Does love come back/what do I do

[helplesshopeless]

Nc for this.

Advice needed please, I've created a huge mess and can't see a way out/what is for the best. This may be long.

I am married with a 3yo. DH has always had a nasty temper, I've suggested anger management counselling numerous times but to no avail. The last few years since having my child have been really difficult. He's generally spoken to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical). On a day to day basis we would be civil enough to eachother, but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly. We have had happy family times too and we both dote on our child.

All of this treatment from my DH culminated in my withdrawing from him and ultimately having an affair the last few months, with someone who made me feel loved and cared for. It was mainly an emotional affair but there was a small amount of physical contact (we did not have sex). This is someone that I work with, so although we're wfh at the moment, he is in team zoom meetings etc.

My DH found everything out last week. He is angry but also devastated. I have never seen him so upset and it has shocked me that he cares that much about me. He has completely woken up to how he's been treating me and is committed to having anger management therapy and working on things with me. I obviously am ashamed of what I have done and there is no excuse for my behaviour, but he does recognise that his treatment of me took me to a place where I was open to someone else. I still can't believe I had an affair because it is so against my morals and I fully deserve to be judged for it.

We are working on things and will get relationship counselling. There's a lot of self esteem issues that my husband struggles with, especially since we had our child as he's felt like he's been stuck on the outside looking in, and he thinks this is why he's been treating me how he has. I do understand this and it makes sense, but it doesn't change how he's treated me in the past and how damaging I have found it.

My husband wants me to leave my work so there's no interaction with the other man. I totally understand his point but am reluctant to do this as I'd then feel trapped.

I want to get back to a happy place with my husband. I don't want to feel trapped with him. I don't know if I can find my way back to loving him, whether all of this is coming too late after years of awful treatment. I accept I have behaved in a disgusting way and deserve all of this fall out, and am so worried about the impact on our child and how I'd manage if we separate. I am also concerned about the impact on my husband if things don't work as he has been explaining how it will crush him and he'd never be able to trust anyone again if we don't manage to work through this.

I just don't know if my heart is in this anymore, I want to be able to be happy with him and love him and our family deserves for me to work on this and fully commit to getting back on track, but I have no idea if I'll ever get back to where I need to be.

I am ashamed to admit I still have feelings for the other guy. I could obviously never be with him anyway so that is irrelevant, but it's clouding my judgement. I need to hear from people who have learnt to love their husbands again. Is that a thing? Will we ever get there?

I still can't believe any of this is happening.

For the record, this:

My husband has always been a tiny bit jealous/controlling - for example I'd get arsey comments after chatting to the window cleaner, or if I didn't engage with him sufficiently on a WhatsApp convo when on a night out with my friends

is also highly controlling and not remotely normal for any healthy relationship.

He coercively controlled you before, he's just become more brazen about it because your "affair" he believes gives him free reign to ramp it up.

Absolutely cava girl. My partner would only be annoyed if I was on a night out and had accidentally stood him up in another bar... and even then he’d just laugh at me. The window cleaner thing is just barmy OP. Fully barmy.

When you speak to your counsellor again maybe tell her that you’ve thought again about her questions. It’ll show you’re changing your thinking

My husband has always been a tiny bit jealous/controlling - for example I'd get arsey comments after chatting to the window cleaner, or if I didn't engage with him sufficiently on a WhatsApp convo when on a night out with my friends
Every new post revelation goes on to prove he is controlling you,
You do know when you are out with friends, you don't have to respond to needy WhatsApp messages? the whole point of going out, is to see other people, talk to & meet other friends... its called socializing.
As for chatting up the plumber, .... offering him a cup of tea & a biscuit. its just being friendly & polite... (& likely to inspire them to do a good job)
He is madly insecure, & has been trying to curtail any interaction for so long you take it as normal.
It's not. He should encourage you to go out, even sleep over at friends house if drunk or simply having a good time.
Do you see how far from this your prison is ?

IF you loved your husband to bits, realised your affair was a massive mistake and your partner had always been kind and decent to you THEN there might have to be a period of time where you bend over backwards to reassure your partner in order to build up trust again. This may mean not going anywhere where you may bump into OM for example.

You're absolutely right. Even now actually I wouldn't go anywhere where I might reasonably bump into OM as I appreciate that is being disrespectful to my husbands feelings. However, he's taking it further in that he doesn't want me to go out for drinks anywhere (not just somewhere I might bump into him), as he would be worried I'd arranged to meet up with him while out with friends. Not sure why a meal out is ok but not drinks, under that reasoning, but that seems to be where his line is.

Re my numbness and being shut down in response to trauma, that is exactly what my therapist said, so you are very wise whatdirection!

katysun unfortunately I have no way of contacting our couples counsellor directly as it's arranged through a company. But I think I've told her enough and anything else will hopefully become apparent through the upcoming sessions. Just couldn't believe I'd misinterpreted her questions so badly!

Please read back what you've just written. You've essentially said, my husband abuses me but I've driven him to it by having an affair.

I know you're right. Unfortunately my husband feels bolstered by everything he has read about how to recover from your partner having an affair - eg the guilty party has to give up any right to privacy (which is fine, I have nothing to hide) while the injured party heals. So he feels very much that he is being reasonable in all of his demands based on what he has been reading.

He coercively controlled you before, he's just become more brazen about it because your "affair" he believes gives him free reign to ramp it up.

I can't quite believe I used to put up with it to be honest. I'd forgotten about that side of things as I've not had any nights out since my daughter was born and so there's been no opportunity for that behaviour to be displayed. But yes, it felt very squashifying at the time. It's only since getting to know the OM that I was able to take a step back and see how low the bar had been for how I had been treated.

You do know when you are out with friends, you don't have to respond to needy WhatsApp messages? the whole point of going out, is to see other people, talk to & meet other friends... its called socializing

Yes, I hated that! I remember apologising to my friends saying I just needed to quickly send a few more messages and so on...felt so rude!

Oh OP, I've been lurking here for a while and I felt I had to respond after your last updates.

He will never be ok with splitting up, he will be awful no matter what you do because THAT'S WHO HE IS.
There's no point in tying yourself in knots trying to be reasonable to make him see your point of view. He will just keep changing the goalposts because that is how he keeps you where he wants you. He will never see your point of view, because he is only concerned with how this affects him.
Have you spoken in counselling about his threats of what will happen if you split?
Someone who loves you and wants to work on it wouldn't try to frighten you into staying by making threats. They would tell you they love you and were willing to do what it takes to show you.
How can anyone make up their mind honestly, if they are doing so because of fear? Because of actual threats of how badly you will be treated if you don't DO AS YOU ARE TOLD.
Which all tells me that you have two choices.
Stay and be abused or leave and yes it will be hard but you will have your own home and life away from him.

Honestly, he makes me sick.
Sending you a huge unmumsnetty hug and all the other amazing, wise people on this thread.

So it seems to me that you objectively know what is going on here - coercive control. He has used various ways of keeping you in line, through temper and anger before and now he is using your affair as justification. So there is a pattern of behaviour here. I agree with the poster who said that your affair was in one way or another seeking a way out of this, but if you take that out the picture, the pattern of behaviour is still there.

So you objectively know what is going on here but then you add in a ‘but’ to try and minimise it. But he is nice sometimes, but he is good with our daughter (well, she is little so not testing any boundaries yet), but I don’t want to break up the family, but I had an affair so that is why. None of these things negate the fact that it is coercive control.

The reason a meal is okay but not drinks is because he does not want it to be too obvious that he is unreasonable.

If you can see that, that is good. It does not help you leave, if that is what you want to do, but it does help you recognise your predicament. How far off are you from accepting that this situation will not change and it is not in your power to change it? Or do you realise that anyway, but the issue is more fear about leaving?

Agree with the above that your two examples of 'mild' controlling behaviour are real red flags.

I have been doing a lot of work on my boundaries recently and one thing that has been a revelation for me is that we are not responsible for anyone else's feelings. We do need to be accountable for our actions though.

I am terrible for this and if l feel l have hurt or upset anyone's feelings l feel very guilty.

The problem with this is that you become very easily manipulated and find it difficult to separate yourself from others.

I feel this happening to you Op. You are not responsible for your partner's feelings but you are behaving as if you are. This is keeping you hostage to your current situation especially with the heightened emotions surrounding your affair.

I am still at the beginning of my journey on this one but already it's making a difference to me. Maybe other wise posters will be along to add to this one

You have said you wished he would get physically abusive so you had a reason to leave
You are waiting for a crunch moment to have a reason to leave.
Basically you want to have a fool proof argument to leave
You are saying you want to leave
But, but, but .....
You know you want it to end
Just knowing that its over, that the love is gone, that whatever the reason, you are hoping he provides a scenario where you say.
" you know what, I'm done"
Cant you see the solution to this agonising purgatory.
Is to put your hands up & say "I'm not doing this any more" dont even bother justifying why.
He knows why & whatever reason you have he will twist it to make you the bad guy
Oh, & btw, your friends already know he's a controlling dick

OP,
I have been following your thread for a while, commented some weeks ago, just wanted to throw in an alternative viewpoint to the DH bashing ones I am seeing (some obviously justified) - my feeling from your posts is that he is not a monster but definitely lacking in skills, most importantly emotional regulation / communication skills.

Did you go to the Dear Peggy site? It has some great free e-books, very non judgemental & open minded and definitely not simplistic "you should stay after an affair". Her husband had several affairs over 7 years and they totally rebuilt their marriage. She's since passed away.

And DO read the Al Turtle site too because it is an absolute goldmine and totally free (he has been a marriage counsellor to thousands of couples)

Anyway just an aside.

I wanted to say, you have having tremendous ups and downs but this is totally normal. It's been only a short time since your worlds came crashing down.

If you two can ever gravitate towards a healthy happy relationship you will need to very gradually see the amplitude of the downs reduce and the gap between the crises decrease. In my admittedly limited, personal experience (nearly 3 years on from a revelation) this is really painfully slow process.

You will also probably need to realise that you have had poor coping mechanisms, lacked assertiveness (which you're going to HAVE to learn), possibly have self esteem issues, etc. I did a lot of journaling, reading, thinking, texting a close friend, staring out of the window, really incredible amounts of it.

You may also need to address some "environmental issues", ie: his & your working hours or other external stressors (don't underestimate the effect exhaustion could have on you & your relationship), support in looking after a young child (do you really get enough time to be really yourself?), diet sleep, support friendships...etc.

You can only address your OWN issues, and improve your OWN behaviour, and see what outcome that (very gradually) may have the bond with your DH.

He has to do the same, on his side.

If you are both working consistently, every day a little bit, you should see progress over time (and it won't be linear). You will in hindsight be able to "measure" this progress (this week you didn't argue all week, or you didnt feel tearful for 2 weeks, or whatever), if and when it happens.

My point is, don't rush this part. IF you BOTH do the self-work you should at some point start to see progress. IF YOU do the work and not him, you will be eventually able to separate without harbouring ill will to him and enter into a much healthier future relationship. So what you are doing now is great and definitely worth the effort.

In support of your DH, he seems to really WANT this and I sense from your description of him that he similar to my DH in that the keeping the “family unit” intact is of tremendous importance to him. I think women sometimes underestimate how attached men are to their families (because they don’t get involved in some of the day to day caring activities, so it seems like they are “detached”).

I hope you don’t feel I am pushing you in one direction or another, it’s really not my intention.

I just wanted to give a concrete example of how things have changed for us.

My DH has in the past been rather unsupportive at certain moments (disappearing to do his own thing, leaving me with young children to deal with, not checking in on me). I used to say nothing, and brood resentfully about it.

Yesterday, he proposed to do something similar, something "thoughtless". I turned and looked at him and shook my head. I told him I felt he is not taking my feelings into consideration. I got a "little" bit angry. He quickly realised that I have drawn a line on the past. I won't silently accept this sort of thing. He hugged me. We talked it through, briefly, and he made a new proposal. I was left with zero resentment.

This is the type of concrete change I mean.

I have changed my way of dealing with it (speaking up, assertively) and he has changed his way of dealing with it (being understanding, making a new compromise).

Unfortunately my husband feels bolstered by everything he has read about how to recover from your partner having an affair - eg the guilty party has to give up any right to privacy (which is fine, I have nothing to hide) while the injured party heals. So he feels very much that he is being reasonable in all of his demands based on what he has been reading.

Yes exactly. This is why joint counselling where there is abuse is absolutely contraindicated. Because the abuser will not act in good faith but will weaponise the counselling against their victim. That's why so many PP were concerned when you said you were going to couples counselling, because of the risk of exactly this happening. I really hope your joint counsellor is wise to this.

Are you still having individual counselling? With a different counsellor? It could be extremely useful to discuss your latest thoughts. You do seem to be making huge progress with your thinking on here, even if it doesn't feel like it.

Porridge my personal view is that there is a world of difference between selfishness and lack of support and coercive control.

I am done with controlling men and I am also going to take a break from reading about one. I wish you well helplesshopeless and I hope that things work out one way or the other. Please do seek out real life support

Dear OP thank you so much for being so thoughtfull and thinking of me. I actually managed to get away with my girls. We are camping on the mountain near by and i am really enjoying it.

It breaks my heart when I read your posts. When you say how your husband twists your words, turns them against you, how he "sounds" reasonable so you doubt yourself and sometimes do not know how to reply to things he says or asks you to do. This is how I felt with my husband a lot. That is why I stayed for so long, always thinking I may be too sensitive or asking for too much. The thing is, breaking up your marriage is hard no matter whose fault it is and what the reasons are. It took me a long time to realize that I did not need to look for a reason big enough to leave (which is what I was doing when I started therapy). The fact that I was not happy was a good enough reason not to stay. Sending you lots of love from this serene, peaceful and sunny place I am staying at.💜

I tried to post a message once before and it did not go through for some reason, so I wrote another one and it did. Hopefuly they will not both show up. If they do, sorry.

Porridge amazing posts ,and they address the OP's concern in her thread title - can she get back to how things were ,a happy place .

You and your partner/husband must both have been very motivated and put a great deal of effort in and I take my hat off to you both .

For me ,I could do that if I had great love and some of it endured .But for many I suspect the feelings of emotional and physical intimacy cannot be restored .

@PorridgeGoneWrong, I think you mean well but perhaps have no experience of a controlling/coercive relationship and therefore don't understand why it is now criminalised.

Either that, or you do have experience of it and have brainwashed yourself into making do. Re: Peggy, "Her husband had several affairs over 7 years and they totally rebuilt their marriage. She's since passed away" does not fill me with delight for her achievement! I wonder how many layers of illusion she chose to hide behind. There are plenty of fish in the sea. Not just that, but there is... the ocean. Without even bothering with the fish. It is possible to enjoy life without having someone constantly whittling you down. Actually, much easier to do so.

@helplesshopeless, I'm pretty sure back when I was in your position I'd have read all the MN posts and pretty much dismissed them as other people projecting their own shit onto my situation. I would cling to the belief that there were things I hadn't said that would make it clear, to anyone with the right insight, that actually things weren't that bad.

This is what makes me nervous about Porridge's posts -- you're already at risk of normalising the situation, it could be quite dangerous for someone to tell you to try a bit more bending over backwards.

I suspended my judgement for as long as I could, but it's become more and more clear that you are categorically in an abusive relationship that is likely to get worse over time.

I really hope that in real life you will get the support you need to make sense of your situation and get out. Please, please tell yours friends the full story. Talk to your sister. Don't hold anything back from your counsellor. Your job is to look after YOU, not protect your DH. Looking after yourself is the best way to look after your daughter in the long run.

Be aware that counsellors tend to resist being prescriptive, just like I tried to. It's against the rules of their game to tell you what to do, or (I think!) report your DH to the police. However... I do hope she will give you some hints, and that you will pay attention.

Morning Everyone,

I have just been thinking about Katysun’s comment about there being a world of difference between being selfish and coercive control.

The thing is some-one who is selfish is motivated by wanting their own way which really is the same as wanting to be in control. Once you have that dynamic in play, then it’s a slippery slope down to manipulating others, putting pressure on them and because you only see things from your point of view, you are liable to twist things around to support your narrative.

Manipulative behaviour is often not a conscious choice. In fact children are brilliant at it with their parents when they want something!

I guess maybe the difference is, if you challenge a selfish person about their behaviour and they are able to acknowledge it, take on board your feelings and work towards change then the relationship is potentially workable and saveable. Even then, change will be very difficult as our relationship dynamics are often formed and set in childhood and it takes a hell of a lot of work to untangle these patterns.

The problem is l haven’t met many selfish people like that. They will often resist any challenge to their world view and can be very resistant to change.

I considered my STBXH mainly selfish. But not all the time- in fact he could also be very kind. There would be the odd hint at something more serious but like the Op’s partner he would have a very rational response when challenged. He could also be very good at apologising.

It was when his very being felt threatened (in the form of me distancing myself from him and challenging his narrative and not backing down however strongly he tried to convince me) that the coerciveness really ramped up. But it wasn’t overtly aggressive. It came across as neediness, him ‘missing me’, saying l had ‘sent him to Coventry’ so he used the weapons of guilt and using my own kind nature to make me feel bad. I didn’t recognise it for what it was.

So l think it’s more of a slippery slope. No-one is horrible all the time. There are many shades of grey. So maybe the question is perhaps at what point does the behaviour become problematic to you? Does your partner have the capacity for any meaningful change?

My point is if you feel you are in a hostage situation ( you feel it is impossible to escape your relationship ) then this is a very clear sign that you are being abused. You cannot expect your partner to behave reasonably in any shape or form so stop behaving in a reasonable way to them in the hope that they will.

porridge I know you are really enthusiastic about the process you've gone through with your husband after your own affair. But please realise there's a significant difference between your own experience, from all you've written, and that of the OP, whose husband is quite clearly abusive and, due to that abuse, the OP will find it quite difficult to be able to judge for herself what is happening in their relationship, what she wants, and what is the right thing for her.
I find it, at best, rather flippant towards the OP to write, only a handful of posts after she's explained how her husband meets several points as the standard for coercive control (a crime), that those calling out his behaviour are "DH-bashing" and he is simply "lacking in skills".
I hope it's coming from a good place but - given you are keen on recommending reading - perhaps take some reading recommendations yourself such as archive.org/details/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat
www.nationaldahelpline.org.uk/en/What-is-abuse

@Cavagirl ... exactly.

@helplesshopeless, I suspect you will take a look at the "What is abuse" link just posted, and see listed all kinds of behaviour you haven't had to deal with, and therefore the rest of it (which clearly does apply to you) may seem less relevant. It isn't.

To take a ridiculous example -- and many apologies that this is in poor taste, but I can't think of a better analogy: imagine someone describing the behaviour of a guard at a concentration camp. He did X, X, and X, but didn't do Y, Y, or Y. Both X and Y are atrocities. Does that mean there was no need to worry?

If you're anything like I was, you'll feel reluctant to call the helpline on 0808 2000 247 because it's inviting a whole load of interfering busybodies into the situation, and none of them will understand how your DH is different and special and everything is going to be OK.

But... if you really believed that, you wouldn't get a feeling of dread and doom at the thought of a future with him.

Those feelings don't just arise out of nothing. They're not just products of what he might call your silly little mind.

To be honest I don't think that love does come back. Xh was an alcoholic and verbally abusive. It's like water dripping on a stone. When was 19/20 and working abroad I left. Took me 40 years nearly 4 years ago.

Don't be me.

That is an interesting post Whatdirection.

I guess I would say selfish is not necessarily control, though, but looking after one’s self - not in itself a bad thing, but in a relationship there needs to be give and take. So I could consider my ex selfish in so far as he went to the gym as often as he needed to for his mental health, but never looked after the children so I could go.

Let’s say I then organised childcare and went myself because I knew I could not count on him.

It would tip into control if he made up reasons why I could not go and should spend my free time with him and ‘family’, manipulated me into feeling guilty for going, ruined my sleep the night before by starting an argument so I was too tired to go, told me I needed to be back by x time, called me when I was there and interrupted my time for no reason etc. I guess that was more the distinction I was thinking of, except when you are in it, this type of coercive behaviour is quite difficult to spot.

That said, going back to Evan Stark, that kind of selfishness of protecting one’s own time whilst expecting one’s wife to pick up the slack undermines equality and underpins the same kind of patriarchal structure which allows coercive control to flourish.

Not sure if I am agreeing with you or disagreeing with you! I would probably distance myself from both scenarios now, to be honest.

Both scenarios = the person who did not value my time and the person who tried to control it.

I think you know by now who he is, don't you? He probably thought he could have his cake and eat it more than you actually - he thought he could get away with treating you like crap and that you would actually remain loyal and committed to him.

is committed to having anger management therapy

He's already made steps towards getting therapy for his self esteem and anger issues

So he's booked in with someone next week yes? Let me guess - no he's not. So far he's probably just been browsing a few clinic websites online and made a phone call or two, but when exactly is the appointment. It will probably never happen, and so please don't give up your job for now. If he protests, say that under other circumstances you might consider it, but since he has been acting so unpleasantly it would be unwise for you to make yourself even more vulnerable right now. I absolutely guarantee you that if he had a female friend or sister in the same situation, he would advise her exactly the same thing. He knows it makes sense, but doesn't want that applied to himself.

He may be entirely serious about addressing his anger, but unfortunately, even with the best intentions, he may not be able to help who he is. He might be able to help it when he's facing an angry looking, 6'5 muscle man (because in the right circumstances, his life might depend on it), but around an intimate partner he knows will put up with nasty behaviour......not so much.

The problem here is that this behaviour has simply gone too far. You may have entirely justifiable reasons for staying this long, but by doing so you've shown him that you're the type of woman who will put up with his bullshit. I mean, look at it this way - it worked so well for him that you even married and had a child with him, despite any happiness or protests coming from you - that is the tangible reality it obtained him. Shitty behaviour resulted in wife + child + comfortable set up.

Patience and a fairly even, good temperament is extremely important when looking for male partners, because my God, it's tested to the absolute limit when they have children. If they can't hold their cool in normal situations, you can see how quickly things escalate out of control in a crisis.

However if I ever ended up with him in the future I know my husband would make it absolute hell

If I didn't know anything about your circumstances, if all I read from your post was this single sentence, it would tell me everything I need to know about him as a man, despite good qualities he might have. Vindictive people are bad news - never mind him trusting you again. I don't think you can trust a person like that.

Its so very clear on the outside,
If your daughter was in your shoes, what would be your advice?
Ditto sister?
Ditto girl friend?
He has si severely manipulated you that you cant see out of the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt)
And Yes, what about the anger management ? (Or does he think this counseling is "anger management")
the odd appointment will get you back in your box all he has to do is keep his vile character under wraps until you are worn down & tired if trying to keep your head above water.

I like the example you have about going to the gym * @KatySun*

However in a way if your husband is always going to the gym and so by default you end up with childcare that is a form of indirect control because your movements and activity are curtailed. However the majority of people wouldn’t see it as that as l guess about 95% of women end up doing the default childcare while many men just assume it’s ok to go wherever and not worry who picks up the slack.

I guess l am thinking that control maybe can be split into two: active ( where a direct action impacts you ) and passive ( where perhaps the lack of an action impacts you and is much harder to unravel) Often this lack of an action is defined as ‘thoughtless’ rather than anything more sinister.

I do think that it can be very hard to tell when control becomes coercive especially if it seems relatively infrequent or peppered with lots of good moments. My STBXH would never bother me on a night out with messaging (but in truth l rarely went out ) but he would do this weird thing that if l went out, he had to go out too and leave at the same time as me. I found this annoying behaviour and it somehow impacted on my enjoyment of my evening. It sound such a small thing but he did it every time. It was like his way of mildly sabotaging my night out but of course how could l complain about that?

I find it interesting to reflect on. This thread has made me really question the nature of relationships when they are coming to an end, how we recognise that, what is unacceptable behaviour, where are the grey areas, how we find it difficult to be discerning when we are right in the thick of things, can things be salvaged, can love come back and so on.