Does love come back/what do I do

[helplesshopeless]

Nc for this.

Advice needed please, I've created a huge mess and can't see a way out/what is for the best. This may be long.

I am married with a 3yo. DH has always had a nasty temper, I've suggested anger management counselling numerous times but to no avail. The last few years since having my child have been really difficult. He's generally spoken to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical). On a day to day basis we would be civil enough to eachother, but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly. We have had happy family times too and we both dote on our child.

All of this treatment from my DH culminated in my withdrawing from him and ultimately having an affair the last few months, with someone who made me feel loved and cared for. It was mainly an emotional affair but there was a small amount of physical contact (we did not have sex). This is someone that I work with, so although we're wfh at the moment, he is in team zoom meetings etc.

My DH found everything out last week. He is angry but also devastated. I have never seen him so upset and it has shocked me that he cares that much about me. He has completely woken up to how he's been treating me and is committed to having anger management therapy and working on things with me. I obviously am ashamed of what I have done and there is no excuse for my behaviour, but he does recognise that his treatment of me took me to a place where I was open to someone else. I still can't believe I had an affair because it is so against my morals and I fully deserve to be judged for it.

We are working on things and will get relationship counselling. There's a lot of self esteem issues that my husband struggles with, especially since we had our child as he's felt like he's been stuck on the outside looking in, and he thinks this is why he's been treating me how he has. I do understand this and it makes sense, but it doesn't change how he's treated me in the past and how damaging I have found it.

My husband wants me to leave my work so there's no interaction with the other man. I totally understand his point but am reluctant to do this as I'd then feel trapped.

I want to get back to a happy place with my husband. I don't want to feel trapped with him. I don't know if I can find my way back to loving him, whether all of this is coming too late after years of awful treatment. I accept I have behaved in a disgusting way and deserve all of this fall out, and am so worried about the impact on our child and how I'd manage if we separate. I am also concerned about the impact on my husband if things don't work as he has been explaining how it will crush him and he'd never be able to trust anyone again if we don't manage to work through this.

I just don't know if my heart is in this anymore, I want to be able to be happy with him and love him and our family deserves for me to work on this and fully commit to getting back on track, but I have no idea if I'll ever get back to where I need to be.

I am ashamed to admit I still have feelings for the other guy. I could obviously never be with him anyway so that is irrelevant, but it's clouding my judgement. I need to hear from people who have learnt to love their husbands again. Is that a thing? Will we ever get there?

I still can't believe any of this is happening.

OH MY GOD is what your last posts made me feel.
So now for life, you are on his leash ? he decided who you can see, who you can speak to, what hours you can go out. & even if you go, you know that leading up to it he will be snide & moody, & make remarks about clothes, & God forbid, make up, cleavage.
he will sulk, he will give you the silent treatment, he will want to know what time you will be home, you will have to clock watch.
Any fun you had will be leached out, by his judgement, his questions.
Who was there, what did you talk about ?
This is FLAGRANT domestic abuse.
IT IS DONE now, OVER,
Actually, You need to simply say, "NO", as a whole sentence.
& fucking mean it.

Who do you need to justify leaving to? To paraphrase PP: Yourself? Him? God?

I think it's him. Because I know he will behave terribly to me if we split, and the only thing that will temper that will be if he sees my reasoning. At the moment, he still thinks I'm not taking responsibility for my affair and I'm not putting enough effort in to fix things. Luckily as I'm not well, any comments re affection seem to have quietened down so there's no pressure there for now.

Sorry OP, I think you need to accept that he will be awful regardless.

the only thing that will temper that will be if he sees my reasoning

What evidence do you have to believe this? In 32 pages I see no evidence at all of you explaining something to him, him listening to you, agreeing with you and tempering his behaviour as a result of an impassive, unbiased assessment that you are being reasonable. He will never ever ever accept your reasons for leaving. You might never have had the affair, and he might be physically violent with you (your red line) and he still would not accept that you are leaving.

I don't want to worry them as they have a lot going on
Please please tell your parents, tell your sister over the phone. I know you don't want to as it starts to make things real. But he is ramping up the abuse now, you need RL support more than ever.

I know you don't like the description of him as abusive but everything you've just described is coercive control www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/coercive-control/

If you talk to women's aid and describe what is happening to you, perhaps that will give you the validation you need in leaving, for your little girl.

Yes OP, please please please talk to someone. I'm pretty sure your sister would not have postponed her weekend with you if she had realised you're in crisis.

I'm not sure YOU realise you're in crisis! But you are

I wish I could magically transfer all my energy into your DD, and have her grow to the size of a giant, so she could swipe your DH aside and grab you and take you to a place of safety.

"Talking in a reasonable way" is also a lot more than "not yelling in your face". It involves listening to what the other person says and discussing the topic using logical arguments, not guilting them into doing what you want.

Hi @helplesshopeless. Can I just check I understand the current situation ?

1. He’s using your counselling sessions to explain why all his abuse was your fault.

First he abused you and you shut down and so he had to abuse you more. Then the abuse was your fault because you had an emotional affair. And now it’s because you are not being giving him any sex and enough affection or working hard enough on your marriage.

1. He is preventing you from going into the office to work.

1. He is preventing you from going to work related social events with your colleagues or out for drinks with female friends

1. You are scared to leave him because you know he will treat you appallingly.

1. You suspect that he may be tracking you or spying on you in some way although you have no proof yet.

I’m really struggling to see how this is a man who loves you and who has had a complete personality change.

He’s an abuser who has temporarily changed his methods of control and abuse. What he is doing now is a criminal offence of coercive control. It doesn’t matter that he thinks he has a good reason to do it - that’s not a defence.

Yes you made a poor ( but understandable ) choice to get emotionally involved with another man. But that doesn’t change who your husband is as a person. He’s a man who believes deep down that he’s entitled to abuse and control his wife.

He will never change. That’s his fundamental belief system. It’s who is he is.

It’s very very hard to change yourself, even when you want to and your have professional help. It’s impossible to change someone else against their will.

Thanks everyone. I'm on a work call at the moment so just a v quick message to clarify that he is not/I do not suspect him of spying on or tracking me, the 'secret box' comment was just to demonstrate how paranoid I felt about him seeing this thread (as @Alcemeg had described a box in one of her earlier posts). Thanks again will come back and reply properly in a bit

What a you doing OP?

He doesn't care for you.

He's used you as an emotional punching bag for years.

He's a nasty piece of work and he doesn't want you to leave as he enjoys abusing you.

He's a horror.

For God's sake tell your parents and get away from him.

Your affair is just another stick for him to beat you with.

He's a terrorist in the home.

Please wake up to your situation.

Thank you for clarifying that OP and sorry I misunderstood.

@helplesshopeless

Gosh this just gets worse and worse feels like you are getting further sucked in.

I know he will behave terribly to me if we split, and the only thing that will temper that will be if he sees my reasoning.

1. He already behaves terribly to you, and has done since well before your 'affair'. So you mean, he will get even worse? (Though you wouldn't be living with it day in, day out at least)

1. Him seeing your reasoning - what (if anything) would satisfy him?

A - You saying you've done wrong, you weren't justified, you do love him, you will be sticking to all his rules and any more he comes up with, to prove how very sorry you are and how very much you love him? And you'll be ok with him monitoring every inch of your life.

B - OR perhaps you saying
yes, I was wrong, it was all my fault, I have killed our marriage all by myself, but it is now dead, and I'm very sorry I totally blame myself, but we now can't be in a marriage together, we need to be doing the counselling to learn how best we can be good parents for our dc, but separately? (A big fat lie but gets you out of it)

C- Or you saying
Your abusive behaviour killed my love for you, the affair I had was a symptom, I'm not sorry, I won't be abiding by all these rules you are dreaming up because, yes, you're right I DON'T LOVE YOU, in fact I don't even like you now one little bit!

So if you split = he will behave terribly.

If you stay together = he will behave terribly.

As he is going to behave terribly whatever the outcome - you might as well do what suits you best.

I think the saddest thing, OP, is to see such a loving person as yourself deny that love to a very important person: YOU.

You've got used to the idea that you deserve to be treated with contempt. You don't.

You're in a bit of a Catch-22 situation, because finding the energy to get out requires you to respect and love yourself in ways that are just not possible in a relationship that constantly undermines you.

He is repeating, repeating, repeating his version of reality, so that it overwrites yours. He's not really interested in yours, and never will be.

@helplesshopeless

When I posted this:
snapped at me for my face looking annoying because I felt unwell
See, now I fucking hate this bastard

I bet your first reaction was "Oh no, I shouldn't have shared that, I probably got it wrong, it wasn't that bad, just me being a drama queen..." 😋 😉

The trouble is, you're really not imagining all this. These things really do happen, and they have happened for a L-O-N-G time. So long that they've started to feel normal 😓

You'll be glad to know, I am about to set off on a long journey so I will shut up for now! I hope you don't feel we are jumping on your back. Wishing you peace and gentleness today, even if you have to create a little pocket of it for yourself. I bet you're a dab hand at doing that. 💗

He said as a result of this, I need to accept that there's certain things I need to be sensitive to if we're going to reconcile. As an example of this, he does not want me meeting female friends for a night out. A meal out is fine, but I cannot go for drinks after, because for all he knows the OM could meet us in a bar. He said if I did go out for a night out/drinks, he absolutely would not be able to cope with the anxiety of it and if I did it, I'm showing him that I don't care about him and how it's impacting him.

I really don't know how unreasonable this is. I've already missed several work social meet ups recently in case OM was there (and my husband said at the start that I cannot go to these). I'm not going to the office in case OM is there (which he's also banned). Is it too far for him to expect me to not meet female friends (who may or may not be work colleagues) for drinks? Or should I be sensitive to the fact that that would be very stressful for him at the moment?

The above is really really clear abusive and controlling behaviour.
YOU ARE THE VICTIM OF ABUSE.
His behaviour comes straight out of the handbook of abuse. And in his eyes you have given him a perfect reason to increase his grip on you.
He is clearly trying to isolate you and using your guilt as a weapon against you.
WAKE UP!
You don't have to feel guilty for your affair! He is to blame for that. You can't treat someone like shit and expect them to stay loyal to you. I say, good on you!
You don't have to apologise. You don't have to feel guilty. But even if you do you don't have to allow him to use it against you.
Listen to what everyone is saying on here:
YOU ARE BEING EMOTIONALLY ABUSED.
Call the domestic abuse helpline:08082000247

Can you go to your sisters for the w/e instead? Send a text, saying that you really need someone to talk to. Tell Bully boy you are going, you need a change ic air& he wont have to make snide remarks about your face when feeling ill.
Get in your car, put Dd in her car seat, & go. Or to your parents.
He doesn't gave to give permission, he doesn't have to like it.
You need to talk to people in rl, (even though he has forbidden that too another muzzle imposed on you )
you need a breather. He is not your master, you are your own person, you are allowed to decide what you do, where you go & who you speak to

Great line in a song by Mary Chapin Carpenter called 'I'll take my chances'
"Forgiveness doesn't come with a debit"

Heard it today and thought of your situation OP, before I read the latest from last evening. It seems to me he will use your affair to control and abuse. And that's no way to live. If a spouse can't forgive an affair the marriage is over.

Have been following this thread since it began and I think it would be good if he did read it .
It shows how much you are struggling Helpless to do the right thing -for him and for the marriage .How you've tried to see it from his point of view .How ,despite everything ,you want the relationship to work .

Sorry peridito I know you mean well but that's an awful idea.
This is a safe space for OP to get support - revealing its existence to her H will destroy yet another safety net for her.

You often hear "show him/her the thread" on MN because people - reasonable people - think, gosh there must be some reason he/she isn't convinced they're in the wrong by simply talking to OP, clearly if the saw things written in OP's words and that so many people agree, they'd understand?

And inherent in that view is the subconscious projection that if you were in his/her shoes, you'd be convinced and see the error of your ways. Because you're a reasonable person.

But the abusive partner in these circumstances is not a reasonable person. That's why they are abusive. Don't fall into the trap of trying to reason, using all your logic, and win an argument with them. They aren't interested in logic or reason. They are only interested in power and control. No amount of people, no amount of logic, will convince them.

It's a pointless exercise that only succeeds in destroying an important outlet for OP I'm afraid.

Sorry Cava ,I didn't mean that the thread should be shown to the OP's husband .Though I can see my post reads like that .

I quite agree ,this is a safe space for the OP .I was trying ,very ineptly ,to express the view that the OP had said nothing that she need be ashamed of .Just the opposite .

But of course the husband wouldn't see it that way .

Ah got you
Yes even if he was on her tech - hopefully not - the effect would be no different. He'd then no doubt restrict her ability to communicate further

Morning everyone ☺️ sorry for delayed reply, I had a big response typed out last night on my phone but then my husband interrupted me before I could post and I lost it all 😣

Firstly, sorry for the confusion re my secret box comment. He absolutely would not do something like that (you may be skeptical on that but it's true!). The most he has done is grab an unexpected opportunity to read my notes that he came across looking for spare paper/check my computer for emails with the OM when I left it unlocked by accident. He wouldn't go so far as to plant something to spy on me.

@Pashazade thank you so much for your comment, it's really interesting to hear it from the other side as I'm so conscious of the damage my behaviour has caused. My husband has always been a tiny bit jealous/controlling - for example I'd get arsey comments after chatting to the window cleaner, or if I didn't engage with him sufficiently on a WhatsApp convo when on a night out with my friends. But I totally understand how my affair will have made him feel so I'm not sure how far I should be taking it with allowing him to control my activities to help him feel better. It sounds like from the responses that he's out of order here. He's just very good at sounding logical and making me feel like I'm being selfish/uncaring by protesting these restrictions.

Tell him he needs to discuss this with his therapist as it's not healthy to control your spouse's movements.

I actually tried this line of argument and was told that I was minimising the impact of my affair and invalidating/mocking his feelings. So I got a bit lost!

@whatdirection thank you for your thoughtful response. It sounds like you've come really far in recognising his behaviour actually, just from your responses on here. I'm so glad you're 100% happy you're out. Have you managed to keep on with your walking group?

That said, this was his individual meeting last night with your couples’ therapist. Hopefully the therapist will call him out on this controlling behaviour. But even if she does, you are essentially relying on an outside party to tell him how to behave towards you.

Yes, absolutely feel like I'm relying on her! We keep having conversations about my lack of effort/affection that we're just going round in circles on and I feel like we need her to referee and break that cycle.

Speaking of the therapy, I had a realisation last night that made me want to kick myself. In my individual session last week, she asked me a specific list of questions that with hindsight were geared towards identifying various levels of abuse. It seems obvious now but at the time it didn't click and I was wracking my brains trying to find examples of my own behaviour to answer the questions with, as opposed to his 🤦‍♀️ I was assuming that she'd ask my husband the same questions in his session but of course she didn't. So now I'm concerned that I've not given the whole picture. But I did give some detailed descriptions of the issues so hopefully that's given her some understanding.

I'll post this now before I lose it and carry on in another post!

@Cavagirl thank you for the link re coercive control. He does meet a few of those, but I think my difficulty is that it's only become more apparent in light of the affair so his excuse is the paranoia/anxiety that my affair has caused. Prior to the affair I'd say it was more (totally unwarranted) jealousy which resulted in arsey/mildly controlling behaviour.

talking in a reasonable way" is not a luxury, you know. It's not a rare treat, to be saved for special occasions when we're trying to impress someone

Talking in a reasonable way" is also a lot more than "not yelling in your face". It involves listening to what the other person says and discussing the topic using logical arguments, not guilting them into doing what you want.

Both very good points actually and that hadn't occurred to me! I had been feeling quite impressed (almost grateful!) that he was talking in a more calm manner about the affair, but you're right that it shouldn't be a novelty and in fact he is still interrupting me and twisting the narrative when I try to talk.

When I posted this [...]
I bet your first reaction was "Oh no, I shouldn't have shared that, I probably got it wrong, it wasn't that bad, just me being a drama queen..." 😋** 😉

Ha, yes you're right! I have had to resist the urge to clarify the situation and explain why I had been irritating him in that scenario to justify him saying that 🙈but you're right, I shouldn't be expecting/allowing that behaviour in any scenario. It just kind of became normal.

fantasticbuttocks thank you, I know everything you're saying makes complete sense!! The problem is I can't see myself doing any of those scenarios. A won't be happening, and I'm not brave enough to instigate things via B or C. I'm still clinging onto the idea of that crunch moment...

IND1A other than the secret box thing, I'd say your summary is pretty accurate. And yet I'm still instantly offering him mitigating circumstances in my head with each point that I read (and still feel the need to explain to everyone that it wasn't all the time and we still had nice times together as well!). At least I am recognising that now though I suppose, and starting to resist the urge to say it every time...

peridito I understand what you mean about him reading this thread - however it would be catastrophic I think! He would zone in on my brief references to OM and also accuse me of betraying him by writing about this, and say that I am exaggerating, playing the victim, etc...

I very nearly escaped to my friend's for the weekend but unfortunately the trains were all booked up for bank holiday! But we have a nice weekend of activities planned for our daughter so it should be a good few days fingers crossed.

I know there's more comments that I haven't directly replied to, apologies! I have read them all and really appreciate you all. My daughter is clambering all over my so I will have to leave it here and pay her some attention.

Hope you all have a lovely bank holiday weekend

Oops, bold has gone weird, sorry! Think I need to give up attempting to post on my phone 🤦‍♀️

Morning @helplesshopeless

Just to add a few thoughts about your husband and his demands around who you see and where you go.

IF you loved your husband to bits, realised your affair was a massive mistake and your partner had always been kind and decent to you THEN there might have to be a period of time where you bend over backwards to reassure your partner in order to build up trust again. This may mean not going anywhere where you may bump into OM for example.

HOWEVER this is not you. Quite bluntly, your love has been destroyed by his abusive behaviour and that was the driving force in you looking elsewhere. I feel strongly that you chose the actions you did to subconsciously force the end of your relationship.

Therefore you do not feel that remorseful because ultimately you do not regret having the affair. In fact it opened your eyes to the possibility of being truly loved for who you really are. Your numbness towards your husband is actually a trauma related state. You have shut down to protect yourself. BUT because you are a decent lovely human being, your empathy for your husbands pain is being used against you by him.

If l were in your shoes right now, I think l’d be inclined to tell my parents/sister. Get support. Start making a plan. Get prepared. Only tell him when you have got everything in place. Have someone with you when you tell him.

But maybe baby steps for now....try and carve more space for yourself somehow....it’s what you need.....see your family....talk to others....they will want to support you and you need to feel their strength in order to make the next step.

Just read your latest post. I think the bit about his behaviour getting more apparent in the light of the affair is very revealing.

Before your affair, your husband felt secure in your relationship- he treated you badly but even though you did raise it as a concern, nothing ever changed, you carried on together - he took this as an assurance that the relationship was not under threat.

Once the affair was exposed, he had to face the very real possibility of losing you. This meant on one hand facing up to his poor behaviour but also a ramping up of other coercive controlling methods in order to rein you in and to keep you in your box.

This feels so familiar to my husband. Once he ‘confessed’ he thought l would forgive him and we would carry on as normal as in his mind he had 25 years ‘credit’ in the bank for good behaviour.

However l didn’t get back in my box. I questioned his version of events, l didn’t swallow his quite frankly unbelievable narrative. I distanced myself. I demanded he stopped minimising and gave me space.

This was where he started unraveling. The thought of losing me became real and he ramped up his coercive controlling behaviour (that l would have always described as quite mild before) and a side of him that l had only seen glimpses of before became much more acute.

I would never have believed this would have happened. But it did. I think his behaviour sprung from panic, fear, anxiety but it was still very controlling and abusive. My ‘crunch’ moment was feeling very unsafe when he ramped up the conversations around us not having sex wanting ‘timelines’ etc. As a child l grew up feeling very unsafe and when that feeling returned I knew l had to get out.

What are the rules, if you like, that you signed up to when the couples counselling started? Would it be possible to email the counsellor and say that you have been reflecting on the questions she asked you about x, y and z (you know how she framed them) and you answered them in relation to yourself, but not in relation to your husband as well. You would need to be prepared for x, y and s to be brought into the discussion, though.

That apart, you do realise that there are no excuses for coercive control, right? It is against the law, just as hitting you would be. So it would not be okay for him to beat you up because you had an affair, so it is not okay for him to control you.

OP your "affair" is not his get out of jail free card. He seems to think it is and he's working extremely hard to make you think it is, too.

thank you for the link re coercive control. He does meet a few of those, but I think my difficulty is that it's only become more apparent in light of the affair so his excuse is the paranoia/anxiety that my affair has caused. Prior to the affair I'd say it was more (totally unwarranted) jealousy which resulted in arsey/mildly controlling behaviour.

Please read back what you've just written. You've essentially said, my husband abuses me but I've driven him to it by having an affair.

That's the same classic excuse used by domestic violence offenders - "yes I was violent but she drove me to it". And I'm worried you seem to almost agree with him?

So what behaviour does he say is justified by your affair and what isn't?

Restricting your friendships, where you are and aren't allowed to go, that's OK because you had an affair.

What else would be ok because you had an affair? Restricting your access to money? He might be really worried if you have money you could do a runner with OM. So perhaps that would be OK.

Where you live? Maybe it's not enough to quit your job, maybe you should move too, because OM might know your address so perhaps you should move to the middle of nowhere then, so he couldn't find you.

Maybe he it's not enough you deleted OM's number, maybe you need a new phone too, just to assuage his worries. Which he controls your access to. So OM definitely can't contact you.

I mean, you had an affair, so this is only because he needs reassurance, so these are all fine and reasonable requirements, right?

Please please talk to your family.