Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Does love come back/what do I do

999 replies

helplesshopeless · 06/04/2021 10:03

Nc for this.

Advice needed please, I've created a huge mess and can't see a way out/what is for the best. This may be long.

I am married with a 3yo. DH has always had a nasty temper, I've suggested anger management counselling numerous times but to no avail. The last few years since having my child have been really difficult. He's generally spoken to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical). On a day to day basis we would be civil enough to eachother, but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly. We have had happy family times too and we both dote on our child.

All of this treatment from my DH culminated in my withdrawing from him and ultimately having an affair the last few months, with someone who made me feel loved and cared for. It was mainly an emotional affair but there was a small amount of physical contact (we did not have sex). This is someone that I work with, so although we're wfh at the moment, he is in team zoom meetings etc.

My DH found everything out last week. He is angry but also devastated. I have never seen him so upset and it has shocked me that he cares that much about me. He has completely woken up to how he's been treating me and is committed to having anger management therapy and working on things with me. I obviously am ashamed of what I have done and there is no excuse for my behaviour, but he does recognise that his treatment of me took me to a place where I was open to someone else. I still can't believe I had an affair because it is so against my morals and I fully deserve to be judged for it.

We are working on things and will get relationship counselling. There's a lot of self esteem issues that my husband struggles with, especially since we had our child as he's felt like he's been stuck on the outside looking in, and he thinks this is why he's been treating me how he has. I do understand this and it makes sense, but it doesn't change how he's treated me in the past and how damaging I have found it.

My husband wants me to leave my work so there's no interaction with the other man. I totally understand his point but am reluctant to do this as I'd then feel trapped.

I want to get back to a happy place with my husband. I don't want to feel trapped with him. I don't know if I can find my way back to loving him, whether all of this is coming too late after years of awful treatment. I accept I have behaved in a disgusting way and deserve all of this fall out, and am so worried about the impact on our child and how I'd manage if we separate. I am also concerned about the impact on my husband if things don't work as he has been explaining how it will crush him and he'd never be able to trust anyone again if we don't manage to work through this.

I just don't know if my heart is in this anymore, I want to be able to be happy with him and love him and our family deserves for me to work on this and fully commit to getting back on track, but I have no idea if I'll ever get back to where I need to be.

I am ashamed to admit I still have feelings for the other guy. I could obviously never be with him anyway so that is irrelevant, but it's clouding my judgement. I need to hear from people who have learnt to love their husbands again. Is that a thing? Will we ever get there?

I still can't believe any of this is happening.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
loveyourself2020 · 02/06/2021 18:39

@Alcemeg
You are quickly becoming my favorite author to read. Made me laugh out loud a few times today and I thank you for it. Flowers

Otherwise, I am home now, my STBX sour face makes me want to vomit. However, we are getting ready to tell the kids, which I am really eager to do, but obviously terrified of as well. I do feel that no matter what happens and how they take it it will be onwards and upwards from there. Grin

Alcemeg · 02/06/2021 18:49

@TheThermalStair that's genius and worth the wait!

@loveyourself2020 thank you! Flowers
OMG, good luck for telling the kids. Are you curious to know how much they might already be aware of? You're absolutely right to know that it's all onwards and upwards once this is done. You've already been so brave! You've got this!

@Whatdirection
You wrote about your kids: They are shocked but ok. Still adjusting. They both think my XH has really messed up but feel very sorry for him. I struggle with that a bit. I found even though you dread telling people- it’s a relief in the end as you get extra support.
That made me feel sad for you. The trouble is, they're hardwired to feel sorry for him -- he's their dad (and they might have seen you feeling sorry for him over the years!), but it doesn't necessarily mean they take his side. I'm sure they are, or will be, very glad that you protected yourself.

Whatdirection · 02/06/2021 20:19

@loveyourself2020 thinking of you at this difficult moment - you will get through it and it will be a relief to be authentic with them. For me it was the biggest hurdle after having left.

Thank you for your kind words @Alcemeg sometimes it feels like he gets all the sympathy as he still wants us to try again. I think the boys sense my relief about being away from him so don't feel so bad for me.

KatySun · 02/06/2021 20:37

loveyourself Flowers hope everything goes as well as it can this evening.

loveyourself2020 · 02/06/2021 20:47

Thank you all for your lovely messages. It may not be happening this evening though as we have to make sure everyone is home, but definitely by the end of the week.

helplesshopeless · 03/06/2021 06:44

I only have a quick minute now as with my daughter today, so will reply properly tomorrow! But wanted to say a few quick things:

  1. I really hope I don't offend anyone when I ramble on about 'broken homes' - that is my own thing, probably due to my obsession with having a perfect nuclear family when I was younger. I absolutely don't judge or see it as a bad thing when I look at other family arrangements.

  2. @loveyourself2020 - wishing you so much luck, and sending oodles and oomph and strength for telling your children this week! 
    I hope it goes as well as can be expected.

  3. @alcemeg - you are absolutely cracking me up with your wedding chat 😆

Loads of other really helpful posts that I want to properly reflect on and respond to when I have a decent amount of time, thank you all! Wishing you a lovely Thursday Thanks

OP posts:
helplesshopeless · 03/06/2021 07:14

*oodles OF oomph that should say... ☺️

OP posts:
KatySun · 03/06/2021 21:09

I hope the couples counselling is useful this evening in some way.

Two things stick out at me, which I hope you don’t mind me picking up on.

The first is that you say you are seen as quite ‘pure’ in a way. Which is being on something of a pedestal. And yet, at the same time, your husband is painting a picture of you being a flirt when you first met and using that to justify his controlling behaviour. So something does not add up (without going into whether you think sex outside of marriage really should be talked of in the language of purity and impurity - which is a bit Victorian).

The second is that having a perfect nuclear family was an obsession with you when you were younger and this is why separation seems to you like failure (I paraphrase). It seems to me that this gives your husband enormous leverage as he must know how important this is to you. This is precisely why emotional manipulation about your daughter and name-calling about your behaviour works. Because the emotional idea of an intact family has salience for you. This comes back to what I was saying a while back about knowing your own values. So yours are purity and having an intact nuclear family. This in part explains why he got away with so much for so long, because the idea of a family was more important than the reality of its functioning. It also explains why calling you things like a slut hits home and you internalise it, rather than see it as the abuse that it is.

None of which is to say your values are wrong, just that he knows how to use them.

Alcemeg · 03/06/2021 21:25

I'm so in awe of everyone else's posts that I really, truly, can't wait for that wedding reception. Apart from all the deliciously elegant dresses, scrumptious cake and endless champagne to celebrate the true happiness (at last!!!) of OP Halo, we will have that campfire to gather round afterwards, playing Bastard Bingo and just revelling in the bliss of lives lived free of unnecessary anguish. Flowers Wine Cake Star

helplesshopeless · 05/06/2021 08:38

Whenever your husband tells you what other people are going to think of you, he is wrong. Because what's missing from his horribly distorted perspective is that everyone loves, trusts and understands you. They appreciate and understand you far better than you can possibly realise. Unfortunately, you found the one person who doesn't love, trust or understand you AT ALL, and never will...and you went and married him!!!!!! 😋 and over the years you've just forgotten that it's normal to be trusted and understood.

That's lovely, thank you. Yes, I know that everyone that really knows me and loves me will not let me down and will continue to support me (even if they are surprised at the news!). Unfortunately, my husband used to work where I do currently and so has some friends there still, and he will definitely spread all the sordid details around if we do split. I suppose I will just have to brazen it out and continue to utilise the working from home arrangements to make it manageable!

Do you remember what YOUR own truth is? You don't love this ghastly person who is making your life a misery. And no one will be surprised at that.

Yes, you're right. Although I do think that his friends, for example, won't have seen this side of him, so they won't get it. At the end of the day though, even if there wasn't all of the verbal abuse and the affair, we are just very different people, and he will probably never be on the same page as me, and that is becoming more and more clear as time goes on. Unfortunately we are forever intertwined now and obviously have a huge common interest in our daughter, so it's tricky to see that as separate from everything else that we are lacking.

I think your relationship dynamic is such that you both assume good behaviour is your default - maybe even your natural - state. Any step you make away from perfection - however small - is very harshly judged by both you and your husband. On the other hand your husband has you convinced that any efforts - however small - he makes TOWARDS perfection should be rewarded, and the rest of his behaviour ignored/forgiven/forgotten. It's like a mirror image rather than an equal expectation of each other.

@thermalstair that is so so insightful! Thinking about it, that has been the pattern throughout our relationship. Any mis-step by me and he would come down on me like a ton of bricks (which has made me very defensive over time, and that does annoy him), but if I challenged him on anything at all then I would be met with a load of abuse (e.g. if I caught him in a bad mood, he’d call me a battleaxe, old trout(!), and so on!).

@Katysun – thank you for your thoughts. You’re right, he knows exactly how to twist the knife and he always has been good at that. He is actually very insightful in picking out faults and twisting things so that it really hurts!

Couples counselling went ok the other night, but it wasn’t a particularly helpful session. We focussed on my husband’s past behaviour (next week it’ll be the affair). We ended up having a big argument (during the session!) over my apparent ‘flirtiness’ and it was just incredibly infuriating. He did say a few things that I saw the counsellor raise her eyebrows at, around me failing to properly address his behaviour and instead checking out of the marriage, and at one point he started speaking in a very angry way saying he refused to take all of the blame for everything that had happened. At the end of the call we agreed with the counsellor that we wouldn’t continue discussions offline, but then my husband basically made me talk to him for another hour – but this actually turned out to be quite a good discussion. He was very calm and asked me to explain any other points about his behaviour that I had been thinking about in my individual sessions or general pondering, so that he could fully understand everything. I provided a few examples of recent discussions where I said I felt he had been emotionally manipulative, and he agreed that that was what he had been doing and he needed to stop it. I think off the back of that discussion, because he thinks he’s fully understood all of his past behaviour, he is hoping I will stop thinking about the past and work with him on moving forward together. He is really genuinely trying and is so keen to make me happy. But as I keep saying, it takes me back to my initial issue of whether I can love him again.

I think though, that I have my eyes wide open now (or am at least peeping through them!) and am trying to admit to myself that he is not someone who can ever make me completely happy, even when he is being his best self. That is a really hard thing to admit, partly because acknowledging it and doing something about it means I need to actually put myself and my feelings first, which I am not sure I can do.

Anyway, I hope you all have a lovely weekend and it is as sunny wherever you all are as it is here Flowers

@loveyourself2020 continuing to think of you - hope you are doing ok.

OP posts:
Cavagirl · 05/06/2021 09:38

Gosh OP, you sound like a totally different person to the beginning of this thread, really. So much stronger. Bloody well done Flowers

That is a really hard thing to admit, partly because acknowledging it and doing something about it means I need to actually put myself and my feelings first, which I am not sure I can do

Yes - and this is what I think you should focus on working through with your individual counsellor. Because I suspect it underlies a lot -
Why is the "perfect nuclear family" your ideal
Why you say "I can't believe I put up with this crap" example after example of his bad behaviour many years ago
Why you are reluctant to ask for help from friends and family
Why you are seen as "pure" and your behaviour should be perfect
Etc etc

I suspect a lot of this is around long held expectations of being a Good Girl, and doing what Good Girls are expected to do, and that defines a lot of your identity. Which is why you find it so difficult that you, a Good Girl, had an affair and all the ideas, consequences and connotations that come with that. Because it fundamentally challenges your own sense of self. And that's why your H keeps beating you with that stick - both because he knows it really wounds you and also because he's not sure who you are now either. He signed up for a Good Girl, who'd play by the his rules, and Behave Nicely, but now you've malfunctioned!

Anyway, this is my theory and could be nonsense. But digging up why you find it so difficult to prioritise yourself I think would be a very useful think to work through.

billy1966 · 05/06/2021 10:05

OP,
So many great posts on this thread and YOUR last one screams growth.

I think you will get to that better place.

I think you are capable of being compassionate and forgiving of yourself.

I really hope you can be for yourself and your daughter.

She deserves to be reared by a mother who knows her value and feels deserving of kindness.

Your husband is an absolute terrorist and I do not judge you for one minute.

Continue to do the individual counselling.

I wouldn't believe one word from your husbands mouth, he is a very bad, manipulative person.

If you were my daughter I would be beyond horrified for you and your child.

You both deserve so much better.Flowers

KatySun · 05/06/2021 10:09

Sound advice cavagirl

It struck me reading it that your point about him not knowing who helplesshopeless is any more is interesting. It is why the apparent ‘flirtiness’ going back to the start of their relationship has made an appearance now. It is re-writing history to demonstrate - in his narrative - that helplesshopeless has always been on the look out for men. Instead of her affair being a bit of a cry for help from his behaviour, it is being recast as the inevitable conclusion of innate characteristics which he has apparently suffered from. Ones which oddly enough, he does not seem to have mentioned until recently, now that these apparent characteristics can be used to deflect from discussion of his own behaviour. Funny that.

KatySun · 05/06/2021 10:10

Sorry helplesshopeless that seems like a post about you, not too you! Badly phrased. I do have more to add but am short of time.

Bananarice · 05/06/2021 10:41

I don't think you want to save the marriage. You even refusing to swap your job to somewhere om is not working. You admit you have feelings for the om.

Your relationship with your dh sounds abusive. I would just leave it.

FantasticButtocks · 05/06/2021 11:11

@helplesshopeless

am trying to admit to myself that he is not someone who can ever make me completely happy, even when he is being his best self. That is a really hard thing to admit, partly because acknowledging it and doing something about it means I need to actually put myself and my feelings first, which I am not sure I can do.

Think about what provision you are making for your daughter here, what attitudes you are teaching her - if you demonstrate that putting your own feelings first, before the feelings and wants of an abusive bully, is wrong, then are you saying to her that she should always put her own feelings second?? That if she ends up in an unhappy or unhealthy relationship she needs to just suppress her own feelings and get on with it? So she doesn't look bad to others?

When you tell yourself that staying with him is for her sake, maybe check whether long term you are actually doing her any favours. Or whether you are setting her up for a similar scenario when she's an adult.

Would he want his daughter to accept this kind of shit from a man?

Alcemeg · 05/06/2021 14:24

I think though, that I have my eyes wide open now (or am at least peeping through them!) and am trying to admit to myself that he is not someone who can ever make me completely happy, even when he is being his best self. That is a really hard thing to admit, partly because acknowledging it and doing something about it means I need to actually put myself and my feelings first, which I am not sure I can do.

Permitting yourself this one uncensored idea is the crucial first step. The rest will follow. Just keep going, keep breathing deep and putting one foot in front of the other. Well done OP Flowers

KatySun · 05/06/2021 14:34

Hello again, the other thing I wanted to say is about this: ‘he made me ... explain any other points about his behaviour that I had been thinking about or mentioned in my individual session’ (possibly not an exact quote as on phone). This went on for an hour after the counsellor had expressly asked you both not to continue the discussion after you signed out of the session. So I think part of the reason for her asking you not to continue the discussion was because she does need to have all the information to hand, because otherwise he can triangulate the two of you. There are now two conversations going on - one which your counsellor is mediating with the hope of keeping an equal playing field, and the other which he is leading where he is pushing into your private conversation in your individual session. The purpose of this second conversation is to soothe his own emotions and make him feel in control again.

Good that you call it a helpful conversation but my rather cynical response was to think it is far too early to say whether it was helpful or whether there is now simply more ammunition for him to brood over and throw back at you later on. Time will tell. But pushing you into an hour long conversation when you had both agreed not to discuss matters is bullying, in my opinion, and shows to me that he cannot sit with any discomfort about his own actions and felt the need to be exonerated (by you) right away. Which worked because you finish off by noting how much he is genuinely trying. But not so much he respects your boundaries and the request of the counsellor above his own needs.

I suspect the same will happen next week after the session about the affair, because the precedent is there not to stop when you sign off.

Alcemeg · 05/06/2021 14:45

Oh gosh @KatySun
I suspect the same will happen next week after the session about the affair, because the precedent is there not to stop when you sign off.

True, and scary. OP can you arrange to be elsewhere after that session, e.g. go to stay with your parents?

FantasticButtocks · 05/06/2021 15:01

@Alcemeg

Oh gosh *@KatySun* I suspect the same will happen next week after the session about the affair, because the precedent is there not to stop when you sign off.

True, and scary. OP can you arrange to be elsewhere after that session, e.g. go to stay with your parents?

@helplesshopeless
Make sure that in the next session you tell the therapist that he was unable to stick to the agreement to not continue with the conversation outside the therapy session. Just make sure it's stated, so that she can reiterate the agreement, and the following session she can ask him if he's done it again.

19Bears · 05/06/2021 16:21

Hi @helplesshopeless I've been trying to keep up with your thread and have seen your update today. You do sound so much stronger than where you were at the start, and that really inspired me. I need to build up my strength as I am in a similar position. The part where you said the slightest thing you do will be jumped on immediately by DH, whereas anything you say to him about his behaviour is called nagging, that really resonated with me. It's absolutely the same here, and I feel ground down by it, as if I just have to put up and shut up. It feels normal now after all these years. But reading the comments here from a lot of wise women, makes me see that is wrong and it's time for me to speak up. However, I too had an affair and feel now that therefore I have done the worst thing, and any part of dh's behaviour is automatically excused. How are you dealing with this? He doesn't know about it, so we haven't been able to deal with it. I'm willing to admit to it and take the consequences, but both my counsellor and doctor have said there's no point in admitting to it as it will only cause him pain, especially when I don't want to fix it, I want to end the marriage. Not to go to this other person, he's gone now, but I feel I need to explain I am still in love with this person and I can't change how I feel. I don't love DH, and that's it. What do I do? Sorry to hijack the post OP, but you've had so much good advice, I'm hoping to get some for myself x

billy1966 · 05/06/2021 18:34

Very important to tell the therapist, despite her specific request to NOT discuss things further, he wouldn't let it go and insisted.

A clear example of everything being on his terms.
A complete inability for anyone else to control a situation.

Odious creature.
She really needs this information and will see clearly what ir represents.

loveyourself2020 · 05/06/2021 19:05

Dear OP, thank you so much for thinking of me, you are so kind and compassionate it actually shines through every time you post. I agree with the posters that this post of yours feels different. You sound so much stronger, calmer and confident. I love that you said how it may be difficult for you to put your feelings first, and I personally think that this is the problem for most of us. Once, (possibly with the help of a counselor) you get to a point where you acknowledge that you deserve to be happy, that your happiness, your peace, your freedom to make your life choices matter, that you are in fact responsible for your life, your happiness, your future, that you have to put YOU first, at least sometimes, this is when the change starts. This is how it started with me.

We are raised to think that as women we have to sacrifice for others, parents, siblings, husband, kids, heck even husband’s family. As long as your family is taken care of and happy, you should be happy too, right? Well, no, not right. By the time we realized that, although making other people happy does make us happy too, in order to truly be happy we have to take care of our own needs as well. Like I said before, just do not make any changes right now that will make your possible separation harder and keep going to these counseling sessions and take care of yourself OP, you deserve it.

Alcemeg · 05/06/2021 19:40

@loveyourself2020 did you tell the kids yet? Flowers

We are raised to think that as women we have to sacrifice for others, parents, siblings, husband, kids, heck even husband’s family...
My counsellor commented that I even put the cat's needs above my own. Heck, anything within a 10-mile radius that had a pulse was automatically more important than me! 😃

Mind you, that was one fantastic cat. I'd probably do the same now! 😎 💗

@19Bears, there is no easy way to start that difficult conversation. Except ... just as I typed that, it occurred to me that it might help not to think of it as a conversation! In these relationships, we get so used to rehearsing what we're going to say, in the desperate hope that this will finally be the one time we can get DH to see our point of view.

I suppose it might help to think of it as a statement, not a conversation. Telling someone you don't love them is not up for debate, it's just stating the facts, along with stating what you plan to do about it. We are no longer seeking their understanding or consent. It might be more apt to say that we have given up seeking their understanding; if that had ever been possible, we wouldn't be in this situation.

You also need to forget about trying to make it easy for them. It's going to be hard, because they will do their best to make it difficult. Whatever you say is not going to go down well. And you'll probably have to say it many times, which will not be fun.

So there is no right way of doing it, just as there are no right things to say. Just be sincere and do it in whatever way feels possible for you to do. The power balance isn't level, so be kind to yourself. For various reasons I ended up breaking the news to my ex-DH by fax, which he kept mentioning as proof of what a heartless bitch/crazed lunatic I was being. Yet, I now realise, I would have used a much more humane approach if I'd been capable of standing my ground with him and feeling heard/seen, instead of being belittled and confused.

This might sound a bit abstract, but I decided to focus on loyalty to TRUTH however painful rather than loyalty to him.

Doubting yourself and feeling awful about it all is inevitable, especially as they will heap on the guilt and push every button they can to make you feel worse.

I think I fell into the trap of making it all even harder for myself by worrying about his feelings all the time. In retrospect, I should have been more worried about my own. I was almost hysterical with the anguish of "causing him pain" and yet, with the benefit of safety and a lot of hindsight, I now see the whole situation could have been so much less painful if he hadn't enjoyed cranking up the tension so much.

Alcemeg · 05/06/2021 19:59

Oh! sorry, just thought of another thing.

It's very hard, when all you've known is an abusive relationship, to imagine what a healthy one would look and feel like.

If I were to tell my now-DH that I didn't love him any more and was planning to leave, he'd be sorry, of course, because he loves me; but his response would be along the lines of "I'm so sorry to hear that. This is going to be hard, but let's do our best to make the next steps as positive as we can for each other."

Instead, an abuser will rant and blame and mock so that you start doubting your own sanity.

Try to bear in mind that he is doing this because he doesn't think your feelings matter at all. (As far as he's concerned, you should continue to provide normal service whether you love him or not.)

What makes it possible for him to treat you this way is that YOU don't think your feelings matter, either.

You just have to "fake it till you make it" -- keep acting as though your own feelings matter, even if you don't really believe it. It can help to step outside yourself and try to imagine you're someone else, someone you care about, e.g. sister, mother. That can help you to feel the necessary compassion for yourself.

It's all a bit of a trick with smoke and mirrors. You just have to last it out, knowing that eventually (probably not until some time after separating) you will understand better why it all had to be done. In fact, it's quite likely you'll wonder how/why you managed to put up with such a miserable existence for so long. By the time you realise this, you're well on your way to recovery. You'll be back in the world of real feelings and clear thoughts, not a numb cloud of confusion and despair. I promise you it's worth it. Flowers

Swipe left for the next trending thread