Does love come back/what do I do

[helplesshopeless]

Nc for this.

Advice needed please, I've created a huge mess and can't see a way out/what is for the best. This may be long.

I am married with a 3yo. DH has always had a nasty temper, I've suggested anger management counselling numerous times but to no avail. The last few years since having my child have been really difficult. He's generally spoken to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical). On a day to day basis we would be civil enough to eachother, but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly. We have had happy family times too and we both dote on our child.

All of this treatment from my DH culminated in my withdrawing from him and ultimately having an affair the last few months, with someone who made me feel loved and cared for. It was mainly an emotional affair but there was a small amount of physical contact (we did not have sex). This is someone that I work with, so although we're wfh at the moment, he is in team zoom meetings etc.

My DH found everything out last week. He is angry but also devastated. I have never seen him so upset and it has shocked me that he cares that much about me. He has completely woken up to how he's been treating me and is committed to having anger management therapy and working on things with me. I obviously am ashamed of what I have done and there is no excuse for my behaviour, but he does recognise that his treatment of me took me to a place where I was open to someone else. I still can't believe I had an affair because it is so against my morals and I fully deserve to be judged for it.

We are working on things and will get relationship counselling. There's a lot of self esteem issues that my husband struggles with, especially since we had our child as he's felt like he's been stuck on the outside looking in, and he thinks this is why he's been treating me how he has. I do understand this and it makes sense, but it doesn't change how he's treated me in the past and how damaging I have found it.

My husband wants me to leave my work so there's no interaction with the other man. I totally understand his point but am reluctant to do this as I'd then feel trapped.

I want to get back to a happy place with my husband. I don't want to feel trapped with him. I don't know if I can find my way back to loving him, whether all of this is coming too late after years of awful treatment. I accept I have behaved in a disgusting way and deserve all of this fall out, and am so worried about the impact on our child and how I'd manage if we separate. I am also concerned about the impact on my husband if things don't work as he has been explaining how it will crush him and he'd never be able to trust anyone again if we don't manage to work through this.

I just don't know if my heart is in this anymore, I want to be able to be happy with him and love him and our family deserves for me to work on this and fully commit to getting back on track, but I have no idea if I'll ever get back to where I need to be.

I am ashamed to admit I still have feelings for the other guy. I could obviously never be with him anyway so that is irrelevant, but it's clouding my judgement. I need to hear from people who have learnt to love their husbands again. Is that a thing? Will we ever get there?

I still can't believe any of this is happening.

Your post at 11.51 today about his past behaviour not being relevant if he really does acknowledge this behaviour, have therapy and make an effort not to slip back - I don’t think it is that simple because you cannot make your mind and body forget. Over the years of this behaviour, you have learned reactions to his behaviour and there is no switch which turns those reactions off or indeed the emotional difficulties with intimacy with him and anxieties you are left with as a result.

Also saying he did not enjoy these behaviours but in the moment, he could not stop. I am willing to bet that if someone he respected, say his boss or a policeman walked through the door, he would have stopped there and then.

@ravenmum

he still loves me despite my affair and is desperate to make me happy and for me to love him again Hand on heart, is this because he thinks you are a great person, or because of his wounded pride and fears that he is not a great person?

If he has really acknowledged his previous behaviour, and has the therapy, and it works, and he makes an effort not to slip back into past behaviour, then his past behaviour should not be relevant.
But as soon as any element of his past behaviour was repeated I'd be out of there. The past behaviour was very, very bad.

It's a shame that the affair didn't cause a clean break. I wouldn't trust this guy for a moment. Even if his manipulation, control, disrespect and other abuse were due entirely to his insecurities, and not to his shit way of dealing with his insecurities despite supposedly being intelligent - even if he was a poor innocent who was forced against his will to act like a total bastard - why would you be obliged to put up with any of it?

@KatySun OP was quoting this post I think and had a bold fail. I think you are right in what you say, regardless

Nrtft
What do you think about your husband.
Not about your feelings of growing to love him again if he changes or putting in stipulations about making the marriage work but actually loving him without any work on himself or yourself.

I ask because a friend once said that if you have loved someone and they were nasty/controlling/manipulative/abusive. You would put up with a lot but it gets to a point where one day a light switch turns off and it can never be turned back on. The live is gone.

I think he knew how nasty he was and wouldn’t go for anger management until he thinks he might lose you.

I don’t think you can come back from this and I don’t think you should have to.
If he had really wanted this marriage to work he would have done something about his anger before it got to this stage.

If you stay you will just be treading on eggshells and will never relax. It will become about what he wants, what he feels and not about what was going on before the affair and his part in it.

@ Bythemillpond
I ask because a friend once said that if you have loved someone and they were nasty/controlling/manipulative/abusive. You would put up with a lot but it gets to a point where one day a light switch turns off and it can never be turned back on. The love is gone.

Totally agree. I loved my husband more then anything in the world and I sacrificed a lot for him and our relationship. Little by little, over two decades of our life together, his mistreatment of me, controlling, manipulating, ignoring of my needs eroded my love to nothing. There is nothing, nothing left in me of the great love I felt for him years ago. It makes me sad that he does not even get it, which only show how disassociated he is from me. How little love and empathy he has for me.

Sadly, misery has become the norm in your life, with the smallest glimpse of a normal, decent, happy relationship during your affair. Just enough of a glimpse to show you that there is a different chosen path to the one you've chosen.

Then the guilt from the affair sends you straight back to the misery, with a few extra layers of it now added, because now you know what feeling good feels like, but you're not allowed to have that... you must punish yourself for even thinking of it!

And the perfect punishment is to force yourself to stay in this marriage, with a man you don't love, a man who can barely contain his nastiness even now when he's trying to behave well enough to get you to stay.

For the sin of snatching something you needed for yourself, that opened your eyes for a moment, that made you feel better, you are now contemplating paying penance for the rest of your days.

That's almost sounding like you actually really do love your husband after all - because his 'happiness' is coming across as being more important to you than your own.

Either that, or you are frightened of him and the fear is paralysing you. Fear. Of him being angry with you, blaming you, somehow proving you are utterly wrong to make a fuss about his past present, and future behaviour, and you are at fault and responsible for ruining everything! He should have exactly what he wants, even if it's to your detriment, because otherwise he's going to make your life hell. More hell than he already has. Scary, if you don't go for his preferred option.

And he wants you to BE HAPPY!

AND furthermore - TO BE HAPPY BECAUSE OF HIM!

It's conditional, that wish for your happiness. And the condition is - happy with him. Only that kind of happiness is what he wishes for you.

He's not interested in your happiness otherwise.

But luckily for him, you are interested in his. And it's top of your list too. Exactly what he wanted, to be top priority, even above his own baby's needs.

You do have a choice. And you'll make that choice when you're good and ready. He'd better be careful though, pushing you to hurry up and choose, because he might actually push you the other way!

Depends how much more of yourself you're willing to sacrifice for him.

I could have written your post op.
25 years of a terrible marriage, propped up solely by me treading on egg shells. Trying to avoid the next bad mood, nasty remark, controlling, manipulative behaviour.

Every year I promised myself that if nothing had changed I would leave, it took me a long, long time to finally press the button.

My mental health was at such a bad state that my survival depended on it.

I simply waited for the next vile outburst and instead of my usual idiotic behaviour of talking him down, bending over backwards to restore peace, I simply told him, very calmly to stop right now, I wasn’t going to put up with his behaviour any more.

He never missed a stroke, threatened to leave me thinking it would bring me back into line. Wrong, I told him to go, told him I didn’t want him here anymore. He walked out of the door and drove away.

The feeling I had was euphoric, I was at so much peace.

Unfortunately, it didn’t last long, 2 hrs later he was back, my heart sank. He begged for another chance, promised to change his ways, he truely loved me and couldn’t live without me. The problem was, I simply didn’t love him any more, I had the briefest taste of freedom (all being it was only a couple of hours) and it was like a drug.

For the next few weeks he was like a new man. Buying me presents, cooking, cleaning, pretending to be so happy. The problem was, it wasn’t real, it annoyed me because I knew it was all an act. The real him was still there but he was playing a part to win me back.

I couldn’t bear to hug him or kiss him, no matter how nice he was being it still came back to the same fact, I didn’t love him. Worse than that I didn’t even like him. A year later we were done.

No regrets, except the 20 odd years of misery that I had put up with. I should have acted sooner, ripped off the plaster and got on with my own life.

Fifteen years later I am happy to report that the sky did not fall in. My life has changed for the better and I no longer put up with any kind of abusive behaviour.

Once I admitted to myself that I did not love him, there was no way of going back. I fell out of love with him for a reason and no amount of pretending could change that. He was still at the end of the day, the man I didn’t love.

@FantasticButtocks
@Cherryberrypie

Wow, thank you both for this.

Cavagirl thanks, that serves me right for dipping into the thread when tired. I have not managed to keep up.

I need to say this thread has been illuminating for me; it is like I need to keep re-learning that it was not my fault and there is nothing to be ashamed of.

Some of you seem to be in happy relationships after your abusive exes. I am still single. It took several years after the separation to actually get the control and manipulation to stop, as he used the legal process to continue. If I thought I imagined things during the marriage, the process of separation assured me I had not. Then of course there has been the pandemic and getting my life back on track, and actually the realisation that this was not the only damaging relationship in my life, so the ripples spread quite far over the pond, if you like.

I am in Scotland so we are not even divorced yet as he refused to agree the child arrangements and the court did not make a final order. But he seems to have moved on now and be leaving me alone, praise the Lord.

My older DD who was affected by it too says she is glad we separated. Both my children are settled and have their own friends and are thriving.

There is a lot which resonates in all your posts.

I had the realisation a few weeks ago that I am not scared of him anymore. I wonder how it got to the point that I was? I grew up in a controlling and volatile household, so I don’t think I had the boundaries in place and of course, it does not happen overnight.

I would not wish this experience on anyone, and yet it is not unusual. I am very glad to be out the other side, but it took a long time and did a lot of damage. Nobody wants this situation to be their life, really, but then actually, looking forward, I see wide open space. That is amazing.

katy
I need to say this thread has been illuminating for me; it is like I need to keep re-learning that it was not my fault and there is nothing to be ashamed of.
I know exactly what you mean! I've been having issues with someone close to me who hadn't really listened to me and kept up a relationship with exH. On Sunday we went for a walk and I let rip with some of the worst of exH behaviour (he was sexually coercive).

It felt very scary, as I still feel deep down I bought the behaviours on myself by not being a good enough wife and I'm ashamed. Talking about it has just retraumatised me

I also grew up in a volatile house and so I think I was primed to accept bad behaviours e.g. shouting, being belittled, being told I don't know my own mind

Anyway I'm finding this thread helpful too. Not least to see this is a pattern and my experience isn't unique

There are so many insightful posts on this thread .And many that have given me a lot to think about with regard to my own situation .

The OP's husband sounds as though he's selfish and unpleasant ,loves himself more than his wife .

It's not knowable whether he will change or not .What is certain is that the OP has not only run out of love for him but feels very uncertain about their future together .Is only held back from getting out of the marriage by what she feels will be the emotional and practical fallout.

FWIW I think it's incredibly rare for love to come back once it's been stamped on and shrivelled and died . I don't think evaluating how good or bad the husband is/was/will be is going to make that love come back.

@peridito YES! Once the love is gone it doesn't come back. I know from my own marriage. Once I'd signed out I'd signed out for good and had effectively pressed a delete button. Especially when there's abuse involved - it's impossible

So many awesome posts, including another fabulous rallying cry from Ms Buttocks!

I need to say this thread has been illuminating for me; it is like I need to keep re-learning that it was not my fault and there is nothing to be ashamed of.
@KatySun, @QuentinBunbury... so interesting that you both feel this, despite your clear and eloquent posts. Yet I realise that in a way I also carry a burden of shame; I never told any of my family, for example, what was going on and was very vague about my reasons for the split. Part of me wanted to protect him from their judgement, as I felt he had given me privileged access to his unique soul and I was its loyal custodian (bit hard to explain!).

Some of you seem to be in happy relationships after your abusive exes.
Yes, but it took me a long time. I don't think you learn boundaries and self-respect overnight after a lifetime of dismissing yourself as unimportant/irrelevant! OP seems to be lucky to have found someone [in the OM] who truly values her. I didn't for a long time, because I wasn't looking for it. I didn't know what to look for.

I think if you have a better idea what to look for, and keep your head screwed on, your chances are pretty good. I was more interested in making up for lost time, cutting loose and having some fun (I had no children; my ex-DH would not permit a child to threaten his central place in the nest).

I guess all these patterns began with my parents. The idea of a male figure as emotionally immature and endlessly demanding, like a baby, and the idea that it is the female role to nurture, nurture, nurture because if she doesn't the whole world will collapse.

Just thinking out loud here, curious to know if any of it resonates.

I guess all these patterns began with my parents. The idea of a male figure as emotionally immature and endlessly demanding, like a baby, and the idea that it is the female role to nurture, nurture, nurture because if she doesn't the whole world will collapse.
I think its wider than that. It's because our society is patriarchal, by men for men. To fit into that, women are actively encouraged to sacrifice their own needs for others. The role of a woman is to care.

However I'm a strident feminist, and still found myself in a pattern where I was giving myself up to meet my husbands needs

Social conditioning is a powerful thing.

Don't know if you've seen this thread but it's interesting
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4248266-Guardian-article-on-the-cult-of-the-perfect-mother

To fit into that, women are actively encouraged to sacrifice their own needs for others.
I was thinking about this recently as I read an article about the leader of the Green Party in Germany - whose other half works reduced hours so as to be able to take care of their children and run the household. A situation that is absolutely the norm for people with important jobs.

This is a picture of her other half. It really is often much more practical for one person to sacrifice their own needs. But we do need to be showing our sons and daughters that that it should not automatically be the woman. The side effects are massive.

On a completely related topic, but by coincidence, I just got this in an email from a friend:

"I think women are trained from birth, in a myriad of subliminal ways, to hold themselves in contempt. It’s a difficult shackle to break free from, and it’s a life’s work unpicking the threads. But as the Buddha taught, we should practice the art of kindness to ourselves as much as anyone else. Being kind is, in theory, simple – we are both kind people, we just need to learn that it applies to us too."

unrelated topic

@peridito
There are so many insightful posts on this thread. And many that have given me a lot to think about with regard to my own situation.

Your life is still a work in progress. Please don't give up on yourself

@Alcemeg

So many awesome posts, including another fabulous rallying cry from Ms Buttocks!

How are you doing, @helplesshopeless?

Hello everyone, sorry for going quiet and thanks @TheThermalStair for checking up on me 

I'm ok, we had a bit of an exchange yesterday as he was feeling frustrated that he is putting so much effort in (and he really is) but doesn't feel like I'm meeting him halfway at all. As he puts it, I'm like some sort of cold zombie or vegetable 😬 which I vehemently disagreed with! But he is right that he's doing so much to try and arrange nice family activities etc. and I'm not really doing anything. Anyway, we had a discussion about how he feels like he's fully acknowledged his past behaviour, and is trying to move on and also move past my affair; but I am still focussing on his behaviour and am blowing it out of proportion. It turned into him saying he was done, and lots of talk from him about how awful I was in my affair and all the behaviours associated with it (and he is right). He's so frustrated that this is all about me and how I feel as opposed to what I've done to him. Luckily he decided to sleep in a different bedroom last night as he was starting to get quite angry about my affair before he relocated.

In his mind he thinks that I've decided he was constantly bullying me and have forgotten that we had good times too. I tried to explain that that was not the case and I was going round in circles trying to work out if I was overreacting, or whether I needed to acknowledge my feelings more, etc. I said that his behaviour had been on a spectrum of unpleasantness, so while there were often good times and days/weeks where things were fine, and the extreme bad/nastiness was not all the time, there were other regular 'micro aggressions' which put me on edge. I gave some examples of the little things which he said were just normal behaviour for any imperfect normal person (they probably are but those behaviours are not usually on the backdrop of wider unpleasantness) and that I should just have had some backbone and stood up to him. Lots of eye rolling from him when I tried to explain why it wasn't that simple.

Anyway, I feel like I have probably not been making enough of an effort and I have apologised for still focussing on his past behaviour when he has accepted his issues and is working on them, we are both trying to look forward (which leaves me in the same place really, waiting to see if I can find love again). Things are much calmer today at least.

I don't really know now where I am in my mind! I had made some progress before this in telling myself that there's no excuse for and no amount of nastiness that is ok, but now I feel like I've been blowing it out of proportion. We did have lots of normal times when things were ok, it's not like he was constantly shouting at me.

I think I can guess what you will all say about this 😁 I have an individual therapy session tonight as part of the couples counselling so I will be explaining all of this.

On a separate note, so many amazing posts from you all over the last day!!! Thank you so much to you all. I'm so pleased that some of you are finding this a helpful thread and as @Alcemeg said, it's interesting that @QuentinBunbury and @KatySun, you both still need to re-center yourselves on the fact that it was not your fault. @QuentinBunbury, I hope you're ok after re-living some of the worse behaviours in the chat with your friend. Did she finally get it?

The way OM loves you, it seems from all you've said, is in a healthy, selfless, "cherishing" way. He elevates you and puts you first. He will even give you up, back to your H, if that's what you want, despite what pain that presumably is causing him. This is what love is.

Yes, you're so right. And it sounds like something from a film, I wouldn't have believed someone could be so selfless if I hadn't seen this in him.

@FantasticButtocks thank you for another amazing post!!! You must feel like you're screaming into the void at the moment 🙈 you're right, I am frightened. Both of the blame ( from him and my own blame that I'm piling on myself) and how difficult he might make things. But also frightened of zombie-ing into life as a single mum and suddenly waking up wondering why on earth I threw it all away.

@Cherryberrypie wow, you sound so strong. Thank you for sharing, and it's so good to hear how much more improved your life is now!

Sorry this has been a bit of a babbling download, trying to catch up on everything you've all said but also quite time pressured!

No idea what happened with the bold there, hopefully you can all decipher it!

Omg he's despicable. That's a horrid update.

He doesn't get to define your reality. You aren't blowing it out of proportion.

Please please stop letting him tell you how you feel. Its horrible

I hope your session goes well tonight. Please don't self censor. The therapist needs to know your perspective to help effectively, not just your husbands version. It's not disloyal to say the stuff you've said here.

Glad you're OK OP.

he feels like he's fully acknowledged his past behaviour, and is trying to move on

he decided to sleep in a different bedroom last night as he was starting to get quite angry about my affair

These don't really match, do they? He can pretend that he's a changed man and his angry abusive behaviour is all in the past, but the reality over the past few weeks is that it's still very much in the present. And now he's resorted to gaslighting you and claiming you're misremembering things.

I think I can guess what you will all say about this
But what do you think, OP? What do you really really think? If you read your posts back and imagine it's someone else, what would you advise?