Does love come back/what do I do

[helplesshopeless]

Nc for this.

Advice needed please, I've created a huge mess and can't see a way out/what is for the best. This may be long.

I am married with a 3yo. DH has always had a nasty temper, I've suggested anger management counselling numerous times but to no avail. The last few years since having my child have been really difficult. He's generally spoken to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical). On a day to day basis we would be civil enough to eachother, but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly. We have had happy family times too and we both dote on our child.

All of this treatment from my DH culminated in my withdrawing from him and ultimately having an affair the last few months, with someone who made me feel loved and cared for. It was mainly an emotional affair but there was a small amount of physical contact (we did not have sex). This is someone that I work with, so although we're wfh at the moment, he is in team zoom meetings etc.

My DH found everything out last week. He is angry but also devastated. I have never seen him so upset and it has shocked me that he cares that much about me. He has completely woken up to how he's been treating me and is committed to having anger management therapy and working on things with me. I obviously am ashamed of what I have done and there is no excuse for my behaviour, but he does recognise that his treatment of me took me to a place where I was open to someone else. I still can't believe I had an affair because it is so against my morals and I fully deserve to be judged for it.

We are working on things and will get relationship counselling. There's a lot of self esteem issues that my husband struggles with, especially since we had our child as he's felt like he's been stuck on the outside looking in, and he thinks this is why he's been treating me how he has. I do understand this and it makes sense, but it doesn't change how he's treated me in the past and how damaging I have found it.

My husband wants me to leave my work so there's no interaction with the other man. I totally understand his point but am reluctant to do this as I'd then feel trapped.

I want to get back to a happy place with my husband. I don't want to feel trapped with him. I don't know if I can find my way back to loving him, whether all of this is coming too late after years of awful treatment. I accept I have behaved in a disgusting way and deserve all of this fall out, and am so worried about the impact on our child and how I'd manage if we separate. I am also concerned about the impact on my husband if things don't work as he has been explaining how it will crush him and he'd never be able to trust anyone again if we don't manage to work through this.

I just don't know if my heart is in this anymore, I want to be able to be happy with him and love him and our family deserves for me to work on this and fully commit to getting back on track, but I have no idea if I'll ever get back to where I need to be.

I am ashamed to admit I still have feelings for the other guy. I could obviously never be with him anyway so that is irrelevant, but it's clouding my judgement. I need to hear from people who have learnt to love their husbands again. Is that a thing? Will we ever get there?

I still can't believe any of this is happening.

Morning @helplesshopeless,

Just caught up on your updates over the last few days. Just wanted to add some reflections.

You are putting a lot of weight of how much he has changed and being ‘the good man’ you always wanted. I’m so sorry but l think his behaviour has become more manipulative and controlling in a covert manner which is so much harder to recognise.

From the top of my head, the things you have mentioned that fall into this type of abuse are;

Listening into your therapy and feeling hurt

Having a temper outburst after a few drinks about the OM

Calling you ‘pathetic’

Putting you under pressure with a timeline

Showing ‘signs’ he is about to have an outburst but reeling it in but you are still on eggshells and he still covertly manipulates the situation so you feel he has improved

Telling you he has changed but his actions don’t match up

Telling you to ignore his grumps - so the responsibility is now on you

This is all covert, under the radar, very difficult to spot. No doubt he is trying but his mask keeps slipping and in small subtle ways, he will still try to control you. You are confused because he has improved the overt abuse and is working on it.

Being manipulative is not always a conscious choice. It can stem from a place of anxiety and fear of abandonment. The problem is, if you are on the receiving end of it, it can feel very very confusing.

Keep reading, keep having therapy, keep posting on here. You are going through a process. It takes time to see things clearly when you have had years of putting his needs first. You will get there.

@KatySun and @Whatdirection, you have nailed it there.

@helplesshopeless, I'd reiterate that your husband is likely to be hyperanxious about losing you, which on the one hand is helping him to be careful at the moment but on the other hand is likely to lead back to his usual coping mechanism (putting you back in your box) as soon as he feels less threatened by the situation.

Leopards don't change their spots, or at least not without intense work over a long time. In his case, it would have to start with all the recognitions that @KatySun has listed.

Your affair didn't happen in a vacuum. It didn't happen because you don't care about him or your family. You're not pathetic for considering it. In fact, it makes absolutely perfect sense for you to be reviewing the reasons the affair was such an irresistible option. You should both be doing that.

He is pathetic if he thinks you should accept all the blame and get quietly back into your box and close the lid ready for him to seal around it with extra tape (e.g. you leaving your job, having another baby).

I would have faith in his earnest desire to forge a bright new future with you if he showed any sign of curiosity about how you got to this situation in the first place.

I can't really expect him to suddenly get over my affair though can I? He's bound to have upsets and anxieties over that, surely? This is why I wish I didn't have this complication muddying the waters so much.

This is what I mean about you having become your own jailer. Your own shame about what happened gives him the moral high ground, and that is not where he belongs.

What he should be doing now is not drumming his fingers, rolling his eyes and asking when normal service will resume.

He should be asking why a woman like you, who loved him and put her marriage and family first, was tempted by an alternative life.

He should listen to your feelings, understand them, and give them the same weight as his own.

Until he does this, I'm afraid the dominant narrative doesn't seem to have changed much.

How dare you long to be with someone who treats you with kindness and respect. How dare you dream of a life where you don't have to walk on eggshells. How dare you imagine that there is a place in this world where you exist as a human being in your own right, and not just in relation to him.

Your feelings are not pathetic.

You deserve to be happy.

He has chosen to behave like this for years. It is who he is. He shouldn't need shocking into not being an abusive arsehole.

If you give up your job you will be somewhat trapped, he can go back to abusing you, and now he has a bonus, he can guilt trip you into accepting even more abuse!

Or you could leave, and have a happy life.

He should be asking why a woman like you, who loved him and put her marriage and family first, was tempted by an alternative life.
Thank you so much for that whole post alcemeg.
I wish my exH had read this bit.

@QuentinBunbury

He should be asking why a woman like you, who loved him and put her marriage and family first, was tempted by an alternative life. Thank you so much for that whole post alcemeg. I wish my exH had read this bit.

@QuentinBunbury! 😊

I wish I had been able to see it so clearly myself, at the time!

Instead, I went round in dazed circles for months, finally going through with the split just because I was exhausted with trying to make sense of the situation and realised that just wishing I could be happy wasn't making any difference.

It took me several years to understand the reasons I felt unhappy in that marriage. In fact, some of it I have only begun to understand quite recently.

You have to experience a different life to learn and grow enough to recognise the issues. When you're buried up to your neck in them, you have about as much autonomy as a house plant.

It is right there in that sentence indeed Quentin and alcemeg

In my case, my ex blamed my mental health and anxiety for the fact that I left*, he did not seem able to take on board that there was anything he could have done differently, and even when he did, it was qualified with, but you should have told me. We did have a short period where we tried to get back together and there were four things which made that impossible

1. That it was in the end of the day always my fault, somehow
2. There was one morning where we were having a regular discussion about my DD (his stepDD) and he made an unwarranted negative comment, I pulled him up on it, and it caused an argument, like his mask slipped because he was fairly aggressive. I felt like the ground moved under my feet from solid to WTF.
3. I knew if I stayed then I was doing it conscious of the fact there was a mask there, whereas when we met, of course I was not aware.
4. Physical intimacy was a block for me for reasons I won’t go into, I knew that I would not get past it.

(I think I was really the only person who believed for a time that the issues were because of my mental health and anxiety, rather than the other way around).

It is all very exhausting, to be true.

3. I knew if I stayed then I was doing it conscious of the fact there was a mask there, whereas when we met, of course I was not aware.
Yes. The mask thing applies to me too. The actual thing that I believe caused the end of my marriage was when I asked my DH about something I was worried about and he flat out lied "I would never do that, I love you, you're paranoid etc etc" and of course he had done and continued after as well.
Knowing he could just lie so convincingly on the spot, and turn it onto me so easily, was when I knew he had "a mask". And things were never the same again

Oh gosh it's such a shame we can't have a camping weekend with a lovely fire we can all sit around tonight sharing our tales.

My ex-DH used to say "But why can't you just TELL me what to do, and I'll do it?"

(of course that excluded anything practical, like cooking)

Of course I had no idea. I had no idea what I wanted him to do differently, because I'd never experienced a kind and loving relationship. I just vaguely knew something important was missing.

This lack of guidance from me was yet more proof that I was talking nonsense and clearly had no idea what I wanted from life, etc.

"he's struggling still to deal with the affair, and needs my understanding."
ho hum, what about you struggling about being treated like shit for YEARS, He needs to understand You, that the affair was his fault.
Had he not treated you like shit, you wouldn't have been tempted elsewhere, because you would have been happy.
Putting you under pressure to get over it... well perhaps the answer is, you may get over it in X years, the number of years he treated you like a sub human... Lets see if he can wait that long

Thank you all once again for the amazingly supportive messages!!

At the moment, the entire narrative of your marriage is skewed towards him as the good guy who has been wronged (in fact, doubly so because not only did you have an affair, you did not tell him that his anger and tempers were driving you out of the marriage -?!)

Yes, he does say that he totally accepts how bad his behaviour was and how it got me to a place where I was vulnerable to an affair. But still maintains, as I know I've said a few times, he had no idea and I should have told him how bad it was so he could work on it (as he is now). He says instead of working on the marriage I chose to dismiss him and look elsewhere (he's just been saying this to me again now).

Being manipulative is not always a conscious choice. It can stem from a place of anxiety and fear of abandonment. The problem is, if you are on the receiving end of it, it can feel very very confusing.

I think that is what I struggle with. I don't at all think he consciously plans to behave how he does to hurt or manipulate me. He lashes out when he is stressed or hurt.

alcemeg thank you so much for another thoughtful and supportive message!

What he should be doing now is not drumming his fingers, rolling his eyes and asking when normal service will resume.

He should be asking why a woman like you, who loved him and put her marriage and family first, was tempted by an alternative life.

He should listen to your feelings, understand them, and give them the same weight as his own.

Until he does this, I'm afraid the dominant narrative doesn't seem to have changed much.

This is very pertinent today. We've been for lunch and he's become down about me not opening up to him again, unfortunately this has manifested in lots of unpleasantness from him. He's basically given me an ultimatum and said he needs to know whether I want to make it work with him or whether we should walk away. He's also said I'm cold and evil for not feeling anything for him, especially after we've had almost 3 weeks of relative calm (!). Led to lots of threats about divorce and custody battles (which apparently is where my behaviour is leading us to if I don't open my heart to him).

what about you struggling about being treated like shit for YEARS, He needs to understand You, that the affair was his fault.
Had he not treated you like shit, you wouldn't have been tempted elsewhere, because you would have been happy.

I just said something along these lines and he said I'm refusing to accept responsibility for my actions and admit that I was in the wrong with my affair. I know my actions were wrong but it doesn't mean there's not reasons behind my behaviour! But I also don't want to sound like I'm trying to minimise what I did 😬

Led to lots of threats about divorce and custody battles (which apparently is where my behaviour is leading us to if I don't open my heart to him).

Goodness. "Love me or else". Quite the proposition. Reel in your independent thinking OP or watch how I will punish you.

I won't pretend to have much to add to the beautifully eloquent posts by PP. But I still don't understand what he is wanting you to "confirm". If you say you "want to make it work with him" (which frankly is what you are doing) what does he get from that? What precisely changes for him if you "confirm" this?

A cynic, from the sidelines, might suggest once you "confirm" this, he'll expect a) regular sex b) you to quit your job c) baby #2 d) he doesn't have to bother so much with the self-help books anymore and you put up with the anger as your penance for looking elsewhere, you're also not allowed to raise this as an issue e) complete contrition over your affair and complete freedom for him to beat you over the head with it at will.

If that is wrong, what exactly does he mean then by "confirming" you want to continue with the marriage and what terms and conditions does he attach to such a confirmation? Because I'm still at a loss.

@Alcemeg

Oh gosh it's such a shame we can't have a camping weekend with a lovely fire we can all sit around tonight sharing our tales.

My ex-DH used to say "But why can't you just TELL me what to do, and I'll do it?"

(of course that excluded anything practical, like cooking)

Of course I had no idea. I had no idea what I wanted him to do differently, because I'd never experienced a kind and loving relationship. I just vaguely knew something important was missing.

This lack of guidance from me was yet more proof that I was talking nonsense and clearly had no idea what I wanted from life, etc.

OMG @Alcemeg Yes, yes, yes. I wish we could go camping together, sit around the fire and share. I would so love this too. So much you are saying resonates with me and my experiences, so much so that this post of yours made me exclaim out loud. Twice. Yes, Yes!!!

My DH also told me many times to "tell him what to do, or what he did wrong", including chores around the house. But you are right, I too did not really know what it was that he was doing wrong. Most of the time I would not even be able to explain it to myself let alone him who was always so intimidating to me. I just knew how it made me feel.

Oh OP, please see him for what he is:
A manipulative abusive shit, who has used your EA to terrorise you and brow beat you into submission.

Even though HIS behaviour to you has been abusive for years.

He hasn't changed a jot has he? He wants you to say, "OK, I will not leave, I will shut the fuck up, & be good. You can relax".
But as its not happening fast enough, he has to wait, he has to prove he has changed & clearly not doing a very good job about it.
He is threatening you with a messy divorce, well that's original, for an abusive bastard

@Cavagirl

What he wants is complete and absolute surrender, that is what he wants. For guys like this it is not enough that you do what they want, but you also have to look like you are enjoying it. This is what is twisted here, OPs husband wants her to be submissive, to do what he wants and to appear really happy doing it. I know this from my own experience. My STBX (oh this feels so good to write instead of DH), would make me accept something I did not really want but get angry if I am showing dissatisfaction. I would have to do what he wants (and I do not want) and be happy about it. It is total surrender of your free will. Idk I cannot even put it in words.

Whichever poster said he wants to tape you up tighter in the box was right.

You are there in the marital home. You are attending marriage guidance counselling where I am sure you did ‘open up your heart’ (maybe you did not open it in the right way and say what he wanted to hear). You are already taking on more than your fair share of blame for things. And yet that is not enough for him, so first of all he suggests you are still in contact with OM and calls you pathetic, now he is calling you cold and evil for presumably not jumping his bones or letting him have his way physically, and then he is back to threatening divorce and custody battles.

You surely don’t believe that he has changed. His covert manipulation is not working, so now it is verbal abuse and threats.

Forget everything else, do you really want to spend the rest of your life with someone who called you ‘evil’? Please please don’t believe that has a word of truth in it.

Did you see a lawyer in the end? You mentioned it further up the thread.

He has calmed down now and apologised unreservedly for what he's said.

I think the problem is, he lashes out when he is hurt/stressed/upset. That's always been his issue. He is working on this with his therapist and is using the coping strategies he's been given, which has helped him a lot, but now and then it bubbles over again still.

He's said he feels an unbelievable amount of strain and frustration over this situation, and he doesn't know if he's going to be able to cope with the uncertainty much longer. When he says this he is being calm and honest about where he is at, and it's the context of a conversation about where to go from here, as opposed to trying to threaten me.

He's also apologised for mentioning custody battles - he's said this is something else he's incredibly stressed over as he wants to be full time dad (and not a 'fun time dad' at the weekend as he puts it).

I get all that, and I know him and how he operates/why he lashes out. I know he's working on reducing this behaviour.

I think where I've got to now, with all of your help, is to see that part of the reason he's struggling with this situation is because he is used to controlling our narrative and dynamic between us (even if only subconsciously). And he doesn't have that anymore which is extra hard for him. I'm also feeling more comfortable that I don't owe him anything in respect of helping him through his moods and tempers, and see that his feelings aren't an excuse for what he says to me.

Not sure if that sounds like progress from the outside but it feels like it to me!

katysun yes I did speak to someone, and I'm relatively clear on what things might look like - just gets stressful when he throws out threats about custody battles for 50/50 and talks about forcing me to work full time and put her in nursery those extra days (so it doesn't get in the way of him having her). Realistically I know that wouldn't happen though so I think I'm ok on that front.

He's also said I'm cold and evil for not feeling anything for him

...as though we are in control of our feelings!!!!! as though you wouldn't give your entire worldly possessions, at the moment, in exchange for the relief of "love coming back" and being able to give him what he wants, instead of being embroiled in this agonising conflict.

As though your feelings have absolutely nothing to do with the way he treated you, not just once or twice, but over YEARS.

You don't just decide not to love someone. You can't just decide to love them again. Love requires trust, respect, and deep understanding. Caring, in a marriage, must be a two-way process. It's not like a nanny looking after a child.

Re being called cold and evil, I got that, too. He often accused me of coldness because, for example, I slept in the spare room rather than "comfort" him in bed through the misery of our breakup 🤨

It makes my heart ache to think of you being accused of coldness and evil. You are so clearly neither. That alone is deeply abusive in the most obvious sense of the word! I know these words don't just bounce off, however unreasonable they are.

I think one of the most distressing things about a relationship like this is that it's like being surrounded by distorting mirrors. The "you" reflected back is hideously misshapen, yet you can't dismiss it as unreal since that is the feedback you're getting from the most important person in your life.

I ended up with a very distorted view of myself. I used to worry that if I left him I'd be a total monster, because it was only him keeping me in check. Actually, I turned out to be a much nicer person that I ever imagined. To my amazement, I even turned out to be good-natured! I used to think I had a terrible temper on me. Now I realise he just drove me crazy.

Blathering on again in case any of this rings bells, on the understanding that you can ignore any bits that are irrelevant!

I have a feeling that the accusations of coldness are because he knows you cannot bear to be considered cold and evil (naturally, since they are quite the opposite of who you are). So you will redouble your efforts to show warmth etc. It's a crude tactic, but it does work.

@loveyourself2020 hurraaaah for virtual campfires 🥰
Like you, I'm not even in the UK. But I like that mental image of our camping trip! 💗

He's basically given me an ultimatum and said he needs to know whether I want to make it work with him or whether we should walk away. He's also said I'm cold and evil for not feeling anything for him, especially after we've had almost 3 weeks of relative calm
Please be careful now as he's showing his true colours. See a solicitor and start getting your ducks in a row, especially financially.

Re being called cold and evil, I got that, too. He often accused me of coldness because, for example, I slept in the spare room rather than "comfort" him in bed through the misery of our breakup 🤨

I can imagine getting similar accusations! And then when I do try to be kind/give a hug or whatever, I get told I don't mean it so not to bother.

It makes my heart ache to think of you being accused of coldness and evil. You are so clearly neither. That alone is deeply abusive in the most obvious sense of the word! I know these words don't just bounce off, however unreasonable they are.

You are so kind it's strange though, I'm used to being called much worse (I'm no stranger to the occasional c word for example), so to a certain extent I do just ignore it. I guess that's all linked to the whole issue of me shutting down on him. The one thing that upsets me is when he uses our daughter - he accused me earlier of trying to drive a wedge between him and our daughter and taking her away from him. He must know I would never ever do that, I absolutely want him 100% in her life, as is his right, if we do split. So that was hurtful, to imagine he thinks I'd stoop so low.

Actually, I turned out to be a much nicer person that I ever imagined. To my amazement, I even turned out to be good-natured!

I can't imagine you being anything but!! I'm totally in for a virtual campfire session 😆

Please be careful now as he's showing his true colours. See a solicitor and start getting your ducks in a row, especially financially.

I think financially it's ok. We'd split all assets 50:50 which is fine, he's saying he won't pay any maintenance even if she's with me for a greater proportion of time, but that's fine too I think (and frankly not worth the battle if it got to that).

I'm used to being called much worse (I'm no stranger to the occasional c word for example), so to a certain extent I do just ignore it. I guess that's all linked to the whole issue of me shutting down on him.

Errrrmmmm... yes, I expect it is 😮

he accused me earlier of trying to drive a wedge between him and our daughter and taking her away from him

So hard to see yourself clearly when stuck in this hall of mirrors.

It's all deeply unkind and disrespectful to you.

Regarding him lashing out when he is stressed or upset, you say that is his issue. Well, yes, but it is your issue too as you have borne the brunt of it for years. In fact if you go back and read your post at 19.03 it is all about him and you explaining his behaviour, so really it has become your issue too, as you are the verbal punchbag and you are trying to reconcile this with the man who says he has so much to give to your future.

Regarding him apologising, yes, of course he has, otherwise you might actually take him up on that divorce he was mentioning.

Regarding custody battles, it seems he has both threatened a battle for 50/50 (that was what I meant by threatening) and when that did not have the desired effect, he is now going for the emotionally manipulative route of suggesting he is scared you won’t let him be part of your Dd’s life (which again puts you on the back foot because you have to defend yourself from something you have not done yet, another imagined transgression, this time one by your future self). Neither of you can predict how residence and contact will work out as your DD grows up because it is about her needs and wishes, not what you or he want. But he is already painting you as the mother who is going to deny contact (well, if he loses his temper with DD when she is a teenager and calls her the c word, you might have to if she decides she doesn’t want to go, for example, so never say never). So the most you can ever say is that contact and residence should always be in DD’s best interests, and ideally you (you plural, your H and you) would reach a joint decision about what that was until she is old enough to decide herself.

And for all he is trying to take the moral high ground by suggesting you would obstruct contact or whatever he said, he himself has already said he won’t pay maintenance, which is pretty low.

You are right that he does not like the dynamic changing, and yes, it is progress to recognise this. But I am not sure whether he thinks the dynamic actually is changing or whether he is still rattling through his various strategies to get the response he wants. Which is why it is important to be really clear in your own head about what you want.

He is still a nasty bullying piece of shit.
You keep saying he's better, he's trying, he promises this or that. But in the same day, he has said you are cold & evil, oathetic, he will make your life misery in divorce, he will fight for Dd, he wont pay for his dc( as a punishment) and accuses you of annexing him from Dd.

Not trying that hard is he ?

I think it might help you both to know what a separation might really look like. So can you discuss it so he's no longer in a blind panic and you are no longer just staying to assuage your guilt.

Then you'd both feel a lot calmer you know.