probably have throughout growing up. I have probably clung to it in the past to internally defend myself against any accusations my husband has thrown at me. And yes, that identity has definitely been tainted now, both in my own eyes and my husband’s.

@FantasticButtocks, you mentioned the provision I’m making for my daughter in terms of teaching her that she should put her own feelings first. I agree, and I think if my husband was not working on himself then that would be enough for me to end it. However, (and I know I keep saying this, but it is becoming more apparent with each day that passes), he is genuinely changing, and becoming a better person. He is reading books about what to do when your wife doesn’t love you (the first stage is give space and consistency to allow the wife to feel relaxed!), books about managing emotions, books about living life positively, etc etc. And he is fully embracing it and actually enjoying learning about himself. So, with that as the backdrop, I wouldn’t be putting the needs of a bully ahead of myself if I left – I’d be putting my needs ahead of both him (someone who is being kind and respectful) and my daughter.

@katysun I know you and others were concerned about the fact that he did not stick to the agreement of no further discussions after our last therapy session. I’m not sure why the counsellor encouraged it, but she did ask our preference and I was very clear that I wanted to go to a separate room and not discuss any further after the call – he said that he would try to do that but wasn’t sure he’d manage it, depending on how he was feeling. And sure enough, he did not manage it. My sister is staying with us from tomorrow and so he will be forced to let it go at the next one at least!

it shows to me that he cannot sit with any discomfort about his actions and felt the need to be exonerated (by you) right away - this is incredibly accurate about him as a whole, actually. He cannot be still with any emotions, he always has to act on them immediately, whether that be channelling his anger/frustration onto me (historically), or expressing xyz, looking for solutions about whatever is bothering him, and so on. I think this is the root of a lot of his problems in not managing to keep a hold of his emotions.

I think I’ve slipped backwards a few steps over the last few days. I am still clear that I need to put my feelings first, and that things are never going to be amazing with him (from my perspective, just because we are so different) but I think the less extreme things seem for me, the more difficult that acknowledgement is going to be. The more calm and pleasant our circumstances become, the more selfish it feels to up sticks purely because I don’t feel completely in love with him.

In fact, he even said to me himself, on a day when he was struggling, that he thinks I’ve realised we’re not that compatible and that’s why I’m holding back and he thought he should call it a day on that basis. When he was saying all this, he was not angry or disrespectful at all, he was just incredibly overwhelmingly sad. In that conversation my old habits of needing to reassure him, make him happy, avoid him being upset, etc., immediately kicked in and I was full of platitudes about how I wanted to keep working on things. I’m just really disappointed in myself now that I am torturing him and not able to make a decision, and am not sure what my next step is.

I guess the above point about my natural response ties in with what you were saying @Alcemeg, re being used to focusing on someone else's welfare to the exclusion of our own. It was interesting to read about your experience (and Katysun's and whatdirection's) of leaving and how difficult it was to actually acknowledge your own wants and feelings. How did you ever find the courage when you were not feeling confident or clear?! I'm not sure I'll ever get there.

Meanwhile, he’s looking for affection still, starting to make a few comments here and there, and I’m still not comfortable with it I know that would be one of the last things to come even if feelings did grow back, but he is struggling with the disparity between my behaviour with the OM, and the fact that I’m so clearly unable to be affectionate with someone who I have been with for 9 years and did love at one point.

So, in conclusion, I know you were all really pleased with my previous post and how much progress it sounded like I’d made, but I’m still just as confused as ever

@Whatdirection happy birthday for the other day - sorry to hear it was clouded by talk around your ex though. I hope you still found some time and headspace to enjoy the day peacefully with your sons

sorry @FantasticButtocks, my last sentence to you should read

So, with that as the backdrop, I wouldn’t be putting my needs ahead of those of a bully if I left – I’d be putting my needs ahead of both him (someone who is being kind and respectful) and my daughter.

hopelesshelpless l have been meaning to say for a while to look up trauma bonding. It might explain why you get so befuddled when he throws the gauntlet down and suggests you split up. It makes for interesting reading.

I also think that the fact your husband is doing all the very obvious 'work' on himself is also blindsiding you. My husband never did this as his narrative was always he had been a wonderful husband, we had had a fantastic marriage and his 'two tiny bad moments' of infidelity existed completely in the past. Therefore there was nothing to work on. I found his smugness infuriating and insulting. If he had thrown himself into improving himself, my decision to leave would have been made so much harder.

Only time will tell for you if all this furious reading in resulting in sustained committed change. Actions will speak much louder than words.

Please be aware it might be a case of much more hidden manipulative behaviour on his part, guilting you into staying as how could anyone possibly leave someone who is trying so hard? Be alert, be aware.

Well the bliss did not last very long. I was feeling great yesterday, but by the end of the day, my youngest daughter "summoned" me to talk to me. She is asking if I am sure I want to separate, am I overreacting, why do not I give it another go and stuff. She was obviously upset and I wanted to make her feel better but my therapist tells me I should not go into details of what bothers me with my husband as that would be blaming and is not good for the kids. Of course she talked to her dad and he told he that he was also surprised, that he does not know why I want to separate, that he thought we were doing ok.

I spent hours talking to her last night and was spent by the end. This morning, she said she is not feeling well and will not go to school. As a result, of course, my feeling of anxiety and guilt is back.

@Whatdirection
*He is 100% supportive of me but he painted a picture of STBX of being completely bewildered still about the split and disturbingly has this narrative of ‘I didn’t deserve this’.

Inevitably this has impacted on me and l have been having conflicting thoughts about my own behaviour. I actually feel like a naughty child who has run away from home. It feels so alien to me to defy my husband’s wishes and to put me first. I am quite a rule follower generally and always feel mortified if l am ‘told off’ for something.

I keep feeling that at any moment my STBXH will appear and tell me ‘that’s enough now and time to come home’ and l will meekly follow. It’s a weird thought and l can’t quite shake it at the moment. It’s almost like l can’t believe l have actually done this and going to follow it through*

I see quite often when this happens that guys appear to be clueless, want to take no responsibility and say they think the marriage is fine and there is no reason to break it. This is driving me crazy. My therapist says that men are often like that, more likely to be content in whatever situation the marriage is in.

I know what you mean about feeling like a naughty child especially since my STBX acts if this has nothing to do with this. It is like on a whim I just decided I do not want to be married any more. As if I have not been agonizing over this for years.

Stick with it loveyourself. She's scared of the change that's coming and wants everything to stay how it is. But of course the genie is out of the bottle now so it can't stay how it is.
Maybe ask her how she wants things to be? What would work best for her when you abd her dad live separately?

Sorry to hear that @loveyourself2020. I suppose some pushback will be inevitable when you're all facing such a huge change. I'm sure it will help her adjust to see that you are calm and sure in your decision, so that she doesn't feel like there's any wiggle room for her to work with. It's a huge positive that your older two are more accepting of the situation and hopefully they will also be a support to her. Keep going, you're doing so well!

Remember loveyourself your children need time to process and to grieve and everything will be raw for a bit. Your process has taken years but their process has only just begun.

I remember being very stung when my DS2 said he didn’t understand and that he thought my reason wasn’t ‘good enough to leave’. I responded by saying that he knew me as a person and that my innate personality was far more likely to dig in and stick with things rather than give up on a whim, therefore he had to know that l was feeling absolutely desperate and on the verge of becoming unwell and as a result l had to leave - he did seem to accept this.

Sending you strength in your tough road ahead.

Thank you all, you are so sweet. Yes, I tried to explain to her that the problems we were having have been happening for years, and that it took me a long time to make this decision. I told her that I was very unhappy for a long time.

It is unbelievable how anxious I woke up. The sickness in the pit of my stomach so unbearable. I sat down to meditate (I try to do it every morning), and could not relax. I was so tense. Then, I heard my STBX leave the house and I just felt my body relaxing, muscle by muscle. In a few seconds I just melted into my seat, quite literally, and I thought to myself, "see THIS is why you are doing it"!

Keep going loveyourself ,things will get better .Such wise posts from Quentin and Whatdirection.

My heart goes out to you helplesshopeless it really does .I have no wise words except to say that you sound such an honest person and perhaps that honesty will help you through .You can only be honest with your husband about how you appreciate how hard he is trying and how guilty it makes you feel that you are not feeling the love come back.

loveyourself one of the things a child psychologist told me was that DC’s relationship with ex was separate from my relationship with ex. That was very helpful as it allowed me permission to put boundaries around myself whilst also advocating for DC’s needs. And it gave me the language to keep the two things separate. So for your DD honestly, the best you can do i think is tell her that you still love her as does her father, but it really is between her father and you and like every situation involving two people, they will both have different views. It is not up to her to fix it and she should not take this burden on her shoulders.

As for not wanting to go to school, routine is important and that will give her security.

In terms of him stating that you are not compatible helplesshopeless and thinking you should separate, you seeking to reassure him that no, that was not the case must be quite well ingrained if he has always seen you as the sponge for and soother of his emotions. To actually say, yes, I am sorry, I would like this to work but deep down I know you are correct, there is too much water under the bridge (incompatible makes it sound like there were no behavioural issues leading to this situation, of course) would be to undo years of conditioning in one fell swoop - that is the first thing, and the second is, he framed it in a way which does not fit really the situation so I would imagine you were quite wrong-footed to start with - ie no, it was not that you were incompatible (what would have compatible looked like here? Enjoying being subject to his tempers?), but that a defined set of behaviours have caused issues. Is he saying he would have been better tempered if you had been more compatible? It is an excuse in a way.

@KatySun

loveyourself one of the things a child psychologist told me was that DC’s relationship with ex was separate from my relationship with ex. That was very helpful as it allowed me permission to put boundaries around myself whilst also advocating for DC’s needs. And it gave me the language to keep the two things separate. So for your DD honestly, the best you can do i think is tell her that you still love her as does her father, but it really is between her father and you and like every situation involving two people, they will both have different views. It is not up to her to fix it and she should not take this burden on her shoulders.

As for not wanting to go to school, routine is important and that will give her security.

Thank you @KatySun, yes, I said something around these lines, that what was happening was between me and her dad and that as a child she is not responsible for fixing this. We need to take care of them not the other way around. As for that I love her as well as her dad and this will never change.

@helplesshopeless
It is really admirable to see how hard you are trying to fix your marriage, how much you appreciate all that your husband is doing right now. I think that all of us here are rooting for you, no matter what you decide to do. You can see by some of ours experiences that brake ups are hard, really hard. However, it is my opinion that once you start noticing that your relationship is not healthy, there is no going back. Both you and your husband will keep going back to that moment, also your senses kind of sharpen and you become more alert and more aware of any nuance in other persons behavior that proves that something is wrong. In other words, there is no "unseeing" once you see, once you open your eyes and see that there is a problem. That is what happened to me anyway. Even though I am struggling now with all this, my guilt, kids, worries about the future, I just do not see us patching things up.

I hope you soon find some clarity and you get to a better place wherever it is. Thinking of you.

@KatySun

loveyourself one of the things a child psychologist told me was that DC’s relationship with ex was separate from my relationship with ex. That was very helpful as it allowed me permission to put boundaries around myself whilst also advocating for DC’s needs. And it gave me the language to keep the two things separate. So for your DD honestly, the best you can do i think is tell her that you still love her as does her father, but it really is between her father and you and like every situation involving two people, they will both have different views. It is not up to her to fix it and she should not take this burden on her shoulders.

As for not wanting to go to school, routine is important and that will give her security.

I really agree with this. Do not in any way start discussing your marriage with your daughter, bar that you have not been happy and this is best.

Your husband is happy to manipulate your children, play victim, and claim that this has all come out of nowhere.

This is why your daughter has approached you as she is listening to her father playing "shell shocked" at this announcement.

Your daughter needs reassurance that you will both love her.

School is a very important routine at this time but please give the school a heads up about what is going on at home.

Stay strong.

@billy1966
Thank you for your support.

I don't know what to say here, but didn't want to just close MN down and go. I really hope all of us stuck in limbo can find a way through to happier times. I feel utterly paralysed by it all and am so scared of running out of time and waking up one day at 80 and still stuck unhappy with my life passed by. I too am the 'good girl' and cannot for the life of me let go of it and scream from the rooftops that I want more than just keeping everyone else happy. Lots of love to you all xxx

I meant to tag you there @Cavagirl and @helplesshopeless about the 'good girl' thing. FFS, one time at school I took some colouring pens and hid them in my bag so for once in my life I would actually get into trouble, and when someone told the teacher who had the pens, she refused to believe it was me, and the other girl got sent out of the class!!!!
Sometimes this is why I do want to reveal that I had a OM so that DH will realise the seriousness of the situation, and that I'm actually a human being.
A woman, ffs.

19Bears - so much good and kind advice on this thread .Your husband sounds very odd indeed and as though he's only living for himself .

I so hope you can find your way to leave him .You know you should .

Can't remember if I posted it upthread but a big turning point for me was my therapist sharing a list of basic human rights with me. I can only find it online as part of this article so I'm linking the article just for that list . I find it quite grounding to look at if I think I'm being unreasonable about my boundaries

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/communication-success/201406/how-spot-and-stop-manipulators

@QuentinBunbury
Wow, yes, this is it exactly. Thank you for sharing.

@QuentinBunbury
I also liked this: Consider your relationship with the manipulator, and ask the following questions:

-Am I being treated with genuine respect?
-Are this person’s expectations and demands of me reasonable?

• Is the giving in this relationship primarily one way or two ways? -Ultimately, do I feel good about myself in this relationship?

@helplesshopeless

sorry *@FantasticButtocks*, my last sentence to you should read

So, with that as the backdrop, I wouldn’t be putting my needs ahead of those of a bully if I left – I’d be putting my needs ahead of both him (someone who is being kind and respectful) and my daughter.

Apologies if I said the wrong thing.

So, I guess you mean that you believe he isn't a bully now.

But he's still trying to get you to do and say things you're uncomfortable with, and despite him reading books that advise him to give you space, it doesn't sound as though he's actually doing that.

But if you're satisfied he has changed and is now a good person, then if you still don't love him and you agree to separate, surely he will join with you to make sure it's as easy as possible for you and your daughter? As a good man and a non-bully, he will want to cooperate in working out ways for you to both work together for your child's happy upbringing, which includes not having to live with parents whose relationship is still a battleground post separation.

Let's hope his changes and improvements run deep enough, and that if he doesn't get the outcome he's hoping for, he doesn't revert to his past behaviour.

I do hope you can work things out