Does love come back/what do I do

[helplesshopeless]

Nc for this.

Advice needed please, I've created a huge mess and can't see a way out/what is for the best. This may be long.

I am married with a 3yo. DH has always had a nasty temper, I've suggested anger management counselling numerous times but to no avail. The last few years since having my child have been really difficult. He's generally spoken to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical). On a day to day basis we would be civil enough to eachother, but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly. We have had happy family times too and we both dote on our child.

All of this treatment from my DH culminated in my withdrawing from him and ultimately having an affair the last few months, with someone who made me feel loved and cared for. It was mainly an emotional affair but there was a small amount of physical contact (we did not have sex). This is someone that I work with, so although we're wfh at the moment, he is in team zoom meetings etc.

My DH found everything out last week. He is angry but also devastated. I have never seen him so upset and it has shocked me that he cares that much about me. He has completely woken up to how he's been treating me and is committed to having anger management therapy and working on things with me. I obviously am ashamed of what I have done and there is no excuse for my behaviour, but he does recognise that his treatment of me took me to a place where I was open to someone else. I still can't believe I had an affair because it is so against my morals and I fully deserve to be judged for it.

We are working on things and will get relationship counselling. There's a lot of self esteem issues that my husband struggles with, especially since we had our child as he's felt like he's been stuck on the outside looking in, and he thinks this is why he's been treating me how he has. I do understand this and it makes sense, but it doesn't change how he's treated me in the past and how damaging I have found it.

My husband wants me to leave my work so there's no interaction with the other man. I totally understand his point but am reluctant to do this as I'd then feel trapped.

I want to get back to a happy place with my husband. I don't want to feel trapped with him. I don't know if I can find my way back to loving him, whether all of this is coming too late after years of awful treatment. I accept I have behaved in a disgusting way and deserve all of this fall out, and am so worried about the impact on our child and how I'd manage if we separate. I am also concerned about the impact on my husband if things don't work as he has been explaining how it will crush him and he'd never be able to trust anyone again if we don't manage to work through this.

I just don't know if my heart is in this anymore, I want to be able to be happy with him and love him and our family deserves for me to work on this and fully commit to getting back on track, but I have no idea if I'll ever get back to where I need to be.

I am ashamed to admit I still have feelings for the other guy. I could obviously never be with him anyway so that is irrelevant, but it's clouding my judgement. I need to hear from people who have learnt to love their husbands again. Is that a thing? Will we ever get there?

I still can't believe any of this is happening.

@Cavagirl

Oh alcemeg You couldn't have made her change her mind. Probably her hearing the reality from you would make it worse. It can be heartbreaking I know. But remember you being happy is probably a huge source of joy for her

Thank you, @Cavagirl

I think you're right that she gets a kind of vicarious joy from seeing me happily married (second time around; DH#1 mirrored her situation!).

However, there are headfuck scenarios. For example, a billion years ago when I was at uni she wrote to me saying how unhappy she was, talking about leaving (empty nest? I was the last to leave). Only I never got the letter for about 6 months, and then didn't know how to reply. You can imagine how I replay this in my head, although I know it's daft!

ahhhh I hope there is life after life! 😉

I just had a stroke of genius, but you will have to bear with me as it was on my second glass of wine 😋 so perhaps I'll log in tomorrow and apologise for this particular ramble!

It just occurred to me that a question worth asking is:
Is life easier, or harder, with him around?

Honestly, I used to look forward to DH#1 being away so that I had some space to relax. (I felt guilty about this, but still.)

With DH#2, I know that life could throw anything at me and he would lift me up and help me through it.

I suspect that we get into relationships with men who we support unconditionally, secretly knowing we're the stronger one. This is absolutely fine until we unexpectedly find ourselves needing some kind of support. Then, it can feel very lonely.

Compassion is a wonderful quality, but it must be mutual.

Oh the letter
The thing is though, if you'd replied and said "yes I think you should leave" and encouraged her to leave, then there's always a danger you'd have felt responsible for the results. Which is far too great a responsibility for anyone. It would have needed to come from her. So, in a way, you not receiving that letter may have been a good thing.

Is life easier, or harder, with him around?
Great question.

But then if the answer is "harder" for you but from his perspective life gets harder if you're not around, it's again a question of mustering the courage to prioritise yourself and take action. Which I guess is what OP is struggling with ultimately.

Thank you again, @Cavagirl. That makes sense (about the letter) and has really helped me to come to terms with it!

Is life easier, or harder, with him around?

Not so simple, it depends if you include who is providing the household income ?

Ex. my life would have been infinitely harder if I he was gone & I had to provide for the children.
I think the other question could be; if you had no children would you walk away My answer would have been a resounding yes.
It wasn't a case of just getting a job in my case, as I was living in his country, not fluent in the language & initially not legally allowed to work, or take the DC back to my home country

Alcemeg the other option is that you might have said to leave, and then she anyway not followed through.

Not saying this is like your parents, but I remember my mother having a conversation with me when I was about seventeen, about leaving my father. I said understanding things because their relationship was very volatile and quite toxic. They have now been married for over fifty years.

I remember the headfuck to use your word, of these kind of conversations and then both her and my father basically teaming against me when they did not like a choice I had made. It was brutal, in some ways.

Dear God, thinking about it, no wonder my boundaries were screwed!

Unrelated, i think it was Whatdirection said at the end of her post that she did not know who her ex was. And that jumped out at me, because for me now, ex can be quite polite and charming, so I see what she is saying. And for some reason this morning I remembered one incident where ex was so staggeringly rude (not to me, but I was caught up in it) and it was so embarrassing. There was no excuse, no tiredness, no misunderstanding, nothing to excuse it. And that made me think, that was not me, it was not caused by me, nothing I could have done in our marriage to fix it, as it was not to do with our relationship, but that is how he behaved. That was who he was.

‘wise discernment’, which is about knowing when a situation is abusive, traumatic or detrimental to your own well-being and protecting yourself. I am not great at this, as it is something I have needed to learn, that not everyone starts out with the premise of kindness and compassion.
Yes so true.
Unfortunately I've started to think those of us without the "wise discernment" training as children are predisposed to get into abusive relationships.
I'm much better at recognising when I'm at risk, the thing i struggle with now is what is the appropriate response to protect myself. My default is to withdraw completely but that can feel a bit OTT. I'm trying to learn how to withdraw my energy without physically withdrawing, if that makes sense.

Just dropping by to send hugs to Alcemeg and sympathy with the situation regarding her parents .

I'm willing to bet ,maybe because I'm older ,that Alcemeg's mother will have found a way to not care about her husbands slings and arrows . To have the peace that comes with accepting what she can't change and to let it go by her .

Which is not how it should be and definitely not how it should have been .I know she will be so happy that her daughter has found a loving relationship .

Thank you, @KatySun and @peridito! I'm sure mum is happy for me. I just wish I could feel the same for her. She "found peace" with being with dad years ago, when they retired to a quiet little village and, for a while, enjoyed a new lease of life. Then, gradually, everyone they knew seems to have died.

When they celebrated their golden wedding anniversary, mum and I had a little joke between us that that was quite enough, thank you. Little did either of us know, back then, that they'd find themselves nearly 20 years on from that, married for 68 years... with dad now beginning to lose the thread and sometimes rambling incoherently. Yet still managing to put her down!

There was a point in our call yesterday where she just had to point out quietly that he was talking nonsense, and he batted back immediately, "Well, I have to talk nonsense just so that YOU can understand it." Even when he's losing his marbles, the habitual framework of cruelty is firmly in place. In fact, it seems to be what he leans on when all else fails.

Anyway, I won't bang on about it. I suppose it might have some relevance to this thread in that it shows how self-sacrifice for the sake of the children is not always the best idea. I've had a lifetime of anguish and guilt where mum is concerned!

Not to mention anguish and guilt where dad is concerned. He's my dad, has many fine qualities, and I love him; and I feel absolutely damned to hell and back for writing about him here like this.

...oh, and I suppose it's a warning tale about choosing who you grow old with. Growing old is full of surprises 😨

Mum's way of coping used to be to go for a walk round the block. Now, with limited mobility, she can't even do that...

Oh Alcemeg ,I'm so sorry .That wrenches my heart . I'm sure your existence warms your mum through and through .

And yes ,good points about growing old with someone and staying for the children .

alcemeg huge solidarity I love him; and I feel absolutely damned to hell and back for writing about him here like this and this is why I don't feel able to say any more from my position but I completely understand.
It's also important to realise that sadly the expectations most women had back then for themselves and their husbands were totally different. Society has changed hugely in the last 50 years but the person they married hasn't and that person's expectations of how a marriage works hasn't. I'm not excusing it - plenty of marriages of that length are a lot more equal - but it must be quite challenging as a 70/80 something woman today hearing the dynamics of their marriage being described as abusive when at the point they married that was often just normal. Society has come a long way thank God but for that generation of women the internal conflicts between expecting more/guilt/ breaking vows/ financial dependence/ and on and on must be enormous and I can't pretend to tell someone in that position what to do other than, if they get to the point where they want to leave then they should. But I don't blame anyone at all in that position for not wanting to leave, on balance.

I bet your mum is so proud of you for having broken the pattern.

And yes, a cautionary tale for those looking at how the future might be. What looks today like a scary thing to do is often far less scary than the alternative long term.

Hello OP. Just found your thread. I've also been in an abusive controlling relationship. And found comfort and emotional support elsewhere for a while. So we have a lot in common. You're doing lots of thinking about the situation you find yourself in.

There are many pages of detailed discussions on this thread. Let's take it back to basics. He has treated you badly for years. You no longer love him. It really is that simple. However much therapy you have, however much every detail of the past, present and future is pored over, you don't love him any more. And that is absolutely fine. It's really important to know that.

You will be happier once you're away from him. Your DD will grow up with a much happier mother and she won't be living with parents who have patched things up for her sake. I had an angry father, and parents who had vicious arguments. It was horrendous. I also have a friend who stayed married 'for the sake of the children'. You could sense the making do, the desperation of this not being what one parent wanted.

Please do take a step back from all the in depth thinking, and look at the absolute basics from your own point of view (not his). You deserve a better life

Hope your weekend away wasn't too dreary in this weather @helplesshopeless

Op
It took years of his abuse to wear away your love & respect for him. If, and it's a mighty big if, if you are ever to regain that love & respect it may take years to get back. It will certainly take longer than the few weeks he seems to have allotted you.

I agree with others that this show is over and all you're doing is delaying the inevitable. You can leave him at any time AND you can take your DD. Yes you will have to agree residency and access arrangement and that what solicitors are for.

By staying all you are doing is running yourself down and winding him up.

@helplesshopeless my heart truly goes out to you 💔💔 I wholeheartedly believe that you may stay for now, but one day it’ll be like a switch has been flicked. There won’t necessarily even be a row, you’ll just come to realise that you can no longer do this and you’ll know in your heart of hearts that you’re doing the right thing without any guilt attached.

@Alcemeg, @KatySun, @IND1A, @loveyourself2020, @peridito and everyone else who shared insights to their lives, I applaud you all 💝💝
You’ve all given me food for thought and plenty of links to work through.

This popped up on my Facebook page tonight and I though I should share:

@helplesshopeless are you OK?

Like that loveyourself2020

I like we might be in similar boats leaving very long term relationships.

We would have celebrated our 25 year wedding anniversary in July.

I think l have to develop new neural pathways in how l view him. For years l have given him the benefit of the doubt time and time again and blamed myself for feeling negative about him.

It’s easier said than done though.

Also really hoping helplesshopeless is ok too x

Hello everyone

I am absolutely blown away by this thread - I wasn't sure what to expect when I first posted (probably mainly a bashing for my affair), but I honestly so appreciate how you've all stuck with me. I also love that this has turned into a general community of support for each other. You're all so kind and uplifting and I really do think that this thread is a fabulous example of the best mumsnet has to offer! So thank you again to you all

There's an incredible number of interesting and thoughtful posts since I've been away over the weekend (you are all wonderful philosophers!) and I feel wholly unqualified to contribute to them

In terms of where I'm up to, our weekend away was nice at times (seeing our daughter enjoy it was lovely) but also testing in other moments. My husband had his usual struggles of seeing other happy families, getting frustrated that I wasn't putting effort in to be affectionate, getting slightly unpleasant about the affair, and saying its over. So things were quite up and down in that respect.

I had a bit of a revelation (it feels like it shouldn't be a revelation because it's such an obvious thing really) that whenever he is spiralling off into unpleasantness, I am just desperate to get back to feeling 'safe' (i.e. when he is in a nice mood and is being kind to me) - I will basically say anything to appease and get back to that 'safe zone.' And then once we're back in the safe zone, I will be feeling much calmer and happier (almost grateful) but once that settles down i'm back in turmoil about the fact that I need to maintain that and I don't know if I can give him what he needs for that, in the timescale that he needs. Of course, any discussions around separation or divorce feel extremely unsafe, because I know how he will behave when if it gets to that, and I am just completely unable to do anything that pushes me out of the safe zone into the more dangerous waters.

@Peach1886 @Alcemeg discussed a waiting for a 'crunch' moment before deciding to make the leap - that's definitely where I was subconsciously I think prior to my affair. I really hope this does not offend or upset anyone, but I remember wishing he'd just be physical when he was angry, just once, so I could finally leave (he has never ever been physical and I know he wouldn't hurt me like that). And now I feel like I'm never going to get a crunch moment because he's working so hard on being a better person and a kind partner to me.

@Alcemeg I don't feel I have any wise words to offer in addition to what other lovely posters have said about your mum's situation, but I am sending huge hugs. For her to have raised such a thoughtful, kind and compassionate daughter, she must be an incredibly special lady.

Ah helplesshopeless it seems so sad that you don't think things are bad enough for you to seperate .

Wanting to leave is reason enough and doesn't have to be justified. But honestly ,what you've said above about the turmoil of trying to stay in your safe mode and turning yourself inside out to get back there because his behaviour /words distress you so much ,sounds awful and is no way to live . And ,I mean this kindly and to give you strength ,can't be a good role model for your daughter .

I do feel for you .

Welcome back OP. Have you read about “the mean/sweet cycle”? Or the cycle of abuse? You’ve recognised it in your own relationship - in the recurrence of bad behaviour from your husband and panic from you until he’s back being nice again. Please do read up.

Also just take a moment to reflect on these being what you see as the minor blips in a weekend away: “My husband had his usual struggles of seeing other happy families, getting frustrated that I wasn't putting effort in to be affectionate, getting slightly unpleasant about the affair, and saying its over.”

None of that is normal. Verbally chastising you for not living up to the supposed standards of other couples? Not normal. Imagine if you pointed at a random man and said “look, he’s being kind to his wife - why can’t you be like that?” It would never happen would it.

helplesshopeless

I can understand you want a “crunch” moment but what if that crunch moment where he does something never comes.
What if it is more a realisation that you don’t love him and don’t want to live like this anymore. It could take years to get to that stage but it will come.
Do you want to waste years of your life waiting for “permission” to leave.

I feel like I'm never going to get a crunch moment because he's working so hard on being a better person and a kind partner to me

This could be read that he is working hard on keeping you dangling. It is like a cat playing with a mouse. You know either the mouse will escape or the game continues until the mouse is broken.

What if the crunch moment comes when you see your daughter emulating the appeasing behaviour towards her father. Will you wish you had made the move sooner?

I don't mean this flippantly or harshly, I know you need to gather your strength. But you need to get space to do that and if he doesn't want you to have that, the cycle continues.

What you have said about almost wanting physical abuse is not uncommon. So many people (mainly women) endure such torturous emotional and verbal abuse that they view physical violence as an obvious route out.

What you have been suffering is emotional and mental abuse and is no less harmful than any physical actions. I think you need to give yourself permission to recognise this. In much the same way mental illness carries such stigma vs physical illnesses.