Does love come back/what do I do

[helplesshopeless]

Nc for this.

Advice needed please, I've created a huge mess and can't see a way out/what is for the best. This may be long.

I am married with a 3yo. DH has always had a nasty temper, I've suggested anger management counselling numerous times but to no avail. The last few years since having my child have been really difficult. He's generally spoken to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical). On a day to day basis we would be civil enough to eachother, but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly. We have had happy family times too and we both dote on our child.

All of this treatment from my DH culminated in my withdrawing from him and ultimately having an affair the last few months, with someone who made me feel loved and cared for. It was mainly an emotional affair but there was a small amount of physical contact (we did not have sex). This is someone that I work with, so although we're wfh at the moment, he is in team zoom meetings etc.

My DH found everything out last week. He is angry but also devastated. I have never seen him so upset and it has shocked me that he cares that much about me. He has completely woken up to how he's been treating me and is committed to having anger management therapy and working on things with me. I obviously am ashamed of what I have done and there is no excuse for my behaviour, but he does recognise that his treatment of me took me to a place where I was open to someone else. I still can't believe I had an affair because it is so against my morals and I fully deserve to be judged for it.

We are working on things and will get relationship counselling. There's a lot of self esteem issues that my husband struggles with, especially since we had our child as he's felt like he's been stuck on the outside looking in, and he thinks this is why he's been treating me how he has. I do understand this and it makes sense, but it doesn't change how he's treated me in the past and how damaging I have found it.

My husband wants me to leave my work so there's no interaction with the other man. I totally understand his point but am reluctant to do this as I'd then feel trapped.

I want to get back to a happy place with my husband. I don't want to feel trapped with him. I don't know if I can find my way back to loving him, whether all of this is coming too late after years of awful treatment. I accept I have behaved in a disgusting way and deserve all of this fall out, and am so worried about the impact on our child and how I'd manage if we separate. I am also concerned about the impact on my husband if things don't work as he has been explaining how it will crush him and he'd never be able to trust anyone again if we don't manage to work through this.

I just don't know if my heart is in this anymore, I want to be able to be happy with him and love him and our family deserves for me to work on this and fully commit to getting back on track, but I have no idea if I'll ever get back to where I need to be.

I am ashamed to admit I still have feelings for the other guy. I could obviously never be with him anyway so that is irrelevant, but it's clouding my judgement. I need to hear from people who have learnt to love their husbands again. Is that a thing? Will we ever get there?

I still can't believe any of this is happening.

Dear OP. We all understand how you feel more then you know. It is so difficult for me to read your post because I can feel it in my gut. How you feel and what you are thinking and how confused you are. I said this before perhaps in this but in some of the other threads too, the problem with situations like these is that the abuse is subtle and that is why you are loosing your mind, you are not sure if you are overreacting, blowing it out of proportions, and with him there telling you things like you are unreasonable and selfish, of course you do not know what to do.

I am too familiar with trying to explain myself, my feelings and not being able to, trying to find the right words and at the same time trying so hard not to hurt his feelings, but in the end, he would always be hurt, no matter what or how I said it, my STBX would be hurt and offended. How dare I say that he is doing something wrong, that something is his fault. He did not really listen to me, he did not even try to understand, he was just waiting for me to finish so that he can tell me that I am wrong to have these feelings.

I realized at one point that I really do not have a choice. I either stay and suck it up or go. There is no fixing it with this person, there is no making it better. He is too selfish and self absorbed to ever put my needs before his and that is what was missing in our relationship, I was never more important to him than he himself.

I know that we are driving you crazy OP and I am sorry for it. I can see that you are not yet ready, but I think that with our help you eventually will be. We are here for you.

@helplesshopeless

Oh OP! That update 

You're so clever and articulate, but he has you doubting yourself and thinking in circles... he's just carrying on his behaviour, justifying, minimising, reframing, misunderstanding, lecturing... all in his immense effort... to get what he wants!

I do hope your therapist is good, and can help you unravel this!!

When he said he was done, it was over (or something like that) how did you feel? Panic? Or relief?

Because the answer to that question will be interesting to look at.

If he said now, - actually it's ok, let's not stay married, it's clearly not working, but we'll do it amicably and wish each other well...it's sad but we'll make it work between us and we can still be good parents even though we are not together, would you be happy? Or would you disagree and want to keep flogging this dead horse trying?

Sorry, op, but you can't force yourself to love someone!

He has killed it.
He's trying to make it look like it's your fault your marriage is on its knees.
He's telling you you're making a big fuss about his abusive behaviour.
He's telling you that you should love him.
Because he's tried hard and actually failed spectacularly for three whole weeks to not behave like a nasty piece of work.

But he still is.

Another thought I had, - maybe for you not loving him isn't a big enough reason to end your marriage. Neither of you seems to think so. (Because you're wondering if you might be able to find your love for him again, and he's kind of insisting that you do.)

Maybe, if you stay longer and try harder, and he gets more and more frustrated and angry that you're not fast enough or loving enough or committed enough, and you get more and more criticised and more and more unhappy, maybe a point will arrive where you actually hate him. And maybe hating him will feel like a good reason to end it. Unless of course you do actually fall in love with him again in which case it's all good.

How dare he you tell you you are over- reacting, you put up with being bullied, belittled & treated like shit for years,
Suddenly you are overreacting.
He is frustrated that you havent got over it. oh really? His actions over years, Why hasn't he got over your pseudo affair then ? If its the past ??
You do know that its too late to patch this up now? Even if you eat humble pie, brush it all under the carpet, you are not going to love this gas lighting bully again.

Honestly OP, I don't think any of us imagines he is / was "constantly shouting at you."

It’s a style of relationship that has come to seem normal to you; and he is right that behind closed doors, some other couples do behave like this. He’s not a complete freak.

But it’s a bit like a parenting style where swaddling the baby tight to stop it fidgeting, yelling at it to stop crying, and an occasional slap is just “the way things are done round here.”

Yes, these things happen and it’s not the end of the world; everyone lives to fight another day.

It just doesn’t have to be that way.

People flourish more in kinder circumstances.

Sorry OP, I keep thinking we pile on you like a ton of bricks and you must feel pulled in too many directions right now. The familiar path will always seem the safest to stick to, but I hope you will continue to wonder. I read about the accusations of you lacking "backbone," and the eye rolling, and I just wish I could wave a wand to give you a less shame-bludgeoned perspective.

You talk about being frightened of zombie-ing into life as a single mum and suddenly waking up wondering why on earth I threw it all away. I really don''t think any of your agonising and tormented self-doubt could in any way be described as "zombie-ing" (perhaps an image from DH, who might like to paint you as moronic when you threaten the status quo?). Quite the opposite.

I'm more worried that you could zombie into the future with him, and "wake up" after another child (or with circumstances similarly altered to trap you further) wondering why on earth you threw away the potential for a happier life.

Ugh, this all sounds really smug and self-satisfied, like I can predict your future by simply transferring the template of my own life onto yours, which is obviously different. It's just that this is how the facts add up.

Mind you, I am 100% sure that if I had to deal with your DH's bluster every day I would already be singing a different tune and saying that the VERY LEAST you can do is match his 3 weeks of effort with a lifetime of devotion! 🤣 It is very, very difficult to face that and have any self-belief, especially if that self-belief goes against the grain.

I just re-read your post and this time, this jumped out at me:

As he puts it, I'm like some sort of cold zombie or vegetable 😬 which I vehemently disagreed with!

Yet you have already internalised the idea of you "zombie-ing" into the future (I was right; the image came from him).

Can you see how being with someone like this completely distorts your own understanding of yourself, let alone the world around you?

Sorry to re-post this image.

He's fed up of trying to be a decent human being. Already.

I am sorry I only have time to post quickly. What was an eye-opener for me some time after I left was learning about DARVO. I am not sure if it has been mentioned on this thread. It stands for Deny Attack Reverse Victim and Offender.

So while he is not denying his past behaviour, he is minimising its effect - no, actually, he is denying his present behaviour because on one hand he is putting forward the Mr Nice Guy Makes An Effort persona and on the other, well, the anger is still there, he is verbally abusing you and punishing you for not reconciling to his timetable. So yes, past behaviour is denied and there is a smoke screen around present behaviour.

Attack - goes without saying. You are under attack, just sometimes it is more overt than others. You do not have space to come to your own decisions without being subject to greater or lesser manipulation and abuse.

Reverse Victim and Offender - he is making himself into the victim by blaming you on many levels, to which he is now adding new layers to do with your behaviour when you had the affair, if I read it correctly.

With my ex, I began to feel that whatever I said, he would send it back in some way or another ten times over.

I am sorry, OP. I really am, and I hope your individual therapy brings some clarity. I hope you can speak candidly.

Also, I want to say thank you to the posters who replied to my last message Quentin I had similar experiences to what you said and it takes a lot of courage to speak about

Go well

@KatySun, @Cavagirl mentioned DARVO a few pages back and gave a very astute breakdown of how it's being used here.

That's definitely what's going on.

I wish I'd heard of it years ago! -- but that doesn't always make it any easier to deal with when you're living through it. It's like trying to reverse the polarity of a very powerful magnetic field.

katy thank you. This thread is helping x

OP,

Whether or not you find the courage to walk away from this horror of a man this time or not, there is NO way you have a long term relationship with him.

You may limp on, have another child, to complicate things further, but there is NO way that you have a happy life ahead of you.

He has shown you clearly who he is.
This is who he is.
He doesn't want to change, he just doesn't want his emotional punching bag to leave.

That's all you are.

A punching bag for a nasty little man.

God help any child being reared in such a toxic, stressful home.

The scars last a lifetime.

Thank you so much everyone I know you are all right.

The therapy session last night was quite good, she seemed to get it - made a big point of asking straight away if I felt safe and assured me I was not overreacting. She has a single session with my husband next week and then we go back into joint the following week.

I only have a moment now to post and we're all going away for a long weekend today so I'll likely not get much chance (or internet) to respond properly until next week, but I want you to know I've read each and every post and really appreciate you all

How did you feel when the therapist told you you weren't overreacting?

Hope you're staying with some nice people this weekend OP and not just same shit, different place. And I hope your daughter has fun

Dear Op,

Catching up on this thread after a busy week at work.

Just wanted to say that l have been where you are right now. I was told that l was over- reacting, that l ‘misinterpreted’ his words, that we had a wonderful marriage, he was a good husband. I turned myself into an emotional pretzel trying to decide if our issues were ‘normal’ and as such l should just put up with them.

Please believe me that there is life after all this crazy making. If you allow yourself a little bit of space and time AWAY from the distorted mirror he is holding up to you, you will start to see more clearly.

It took me 7 months to get out though and even now l am still having revelations and re-seeing things from a fresh perspective having swallowed his line almost with question on some matters.

Yesterday l recalled a lie he told me, then was really nasty to me using this lie as a way to diminish me and l just took it.

Even though l knew he was condemning me on a lie. Crazy.

@Whatdirection

Dear Op,

Catching up on this thread after a busy week at work.

Just wanted to say that l have been where you are right now. I was told that l was over- reacting, that l ‘misinterpreted’ his words, that we had a wonderful marriage, he was a good husband. I turned myself into an emotional pretzel trying to decide if our issues were ‘normal’ and as such l should just put up with them.

Please believe me that there is life after all this crazy making. If you allow yourself a little bit of space and time AWAY from the distorted mirror he is holding up to you, you will start to see more clearly.

It took me 7 months to get out though and even now l am still having revelations and re-seeing things from a fresh perspective having swallowed his line almost with question on some matters.

Yesterday l recalled a lie he told me, then was really nasty to me using this lie as a way to diminish me and l just took it.

Even though l knew he was condemning me on a lie. Crazy.

Great post.

OP, you are in a fog of his bullshit.

Like above, time away from him would make this SO clear to you.

He is a lying, nasty bully.

What you have shared with him is no marriage.

Just one person using another as an emotional punching bag.
That's what you are sharing with him.

No more.

I think I can guess what you will all say about this
Then I won't say it. But I'm thinking it. Not because I'm a bitter harpy or a strident feminist, but because I'm looking at this from the outside, happening to another person and not constantly thinking "Well, it's just me that this is happening to, so it doesn't matter too much".

I wouldn't have believed someone could be so selfless if I hadn't seen this in him. (the OM)
You didn't recognise it from yourself, swallowing your own wishes and putting your husband first all these years, even when he's been horrible to you?

Wishing you a stress-free weekend away, @helplesshopeless.

I was thinking, for me, one aspect of what made things so difficult to grasp was not just that ex-DH could be very pleasant company for extended periods of time.

It was also my feeling that it wasn't 100% his fault that we had this unwritten (but nevertheless tightly binding) contract that our relationship was all about me looking after him, and my feelings/needs were irrelevant (or, at the most, irritating distractions from the real task at hand).

I helped to create that dynamic, through my own expectations and the way we fitted in with each other when we first started out on married life. I was imitating what I'd seen my mum do, for example. And had been brought up to consider male scorn and contempt to be perfectly natural/acceptable.

In a way, though, the fact that it wasn't "all his fault" made things worse because it made everything even more impossible to change. To do things differently would have required not just effort on his part. I'd also have had to reprogram myself completely, in ways that I'd never be able to do while still in a relationship that reinforced what came naturally to us both.

It's taken me years to get the hang of a different approach, and I was only able to start changing myself by (eventually, after much trial and error!) being with someone who never takes advantage of my kindness, always treats me with respect and love, anticipates my needs, and notices/cares about my feelings.

Now that this is "my new normal," I recognise how much the relationship with DH#1 was like a daily dose of psychoactive poison.

I kept waiting for the crunch to come, the moment that would definitely prove beyond all doubt that things had reached rock bottom. But in truth, they already had, so many times, and I'd just swept it all under the carpet, so it seemed illogical to "over-react" to less "serious" "offences" further down the track.

A toxic dynamic is just that; it doesn't really matter whose fault it is. But if you stay, it will become painfully apparent at times when you most need support.

being with someone who never takes advantage of my kindness, always treats me with respect and love, anticipates my needs, and notices/cares about my feelings
Do you see this as normal, Alcemeg?

@ravenmum

being with someone who never takes advantage of my kindness, always treats me with respect and love, anticipates my needs, and notices/cares about my feelings Do you see this as normal, Alcemeg?

I do now, yes. (Do you think it sounds odd?) Only because it's what I have with DH#2 and after nearly a decade together, it has become perfectly normal.

I mean, it's no more dramatic than what a lot of women provide for their husbands. We just seem to expect that to be a one-way process.

Expectations are a funny thing: when they are low, we settle for all sorts of shit that confirms our low expectations. After much struggle I have ended up in a good place, and wish I could have magically transferred an understanding that this is possible onto my younger self, so that I wouldn't have put up with all the crap that I did, for so long. Of course, Life doesn't work like that 😉

I hope I don't sound like I'm bragging here 😯
I just think it is worth knowing, that good men do exist.

Alcemeg so much wisdom in what you post .

I've hesitated to raise this because I don't want to provide a whole new hair shirt for the OP to wear but ....

how does one square making ones own life happier if in doing so you are making others unhappy ?

I do now, yes. (Do you think it sounds odd?)
No, but it is what I have now too, and it still feels as if he is a rare specimen or something! I'm almost unwilling to get used to it - the other day he went out of his way to do something for me and I started to wonder if I was taking advantage of his good nature.
We like to celebrate and point out acts of kindness as if they were something special - to show gratitude, of course - but it should be like showing gratitude for the sun rising and the rain falling. Kindness should be the basic standard. Instead we have people wondering quite how horrible someone can be to them before it is "not normal" and thus OK to leave.

@ravenmum, I'm so glad you've found it too. 💗 The funny thing is, it's like climbing onto a new level where you look around you and see loads of people enjoying their happy lives. I just wonder how I never noticed before, what was possible. I guess I just assumed it wasn't my fate!

@peridito:
how does one square making ones own life happier if in doing so you are making others unhappy?
Was that a question for me?
It's a bit of a nightmare to answer 😃 but I'll have a go...

I think perhaps the key things I've learned over the years of trial and error are:
The only happiness we are responsible for is our own.
Life would be a lot easier/better all round if everyone was properly "selfish" (in the true sense of looking out for their own interests and not being sabotaged by trying to double-guess everyone else's).
People survive, and even thrive, after what we consider fatal blows.
Even if they don't, it may be their best chance at evolving, and it is not for us to decide what's "best" for them.
We can only decide what's best for us.

I suspect that the actual purpose of Life is to find out who we are and what we want, and actualise it. Or, as Dolly Parton put it, "Find out who you are and do it on purpose."

Going into why that's so important would be a bit too woo-woo for this thread 😁 but basically, imagine us each as a cell in the body. Keeping our own cell as healthy as possible is our only way of contributing to the overall health of the entire organism... or something along those lines 😉 ... and if we have any kind of moral duty at all, I think it's not to put ourselves in service to others, but to properly discover and express our own potential.

In many ways, it's possible that we create these pathways of duty in our lives in order to neglect and overlook the one that matters most, because it is the most difficult: fulfilling the promise of our own unique life.

This might all sound nuts, especially as we're conditioned to think in terms of serving the happiness of everyone else but us.

Just consider how truly happy we make other people, with all our efforts to "make" them "happy." It all tends to backfire, no? And not just on us.

That's my experience, anyway, for what it's worth

@helplesshopeless I think that love will never come back because you have seen who your husband really is - his character.

You know that he’s the kind of person who chose to treat you really badly, at a time when you were vulnerable and couldn’t leave. He did this even though you were a good wife and mother. He chose to do this because it made him feel in control and gave him power over you.

Nothing will ever take this knowledge and insight away from you.

Meanwhile he is saying “ Don’t look at the person I am deep inside. Just look at my behaviour. Your feeling are wrong and unreasonable. “

But you know deep down what kind of person he is and that he will never change . He can put on a good show for a few weeks but you know and I know that it’s an act.

He has managed to persuade you that you HE gets to decide what you judge him on and not you. Yet again he’s trying to control you.

alcemeg a lot of what you've written rings true to me too, thank you

perdito I think that if one person is unhappy in a family, that also impacts everyone else around them so none of them are truly happy.
These toxic dynamics might damage one person more, but they are affecting everyone negatively and its not healthy. It's also setting children up to model those behaviours and resulting unhappiness in their relationships - both the tolerating bad behaviour and also the using bad behaviours to get your way.
Saying one person is causing unhappiness because they want to be happy is very simplistic and also implies that being happy is somehow selfish.

Also, in my case, it was more than unhappiness. I was losing myself and becoming more and more depressed. Is it less selfish to frame it as self preservation? Or are wives/mothers so unimportant that it's OK for them to damage their own health to support the illusion of the "happy family" for others?