Does love come back/what do I do

[helplesshopeless]

Nc for this.

Advice needed please, I've created a huge mess and can't see a way out/what is for the best. This may be long.

I am married with a 3yo. DH has always had a nasty temper, I've suggested anger management counselling numerous times but to no avail. The last few years since having my child have been really difficult. He's generally spoken to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical). On a day to day basis we would be civil enough to eachother, but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly. We have had happy family times too and we both dote on our child.

All of this treatment from my DH culminated in my withdrawing from him and ultimately having an affair the last few months, with someone who made me feel loved and cared for. It was mainly an emotional affair but there was a small amount of physical contact (we did not have sex). This is someone that I work with, so although we're wfh at the moment, he is in team zoom meetings etc.

My DH found everything out last week. He is angry but also devastated. I have never seen him so upset and it has shocked me that he cares that much about me. He has completely woken up to how he's been treating me and is committed to having anger management therapy and working on things with me. I obviously am ashamed of what I have done and there is no excuse for my behaviour, but he does recognise that his treatment of me took me to a place where I was open to someone else. I still can't believe I had an affair because it is so against my morals and I fully deserve to be judged for it.

We are working on things and will get relationship counselling. There's a lot of self esteem issues that my husband struggles with, especially since we had our child as he's felt like he's been stuck on the outside looking in, and he thinks this is why he's been treating me how he has. I do understand this and it makes sense, but it doesn't change how he's treated me in the past and how damaging I have found it.

My husband wants me to leave my work so there's no interaction with the other man. I totally understand his point but am reluctant to do this as I'd then feel trapped.

I want to get back to a happy place with my husband. I don't want to feel trapped with him. I don't know if I can find my way back to loving him, whether all of this is coming too late after years of awful treatment. I accept I have behaved in a disgusting way and deserve all of this fall out, and am so worried about the impact on our child and how I'd manage if we separate. I am also concerned about the impact on my husband if things don't work as he has been explaining how it will crush him and he'd never be able to trust anyone again if we don't manage to work through this.

I just don't know if my heart is in this anymore, I want to be able to be happy with him and love him and our family deserves for me to work on this and fully commit to getting back on track, but I have no idea if I'll ever get back to where I need to be.

I am ashamed to admit I still have feelings for the other guy. I could obviously never be with him anyway so that is irrelevant, but it's clouding my judgement. I need to hear from people who have learnt to love their husbands again. Is that a thing? Will we ever get there?

I still can't believe any of this is happening.

@Alcemeg
Thank you and yes, wouldn't that be something.

@loveyourself2020

OMG, I love you guys. Op thank you for starting this thread and all of you amazing women who come here and share their experiences and their wisdom with us, thank you, than you, thank you. Being one currently dealing with separation after being with my STBX for 26 years your posts are like a medicine for me. I wake up every day eager to read this thread.

@IND1A
It’s very hard to accept that someone you love ( and who says he loves you ) is treating you badly because he’s not a very nice person.

This is so true. For me it was a sort of a revelation when I realized that my husband is not a "nice guy". It was years ago and I was really angry at him over something, I do not remember what, and I was constantly talking to myself in my head, over and over, this and that and this was so tiring for me, draining my energy. At one point I made my self stop with the thoughts and said, "all this is true but deep down he IS a good guy". And then I stopped and thought, "no, he really is not". Not only that he did not treat me with love and compassion, he really is not someone who likes to help, who offers help or gives it wholeheartedly. He does not think about other people in terms of what they need and how he can make their life better. It is very difficult for him to sacrifice anything for others, money, his time, his attention.

But this revelation was really hard for me, it still is, to accept, that the person I love and chose to have kids with is not even a "nice guy". Even though he hurt me so much so many times, the fact that I could not at least say that he is a nice guy, generally, to others, was so painful for me. But this definitely helped me in this process of deciding weather or not to leave him, although it took a few more years to get there. I think this is the problem for many women that no matter how unhappy they are they keep telling themselves that their DH is a "nice guy", he is "not so bad" and such. It is sad, though, that it is easier to accept that he is bad if he is not so nice to others, as if the fact that they are being mean and abusive to us is not such a big deal.

Respectfully I think that is your ego at play.

Our egos often subliminally control us.

Your ego I suggest was stopping you from admitting that he actually wasn't a nice decent guy.

Your ego was stopping you from admitting that YOU fxxked up by choosing someone not very nice.

I'm not scolding you.

We all do it in our lives, with friends, parents, family and men.
We refuse to accept what is layed out in front of us...bad choices, bad decisions.

Until we sit with our thoughts and accept that yea, I fxxk up.

I choose badly, made a not great decision.
Own it, and after that acceptance of our very human mistake, decide we are not going to be defined by it, and move on.

Life is so short and precious.
Unfortunately it takes aging to really get that.

Change is good.

Moving forward is positive.

Once we accept our frailty and failures, and decide to move forward, life can change for the better.

Ego stymies us and stops us accepting mistakes and moving forward.

Hope that makes sense.

loveyourself 100% and/or "he's a great dad" followed by much evidence of him, actually, not being a great dad.

Much of this blindspot I have concluded comes from applying the behaviour to ourselves, by that I mean "gosh what must I have been through/how awful would I have to be feeling for me to behave in that shitty way - therefore that must be how the other person is feeling - therefore they are worthy of my empathy/help and I should look beyond the behaviour because underneath they must be in real pain to behave in such a way (because that's the only explanation that makes sense to me, if it was me)."

It's a bit of a revelation that actually the kind of behaviour that would, in you, be as a result of extreme trauma/unhappiness/pain can actually be caused by something far more benign in someone else.

@billy1966
I choose badly, made a not great decision.
Own it, and after that acceptance of our very human mistake, decide we are not going to be defined by it, and move on.

Yes!!!!!!!!
I can't quite believe the mistakes I've made in the past. I think that's why I'm challenging the notions of self-sacrifice and compromise, because... for a kind person who is desperate to give others what she never had, they can be an invitation to disaster.

@Cavagirl ... Exactly!

I think there is a danger of saying we made bad choices, bad decisions, and then that becoming another stick with which we beat ourselves, never mind any one else doing it. Something might seem like the most rational and sensible choice in the world, with the information we have available at the time, or the conditioning or the societal expectations. And indeed, it might continue to seem a good and sensible choice until something changes, whether that be abusive behaviour, being left for someone else, meeting someone else, whatever happens to make the relationship untenable. It does not mean we necessarily should have known in the first place, and therefore made a bad choice. It means that we did not have the experience we subsequently gained, that is all, and then there is a disconnect between what we believed and hoped for in the person we first met and got to know, and what we subsequently learned about that person, often once children made it harder to leave or we were exhausted and tired and wondering why on earth the person who promised to love and cherish us was not doing so. If that is accompanied with emotional abuse, then of course we look inwards first of all to change our behaviour or our expectations or whatever. And if you are emotionally abused, you will have someone telling you it is your fault.

And then to leave and someone say, well, that was a bad decision, a bad choice - that assumes that you could have known in advance and becomes another thing to blame oneself for. But maybe I misunderstand, I am tired.

For all we have been through court and a very bitter situation, I can now stand and talk with my ex in a perfectly natural way and see the man I did fall in love with and know, with my own past, why I did, I don’t think that was so absurd. If I did not know from my own experience and I had not written several journals how that then became damaging, it would be easy to think I imagined it.

I agree entirely however that we should not be defined by what has happened to us and what we were not able to make better, though. It is not failure, but experience and growth.

And the whole sacrifice thing...

Not so sure.

First love yourself.
Value yourself.
Choose carefully.
Choose wisely.

Don't put any dog in the street before yourself.
Screw that.

I have two daughter and i sure as hell am not teaching them ANYTHING that resembles sacrifice.

I have a good kind husband, children and some very dear long term friends.

A very small circle who I would EVER consider NOW putting myself out for.

When I was young and naive I was at times too kind and generous.
I have massively pulled back from the bullshit idea propagated by men that a good women is a woman who sacrifices herself.

Nope.
My girls are being told love yourself first.
Sacrificing yourself is HUGELY overrated.

@KatySun
It is not failure, but experience and growth.

That's it, in a nutshell.

I'm actually really glad I made so many mistakes; I'd never have learned otherwise.

I will, however, take a pop at the expectations of compromise and self-sacrifice. These seem to be drilled into females from a very early age, unless perhaps it's a biological thing to do with child rearing (?). Either way, it puts us at a disadvantage when it comes to working out the best way forward.

I don’t think I have been arguing for self-sacrifice at all, though. As a single parent of two children, if is a bit hard to avoid but I don’t see it as sacrifice, just family life when you are the resident parent with not much support. It is different to sacrificing your needs when there is another grown adult there who is supposed to work with you in a mutually supportive way.

But I am tired so I am signing off now as I might not be following properly or making any sense. Take care

So many wise words on this thread - it’s becoming my daily ‘food’

What l struggled with my XH is that at times he could be lovely- good company, loving, thoughtful- in fact many of the things that the lucky posters have found in their better relationships second time around - he could be that person. I didn’t feel it was an act.

However he reacted very badly to stress and illness. He suffered from anxiety so this wasn’t infrequent. This made him grumpy, paranoid, whiny and demanding. He also had a habit of ‘putting his foot in it’, just being thoughtless and unaware - it was never intentional, always an accident. Sometimes l likened him to a ‘Frank Spencer’ type of character. Over the years l lost respect for him due to his immaturity and poor decision making.

However l also 100% believed him to be loyal and this was a big plus point for me. So when he confessed to some historic hook ups last summer, the rug well and truly was pulled from under me.

Of course his hook ups were ‘accidental’ because he was drunk! We were unable to work past them as he couldn’t give me the space to heal without pressuring me.

Today he moved out a lot of his stuff. It felt a bit of a landmark day. Even though he is not getting his internet connected until Monday, l came home to find he had taken the router with him leaving me with no internet for the rest of the weekend. I contacted him feeling very annoyed - of course it was just an ‘accident’ - he assumed it was ok. How on earth he thought it was ok to disconnect me l have no idea - another Frank Spencer moment.

It reminded me of how difficult he could be to live with. Having to be the adult far more to his child.

My struggles have been around ‘how decent is he really?’ Have l misjudged him? He ‘messes’ up but can he help it?

There can be so many shades of grey in a person. But l know l feel more myself now than l have for years. As my energy is not being sucked out of me in order to support him. I have hardly missed him.

But l still question who he really is.

@KatySun Children are a whole different kettle of fish. I really wasn't having a go at you, or that situation.

@Whatdirection, OMG! Early days for you! Day 1! Wishing you every happiness as you recover from this deeply selfish/unaware child person 😃

@QuentinBunbury
It's not a sacrifice and for most people there's an assumption that's how your relationship works. You put their needs first, they put yours first, that's what love is.
The problem comes when you meet someone who is not like that. You put their needs first and they put their needs first. Their needs are more than met and your aren't. It's insidious though because "they love you" so therefore you can't believe they wouldn't place any importance on your needs

This is definitely what happened to me. I thought that loving someone meant putting his needs before mine and so I did. It took me a long time before I realized and admitted to myself that my DH is not doing the same.

@Mix56
In a difference of opinion once, I said accused my P of always putting himself first, he looked at me with astonishment & said, "of course", as if doing anything else was unthinkable, he said, don't you ?
This laterally happened to me too. I was accusing my DH of being selfish and always thinking of himself first, when he looked at me like I am from another planet, saying, of course I do.

@billy1966
Yes, you may be right that one of the problems is that you do not want to believe, accept that you made such a big mistake, that you did not see it coming, that out of billions of people in this world you chose this one to spend the rest of your life with, have kids with.

@KatySun
You are also correct. It takes time to get to know a person. You have to live with them, share life with them, be in some difficult situations with them to really see their true self. Plus I think when we are younger we are much more patient and resilient. I find that as I am aging I just cannot take anybody’s bulshit any more. Not like I used to be able to.

I sometimes wonder if I gave to partners what I most wanted for myself: understanding and tolerance.

Part of me must have thought: If someone had only listened to me, or respected me, instead of putting me down, imagine my potential.

Therefore, imagine THEIR potential if I do that for them!

Yep. I totally internalised the whole "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" of my youth (I'm not religious but had some religious influence as a child).
That only works if everyone is playing by the same rules.

What l struggled with my XH is that at times he could be lovely- good company, loving, thoughtful- in fact many of the things that the lucky posters have found in their better relationships second time around - he could be that person. I didn’t feel it was an act.

Yep. My exH was like this too. In fact he was like this the majority of the time.

But then he was also the man who called me a cunt in arguments, told me he didn't love me he hated me, told me I was vanilla and prudish in bed, told me I was awful at housework, that my vagina was weird but it was OK cos he liked it, wouldn't let me do the shopping because I spent too much, wouldn't let me do the laundry because I hung it up wrong, and spent our joint savings on sex workers.

Although I still can't say it for myself, it makes me so sad that so many women accept appalling treatment because "he can be lovely".

Sorry. I've had wine and the anger spills out sometimes..I spend a lot of time wondering what I missed but really i think was just too kind and I don't want to change that about myself. It's so hard.

@Whatdirection

Kindly, he didn't think?

Nope, he just doesn't give a shit under the lying guise of I didn't think.

I can only how much you have put up with if you accept that type of lying bullshit.

How great he is gone.
Your life can only get easier.

I choose badly, made a not great decision
Own it, and after that acceptance of our very human mistake, decide we are not going to be defined by it, and move on

Life is so short and precious
Unfortunately it takes aging to really get that

Change is good

Moving forward is positive

Once we accept our frailty and failures, and decide to move forward, life can change for the better

With respect @billy1966, I think it’s a lot more complicated than that if you have children together. It’s not just our “ Ego stymies us and stops us accepting mistakes and moving forward”.

It’s the fact that splitting up our children’s home is a very big deal and I think that very few mothers do that lightly.

Women are aware that a significant proportion of non resident fathers stop seeing their children within a few years. No that’s not the mothers fault but she fears the impact on her children.

Most women earn less than men. Most / many mothers work part time and take on jobs that fit around their partner so earn even less. Their jobs have lower pensions and promotion prospects. Their earning capacity is adversely affected for decades.

Single mums earn less because they have the children living with them more and have to pay for childcare . Many fathers only have their children when they are not at work.

Employers are sympathetic to the needs of single dads - less so mums.

Some mothers have moved area or even country to support their partners career. Often the law will be used to prevent them moving back as it will be inconvenient for him.

If women and men had the same economic resources , social and legal support, women would be able to leave bad relationships sooner.

I agree IND1A, and that is before you get into the emotional manipulation and control in some relationships which stop you seeing things clearly. And of course, it is not unreasonable to try to fix things first, and that is hard if you are still subject to emotional manipulation and control, because it is not in your power.

In terms of being kind, Quentin, and wanting to remain so, yes, the world needs more kindness and compassion, not less. However, what sticks with me is what Tara Brach (I think) calls ‘wise discernment’, which is about knowing when a situation is abusive, traumatic or detrimental to your own well-being and protecting yourself. I am not great at this, as it is something I have needed to learn, that not everyone starts out with the premise of kindness and compassion. But if there is a lesson I would most like my DC to learn, it is ‘wise discernment’!

One thing which came to mind which moves slightly away from the sacrifice/selfish dichotomy is that we all have our own values. So I was recalling a book by Martin Seligmann, I think I have that right, it is in my office so I cannot check, which is about identifying your own core values and then about how living your life according to these leads to greater happiness (again I am paraphrasing, probably badly). I remember one of mine (there are some lists and exercises to make you think about this) was around justice and fairness. So of course, that shapes what I think about equality, other people might have different values which allow them to view situations differently. Not sure if that makes sense.

Clearly there are objective definitions of coercive control and abuse, and part of the problem is recognising it, so I am not saying that an abusive situation is a question of perspective, I am thinking more generally about perdito s question a while back.

Alcemeg for you too, and all the lovely posters on here who are teasing out these issues. I hope hopelesshelpless finds something of use in here so that she does not feel so hopeless or helpless.

Wait ?wot ? Whatdirection, he took the router, because he was careless? didn't think ? I find that hard to believe, dare I add, you are still making excuses for him, as per, "he is a nice guy" described in these last few posts...
It wasn't a ‘mess’ up, he can help it? was a "fuck you" action, it was,
I need it, I want it, I got it...... if it's inconvenient for you, it doesn't matter, because he is more important.

I heard this song on the radio this morning helplesshopeless
It made me think of your thread.

mix56 I think it can be both, it can be complete thoughtlessness in the sense of not even considering the other person. That to me doesn't sing "nice guy" because the absence of consideration can be just as destructive as actively thinking "well fuck you".
My struggles have been around ‘how decent is he really?’ Have l misjudged him? He ‘messes’ up but can he help it?
If he couldn't help it, is it still your job to fix him?

There's a couple of interesting themes on this thread -

1. having discovered the person I'm committed to has flaws which negatively impact me, how far should I go to accept them? How far can I bend myself into another shape to enable them to exist as they are, without me breaking?
2. If the answer is - it's too far, I would break - however I feel obliged to stay because of the guilt I feel at leaving. And the guilt is multi-layered: guilt at the immediate effects on him, DC, others; guilt at breaking a promise/vow; and guilt for imagined future scenarios where I regret leaving and therefore feel guilty about the imagined transgression against my future self.

So how far should I sacrifice myself to bend out of shape and to assuage my guilt?

I've seen on this board a lot the phrase "women are not therapy for damaged men" and I think it's so true.

Somewhere earlier I said I think it's about compromise and excess. Is it a sacrifice or is it compromise? Is it reciprocated? Is there balance? In so many of the examples on this thread there is no balance or reciprocation. The primary issue is then about over coming the guilt to take action. And then sense of guilt is often so powerful you end up revisiting the sacrifice needed - is it really so bad? But really it's staying to avoid the way the idea of leaving makes you feel.

@IND1A

I choose badly, made a not great decision Own it, and after that acceptance of our very human mistake, decide we are not going to be defined by it, and move on

Life is so short and precious
Unfortunately it takes aging to really get that

Change is good

Moving forward is positive

Once we accept our frailty and failures, and decide to move forward, life can change for the better

With respect @billy1966, I think it’s a lot more complicated than that if you have children together. It’s not just our “ Ego stymies us and stops us accepting mistakes and moving forward”.

It’s the fact that splitting up our children’s home is a very big deal and I think that very few mothers do that lightly.

Women are aware that a significant proportion of non resident fathers stop seeing their children within a few years. No that’s not the mothers fault but she fears the impact on her children.

Most women earn less than men. Most / many mothers work part time and take on jobs that fit around their partner so earn even less. Their jobs have lower pensions and promotion prospects. Their earning capacity is adversely affected for decades.

Single mums earn less because they have the children living with them more and have to pay for childcare . Many fathers only have their children when they are not at work.

Employers are sympathetic to the needs of single dads - less so mums.

Some mothers have moved area or even country to support their partners career. Often the law will be used to prevent them moving back as it will be inconvenient for him.

If women and men had the same economic resources , social and legal support, women would be able to leave bad relationships sooner.

The OP's children are older. She said herself she has difficulty in accepting that he is not the good guy she thought he was, despite years of evidence to the contrary.

I wasn't making a general statement, I was speaking to the OP directly about what is holding HER back, having read HER words.

Of course leaving a marriage is complicated.
But among many things that can hold you back IMO is your ego refusing to accept that your husband is NOT a good person.

I wasn't making any general statement, I was addressing the OP's own words.

This thread has so many (great) contributions from people ,many describing their own struggles and circumstances .It can be hard to keep track of who's who!

But I think the OP has only only one child ,a three year old .

Yes, OP's child is a 3-year-old. I can't imagine how complicated that makes things.

I've just got off my weekly Skype call with mum and dad (I live in another country) and it's a constant source of sadness that he continues to dominate her with his little egotistical moments of triumph, talking about how HE paid for everything (as though she never worked or made any contribution of her own!). The way he belittles her all the time is agonising, and I feel powerless to do anything about it -- especially now that they are both ancient (90ish) and it is not my place to rock the frail boat that she keeps afloat with her self-effacing generosity.

I just wish I could wave a wand and surround her with the gentleness she embodies. She deserved so much better, and I constantly worry about how I might have helped to change things ... even though this is a pointless anxiety. We all choose our path in life and I must respect hers. I just wish I could put back time and give her some fun, some happiness, some love, some genuine delight. 💗

Oh alcemeg
You couldn't have made her change her mind. Probably her hearing the reality from you would make it worse. It can be heartbreaking I know. But remember you being happy is probably a huge source of joy for her

Apologies, I incorrectly wrote OP when I was referring to @loveyourself2020's struggles.