Does love come back/what do I do

[helplesshopeless]

Nc for this.

Advice needed please, I've created a huge mess and can't see a way out/what is for the best. This may be long.

I am married with a 3yo. DH has always had a nasty temper, I've suggested anger management counselling numerous times but to no avail. The last few years since having my child have been really difficult. He's generally spoken to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical). On a day to day basis we would be civil enough to eachother, but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly. We have had happy family times too and we both dote on our child.

All of this treatment from my DH culminated in my withdrawing from him and ultimately having an affair the last few months, with someone who made me feel loved and cared for. It was mainly an emotional affair but there was a small amount of physical contact (we did not have sex). This is someone that I work with, so although we're wfh at the moment, he is in team zoom meetings etc.

My DH found everything out last week. He is angry but also devastated. I have never seen him so upset and it has shocked me that he cares that much about me. He has completely woken up to how he's been treating me and is committed to having anger management therapy and working on things with me. I obviously am ashamed of what I have done and there is no excuse for my behaviour, but he does recognise that his treatment of me took me to a place where I was open to someone else. I still can't believe I had an affair because it is so against my morals and I fully deserve to be judged for it.

We are working on things and will get relationship counselling. There's a lot of self esteem issues that my husband struggles with, especially since we had our child as he's felt like he's been stuck on the outside looking in, and he thinks this is why he's been treating me how he has. I do understand this and it makes sense, but it doesn't change how he's treated me in the past and how damaging I have found it.

My husband wants me to leave my work so there's no interaction with the other man. I totally understand his point but am reluctant to do this as I'd then feel trapped.

I want to get back to a happy place with my husband. I don't want to feel trapped with him. I don't know if I can find my way back to loving him, whether all of this is coming too late after years of awful treatment. I accept I have behaved in a disgusting way and deserve all of this fall out, and am so worried about the impact on our child and how I'd manage if we separate. I am also concerned about the impact on my husband if things don't work as he has been explaining how it will crush him and he'd never be able to trust anyone again if we don't manage to work through this.

I just don't know if my heart is in this anymore, I want to be able to be happy with him and love him and our family deserves for me to work on this and fully commit to getting back on track, but I have no idea if I'll ever get back to where I need to be.

I am ashamed to admit I still have feelings for the other guy. I could obviously never be with him anyway so that is irrelevant, but it's clouding my judgement. I need to hear from people who have learnt to love their husbands again. Is that a thing? Will we ever get there?

I still can't believe any of this is happening.

@helplesshopeless

Hello everyone

I am absolutely blown away by this thread - I wasn't sure what to expect when I first posted (probably mainly a bashing for my affair), but I honestly so appreciate how you've all stuck with me. I also love that this has turned into a general community of support for each other. You're all so kind and uplifting and I really do think that this thread is a fabulous example of the best mumsnet has to offer! So thank you again to you all

There's an incredible number of interesting and thoughtful posts since I've been away over the weekend (you are all wonderful philosophers!) and I feel wholly unqualified to contribute to them

In terms of where I'm up to, our weekend away was nice at times (seeing our daughter enjoy it was lovely) but also testing in other moments. My husband had his usual struggles of seeing other happy families, getting frustrated that I wasn't putting effort in to be affectionate, getting slightly unpleasant about the affair, and saying its over. So things were quite up and down in that respect.

I had a bit of a revelation (it feels like it shouldn't be a revelation because it's such an obvious thing really) that whenever he is spiralling off into unpleasantness, I am just desperate to get back to feeling 'safe' (i.e. when he is in a nice mood and is being kind to me) - I will basically say anything to appease and get back to that 'safe zone.' And then once we're back in the safe zone, I will be feeling much calmer and happier (almost grateful) but once that settles down i'm back in turmoil about the fact that I need to maintain that and I don't know if I can give him what he needs for that, in the timescale that he needs. Of course, any discussions around separation or divorce feel extremely unsafe, because I know how he will behave when if it gets to that, and I am just completely unable to do anything that pushes me out of the safe zone into the more dangerous waters.

@Peach1886 @Alcemeg discussed a waiting for a 'crunch' moment before deciding to make the leap - that's definitely where I was subconsciously I think prior to my affair. I really hope this does not offend or upset anyone, but I remember wishing he'd just be physical when he was angry, just once, so I could finally leave (he has never ever been physical and I know he wouldn't hurt me like that). And now I feel like I'm never going to get a crunch moment because he's working so hard on being a better person and a kind partner to me.

@Alcemeg I don't feel I have any wise words to offer in addition to what other lovely posters have said about your mum's situation, but I am sending huge hugs. For her to have raised such a thoughtful, kind and compassionate daughter, she must be an incredibly special lady.

Oh OP.
This sounds so stressful! Even during a weekend away with your child, he is finding fault, and this is while he's 'trying'. You must be all consumed and exhausted with this.

Have you heard of the Karpman Drama Triangle? Might be useful for you to read about. It's about the dynamics of conflict in a relationship and the 'roles' people adopt, and how we switch back and forth between those positions. The three positions are: Victim, Rescuer and Persecutor. It can be a helpful way to understand how things are working between you during times of conflict.

https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/memberarticles/using-the-drama-triangle-to-understand-relationship-conflict

Glad you're OK OP.

A couple of random questions/reflection points from me...

It seems pretty clear to me and I think others on this thread that you want don't want to continue in the marriage, but it's the process of ending the marriage that's keeping you there and the fear of regret. Is that also your view? Or is there still part of you that wants to stay for the marriage itself (for positive reasons rather than fear?)

I remember wishing he'd just be physical when he was angry, just once, so I could finally leave "so I could finally leave" why? Why would this enable you to leave? Plenty of women stay in this situation, but for you, it is a no-brainer - it's such a no-brainer it removes all doubt such that you actively want it to happen because it means you have permission (from whom?) to take an action you ultimately want to take anyway but feel unable to. This is hugely revealing and I think really worth thinking about, maybe also with your counsellor. Why is this a line crossed and everything else not?

You threw in at the start your H kept "saying it's over" - does he do this a lot now? How do you react? How does he return to things being "not over" as presumably they are?

whenever he is spiralling off into unpleasantness, I am just desperate to get back to feeling 'safe' (i.e. when he is in a nice mood and is being kind to me) - I will basically say anything to appease and get back to that 'safe zone.'
This is very typical of emotional abuse/manipulation and is almost the point. It works for him because you are conditioned not to raise anything "unsafe" as life is so much more pleasant if you don't.
Of course then all your needs/wants/hopes/dreams are stifled in favour of his. Is it any surprise you were tempted by a relationship where you are important?

Did you read Lundy Bancroft? I think it will help you understand why he behaves as he does. There's a pdf here
www.docdroid.net/2fZmz40/why-does-he-do-that-pdf

Even in the introduction he says "One of the prevalent features of life with an angry or controlling partner is that he frequently tells you what you should think and tries to get you to doubt or devalue your own perceptions and beliefs.....If your partner’s controlling or devaluing behavior is chronic, you no doubt find yourself thinking about him a great deal of the time,wondering how to please him, how to keep him from straying, or how to get him to change. As a result, you may find that you don’t get much timeto think about yourself—except about what is wrong with you in his eyes. One of my central reasons for writing this book is, ironically, to help you think about him less."

A fascinating thread and a lot of great wisdom. Thank you to everyone who has shared. A couple of thoughts from me:

Women are brought up to appease and please, to be pleasant and not to make a fuss. Now I'm in my 50s this was definitely how was brought up - though I'd love to think things have changed since then. It's an ethos that means that I'd a woman responds to micro aggressions and put downs they are the ones who are being unpleasant, rude, can't take a joke etc. I see it here in comments all the time - that the male partner was in a bad mood, being rude or creating a bad atmosphere and forcing the wife or partner to make things okay by stepping on eggs shells to try to appease him or at least not make things worse. But in actual fact, would he accept the same behaviour in reverse and work as hard to make things better? No. So in the end whether the couple or family have a nice time is dependent on the woman buckling under to make things better. And over time accepting more and more that her feelings and needs are irrelevant or subservient to his. Women are taught: Learn to subvert your own expectations and happiness and you 'win' peace.

Secondly as mentioned before loving someone is not simply sticking the label in their forehead. But I love you. (And therefore can do what I want...). Loving someone is genuinely caring about their needs and wellbeing - it's not grandiose gestures to impress others - its everyday acts of kindness and care.

And finally marriage is a very durable model which is sanctioned by society and the state. We are taught that it's terrible to live without out it and frightening and fearful, that to leave it will damage us and our children. But once you leave it's palpably easy to live peacefully and happily. The biggest challenge is economic - being able to support yourself and your children. The other major challenge is overcoming the obstruction and anger of your ex-partner and society's constructs to make it hard to leave - the legal process and wider social acceptance. And finally there are small practical issues of all the household bills and machinery that need to be tended to. I'm not under-estimating how bad those barriers can be for some people. But actually, speaking as someone who left with a 5 yr old and a 7 yr old (now 21 and 19) the art of living as a divorced single family is joyful, easy, happy and peaceful. It's much easier. Making your own choices big and small. Tending to your own well-being not hiding it under a stone to allow their wishes, moods and needs to take precedence. And one of the greatest benefits is teaching your DC what life can be like independent and free so they don't follow the path of only serving to please others at the cost of their own well-being.

It seems pretty clear to me and I think others on this thread that you want don't want to continue in the marriage, but it's the process of ending the marriage that's keeping you there and the fear of regret. Is that also your view? Or is there still part of you that wants to stay for the marriage itself (for positive reasons rather than fear?)

I'm not sure if this counts as a positive reason or fear of losing that element, but I love that our daughter has access to us both at home, she loves spending time with us altogether, and that will stop if we separate. There's also the obvious matter of parenting being much easier when it's shared - I wasn't well yesterday and my husband was really kind to me, looked after me, and took the lead on childcare. Other than that, I guess it's the promise of what things could look like (happy life together, another child), if we did manage to work things out? I just don't know if we'd get there. At the moment, I'd love another child but can't see myself having one with him. I feel awful for saying that

You threw in at the start your H kept "saying it's over" - does he do this a lot now? How do you react? How does he return to things being "not over" as presumably they are?

Usually when he says this it's towards the end of some unpleasantness from him, so I would have already shut down and told him I wasn't discussing with him anymore. So I don't typically react. It's usually last thing at night so we go to sleep and things kind of just return to normal the next day, usually with an apology from him and a discussion around me needing to put more effort in.

Have you heard of the Karpman Drama Triangle? Might be useful for you to read about. It's about the dynamics of conflict in a relationship and the 'roles' people adopt, and how we switch back and forth between those positions.

Interesting you've mentioned this as I was just reading about it the other day! I can definitely recognise some of our dynamics there. I've also been reading 'counselling for toads' which talks about us being an adult, child, or parent in a relationship (with anyone), adult being the ideal healthy type of behaviour to display. My husband and I switch between child and parent in most conflict scenarios - I don't think either of us behave as an adult towards each other. We just have such an unhealthy dynamic.

Have you read about “the mean/sweet cycle”? Or the cycle of abuse? You’ve recognised it in your own relationship - in the recurrence of bad behaviour from your husband and panic from you until he’s back being nice again. Please do read up

I have, and I totally see how this applies now. Interestingly though I don't think this was the case before my affair, because there wasn't really any consistent cycle between us to the extent that there is now. He would have his own blow ups and outbursts which would happen according to whether he was drinking, how stressed he was and so on, and in between I'd just carry on as normal (albeit I would be tip toeing to avoid any unnecessary angst) . I felt much more steady in my own footing as I was comfortable that I was not in the wrong in any of our encounters. I can't say that now in light of the affair!

@QuentinBunbury thank you for the pdf link! I have that book downloaded, and am working my way to it


Sorry, posting in haste (again).

I wonder if waiting for the crunch moment is a bit of a red herring. Actually, you are scared that raising divorce or separation, or indeed pursuing it, will create an unsafe environment for you. In other words, the fear is that leaving or trying to leave will provoke the crunch moment. It is not that you need a crunch point to provoke you to leave. Does that make sense?

@Whatdirection
Yes, our 25th wedding anniversary would be in February of 2022. I just read your previous post and I can see many similarities between our husbands (X and STBX). Mine was not extreme in anything and that is why I stuck with him for so long. He was not “that bad”. However, as many posters mentioned, it was “death by a thousand cuts” for me. Day after day he wore me down and eventually, I could not take it anymore. Also, he literally killed my love for him, although of course, he would never understand it.

@helplesshopeless
I totally get it when you say, you wish he were physical at least once, so you can leave him. I wished for years that my STBX would cheat on me so that I could leave him (although I did suspect that many times but could never prove it). My marriage is very similar to yours in a way that there was never anything extraordinary happening between us, just small things, one after another, but these little things really affected me over the years to the point where I could not recognize myself. I became grumpy, bitter, cynical, angry and I hated myself because I became the exact opposite of what I was. I have to tell you that because of my husband I would often take my anger to my kids. I would yell and scream at them, I guess because I could not do it at him, and this is something I can never forgive myself for. What you say about wanting to get into the “safe zone” resonates deeply with me, because that is exactly what I have been doing for over two decades. I hated conflict (and with us it was never yelling and screaming at each other but more of a silent treatment), that I would either give in immediately and stop the confrontation, or simply not even start it at all, so as a result I feel, I did not really live my life the way I wanted it, it was mostly always his way. We would do what he wanted, how he wanted it and when he wanted it. It is a very sad way to live, I can tell you that. Last year I turned 50 and this woke me up in a way. I looked around and thought to myself, this is not the life I wanted for myself, I do not want to spend the rest of my life like this.

I can see that you are not ready to take the step, but please make sure you are ready when the time comes and do not do anything that will make it harder for you to leave. I have a feeling that you are much younger than me, so I really wish you will not waste decades of your life the way I did. Life should be enjoyed. Take care.

@Bouledeneige

So in the end whether the couple or family have a nice time is dependent on the woman buckling under to make things better. And over time accepting more and more that her feelings and needs are irrelevant or subservient to his. Women are taught: Learn to subvert your own expectations and happiness and you 'win' peace.
Secondly as mentioned before loving someone is not simply sticking the label in their forehead. But I love you. (And therefore can do what I want...). Loving someone is genuinely caring about their needs and well being - it's not grandiose gestures to impress others - its everyday acts of kindness and care.
And finally marriage is a very durable model which is sanctioned by society and the state. We are taught that it's terrible to live without out it and frightening and fearful, that to leave it will damage us and our children.

Your post has so many great points. Thank you.

He gets angry almost everyday, he builds up throughout the day, because you aren't performing as he wants.& this is when he's trying to be nice. & just this w/e when it should have been a nice family break.
He says "its over", as a threat repeatedly.
Every single day there is some sort of episode of nastiness.
The bar us really so low !
its not the way to live
& your daughter shouldn't have to witness all this appeasement, unreleased anger & reproach.

the fear is that leaving or trying to leave will provoke the crunch moment. It is not that you need a crunch point to provoke you to leave. Does that make sense?

That does make sense, thank you. I think though that I almost need a preliminary crunch moment to justify putting myself through the crunch moment that would follow separation! Otherwise I'd just feel like any 'separation crunch' was deserved and brought on myself.

@loveyourself2020 I am so sorry that you've felt stuck with your husband's behaviour for so long. I can't imagine enduring this for another 30 years. How are things going now with discussing your separation, has it progressed any further?

He gets angry almost everyday, he builds up throughout the day, because you aren't performing as he wants.& this is when he's trying to be nice.

Yes, I'm stuck feeling like it's my fault though- if it wasn't for my affair he'd be getting full marks for having eliminated all of his nasty behaviour. luckily our daughter doesn't really witness any of it, otherwise I'd perhaps have some more 'oomph' to do something about it.

I'm just feeling drained by it all now. We're still on edge with each other trying to anticipate each other's moods. I'm so run down, losing loads of weight, constantly getting colds. I feel like I need to allow some affection to show willing that I'm working on it which is also worrying me because I don't want to be deceiving him but also don't want to keep frustrating him. Gah! 🤦‍♀️

Yes, I'm stuck feeling like it's my fault though- if it wasn't for my affair he'd be getting full marks for having eliminated all of his nasty behaviour.
No no no no.

1. if it wasn't for your "affair" he would have had no reason to eliminate his nasty behaviour so he'd probably still be doing it
2. he'd just have found some other justification for his abuse. Probably just you withdrawing from the "affection" aka sex he feels entitled to would have done it.

Come on. That was a frustrating comment. He was like this before the affair. The affair is why he supposedly changed. He's being manipulative because he knows that you will happily beat yourself with the affair stick.

@helplesshopeless... I'm glad your weekend away wasn't a horrible disaster! It could have been incredibly stressful. Mind you, your whole life sounds pretty stressful really. But at least it wasn't like a horror film!

And thank you for the incredibly kind comments, re my mum and dad!

[BTW, as I think I've said before, I'm going to delete some of my more revealing posts. I'm sorry to mess up the thread by having "missing links," but I sometimes hyperventilate about how much info I've shared here 🤨 ... I just really relate to your situation.]

@TheThermalStair
Imagine if you pointed at a random man and said “look, he’s being kind to his wife - why can’t you be like that?” It would never happen would it.
That's genius, and made me laugh out loud!

@SecondRow
What if the crunch moment comes when you see your daughter emulating the appeasing behaviour towards her father. Will you wish you had made the move sooner?
As the daughter in this situation, I'd echo this -- especially as I then went on to mirror the unhealthy patterns of my parents' marriage with DH#1.

OP, I think you just need to watch and wait. I'm hoping one day you will look after yourself with the same tender care you lavish on your husband and child.

Don’t you think being constantly on edge, ill and losing weight and feeling under pressure to show affection (ie being slowly coerced into sex) is enough of a crunch? You are allowed to say no to all of that.

You can't imagine this for another 30 years, but 30 years doesn't happen all at once - it's just doing what you're doing now but 11,000 times. Waking up and not feeling like you can go. It requires no action to get you into this situation, you're already there. It requires action to exit. Otherwise 30 or more years of this is what is coming to you.

"I feel like I need to allow some affection to show willing that I'm working on it which is also worrying me because I don't want to be deceiving him but also don't want to keep frustrating him." This honestly makes me feel physically sick. Let's imagine a different scenario. Let's imagine your daughter is a teenager and becomes more withdrawn, more argumentative, and - without it being anyone's fault - for a while she doesn't want to cuddle you or hang out with you much. Would you a) harangue her daily about why she can't show more affection for you? After all other people's kids do. Bang on and on about how unfair it is on you. When you know she doesn't feel like being affectionate at the moment, you ask her to fake it and make more effort to make you feel better - she owes you a cuddle at least, as her parent. When she's still quiet and withdrawn you threaten to throw her out. b) respect her feelings, give her space, tell her you love her and try to rebuild that relationship in a constructive way, even though your feelings may be hurt.

Which would you do? Which would your husband do? Which is the right thing to do? Which is the one which treats everyone involved as people rather than property?

And if your husband did (a) and your daughter blamed herself for the situation, what would you say to her?

I think though that I almost need a preliminary crunch moment to justify putting myself through the crunch moment that would follow separation! Otherwise I'd just feel like any 'separation crunch' was deserved and brought on myself.

Do you mean justify it to yourself?
Ie you're saying if you left tomorrow, and he was an Extremely Extreme Dickhead (it would be more of a surprise if he wasn't!) then what you're saying is, on balance, given the stress of the divorce process on yourself you'd say wouldn't be actually worth it and you'd rather stay (for the rest of your life)? Or something else?

Who do you need to justify leaving to? To paraphrase PP: Yourself? Him? God?

I can't imagine enduring this for another 30 years

It could be another 50 years or more; look at my mum...

I can't imagine enduring this for another 30 years.
How long would you endure it? 12 years until your daughter is relatively mobile and would be able to move between parents independently? 18 years until she is 21 and might have left home? What does your choice depend on?

I'm just feeling drained by it all now. We're still on edge with each other trying to anticipate each other's moods. I'm so run down, losing loads of weight, constantly getting colds

did you speak to your sister in the end? You need some decent real life support OP, you don't want your "preliminary crunch" to be you ending up in hospital ill, and I mean that seriously

That's a good point @Cavagirl

I feel sorry for the OP, and also for the daughter who - if things continue - will just gradually witness her mum turning into a nervous, sickly shadow of her former jolly self

I then went on to mirror the unhealthy patterns of my parents' marriage with DH#1
In my case it's my mother who treated her husband (and children tbh) with anger and disrespect. Growing up with that does give you a skewed idea of what constitutes nice behaviour towards your spouse. I was always focused on not repeating my mother's behaviour myself, but actually let through some very selfish behaviour by my exh as he was not as obviously poorly behaved. I thought he'd make a nice husband and father because he didn't yell at people. That was my benchmark.

Oh @helplesshopeless you're getting a lot of well-meant advice on what you need to do, but I can see you feeling between a rock and a hard place; your 'D'H says you should be doing X, we say you should be doing Y...and you're seeing the sense in all of it, by turns.

No wonder you're getting exhausted and wrung out, you have no time to think your own thoughts...as it doesn't seem likely you'll be able to have some time away on your own, could you take to bed for a couple of days just feeling really unwell - whether you actually do or not - just to get some time to yourself? To rest and sleep if that's possible, and not even to think if you're not up to it, sometimes I find not thinking allows me to feel, and that's when I understand what I really want and need to do.

Everyone here is desperate to help you, that's where all the advice is coming from...but I know from my own situation it doesn't always feel that simple on the inside, no matter how clear cut it is to others

I'd just reiterate talking to someone in real life. Your sister!

Or at least tell more to the friends you've already spoken to, and reveal the full extent of what you're dealing with here.

How do you get on with your parents, OP? Sorry, it's a long thread, I think I remember they live fairly far away but are they supportive?

I was just wondering if there is any underlying disapproval of divorce or ideas about "broken families" there.

You seem possibly a bit stuck on the parents-together family model being best for your DD. To the extent that you might damage your own wellbeing by stuffing down your feelings to stay with H.

Support in real life is definitely the way to go, H has already got to you about how much you tell your friends. Are your parents receptive?

First: what you describe is called domestic abuse, plain and simple. This makes you a victim of domestic abuse.
Whatever you do. DON'T EVER LEAVE YOUR JOB at the request of him or anyone else. Don't feel guilty for being infatuated or attracted to someone else. This happens when you are being treated badly. He should feel guilty for treating you so badly. Do not allow him to use your affair as a weapon. On trust: he either chooses to trust you or he doesn't. You don't need to prove your trustworthiness to him. This would be one Pilar of abusive behaviour; requiring you to prove you can be trusted. Jalousy is not acceptable and is a sign of his insecurity, nothing else.
Yes love can be found again but it's not up to you to go and look for it. It's up to him to treat you, care for you, love you and most importantly trust you as a loving husband. Love will follow, maybe, from you. Don't however accept that this comes without effort. You need to put your demands down: You need him to seek counseling first. After that you can do couples counseling. You need him to stop any form of drinking. You need him to stop any form of verbal abuse. You need him to stop any form of emotional abuse. (This includes him asking you to leave your job, or making you feel guilty for your affair)
Look at it like this: if you have a friend who one day starts shouting at you every day and gives you a slap everyday and he does this for years. At some point you are going to stop liking him and you will find another friend. Would you feel guilty about that? Or would you accept that the abusive friend tries to make you feel guilty?
I think and hope not.
If that abusive friend wanted to be your friend again, what would you say?
Well say the same thing to your husband.
Also being abusive is a gross breach of trust. You married your husband out of trust that he would take care of you and be nice to you right? Well he broke that trust through his behaviour.
Tell him that he needs to change himself and for himself first. He needs to want to change from his own inner core. And when that change manifests itself in positive loving behaviour he stands a chance of regaining your love. But make clear that it's by no means a guarantee and it shouldn't be. He shouldn't only change to win you back he should change to become a better individual. Because as someone else has said on here if he changes only to win you back he will revert back to his abusive behaviour as soon as he has you back.

I can't imagine enduring this for another 30 years
this or worse, as his charade is failing,

You say he would be getting full marks if it wasn't for the affair, but nothing would have changed had there not been a rival.
He would still be speaking to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical)...... but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly

Has he even explained this hate ? because let's face it, it's not the behaviour of someone who loves their partner.