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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Does love come back/what do I do

999 replies

helplesshopeless · 06/04/2021 10:03

Nc for this.

Advice needed please, I've created a huge mess and can't see a way out/what is for the best. This may be long.

I am married with a 3yo. DH has always had a nasty temper, I've suggested anger management counselling numerous times but to no avail. The last few years since having my child have been really difficult. He's generally spoken to me with contempt and disdain a lot of the time, with occasional temper flashes, arguments are always toxic, things could get very nasty (never physical). On a day to day basis we would be civil enough to eachother, but nasty looks and snappiness from him were definitely daily as well, with bigger flare ups fairly regularly. We have had happy family times too and we both dote on our child.

All of this treatment from my DH culminated in my withdrawing from him and ultimately having an affair the last few months, with someone who made me feel loved and cared for. It was mainly an emotional affair but there was a small amount of physical contact (we did not have sex). This is someone that I work with, so although we're wfh at the moment, he is in team zoom meetings etc.

My DH found everything out last week. He is angry but also devastated. I have never seen him so upset and it has shocked me that he cares that much about me. He has completely woken up to how he's been treating me and is committed to having anger management therapy and working on things with me. I obviously am ashamed of what I have done and there is no excuse for my behaviour, but he does recognise that his treatment of me took me to a place where I was open to someone else. I still can't believe I had an affair because it is so against my morals and I fully deserve to be judged for it.

We are working on things and will get relationship counselling. There's a lot of self esteem issues that my husband struggles with, especially since we had our child as he's felt like he's been stuck on the outside looking in, and he thinks this is why he's been treating me how he has. I do understand this and it makes sense, but it doesn't change how he's treated me in the past and how damaging I have found it.

My husband wants me to leave my work so there's no interaction with the other man. I totally understand his point but am reluctant to do this as I'd then feel trapped.

I want to get back to a happy place with my husband. I don't want to feel trapped with him. I don't know if I can find my way back to loving him, whether all of this is coming too late after years of awful treatment. I accept I have behaved in a disgusting way and deserve all of this fall out, and am so worried about the impact on our child and how I'd manage if we separate. I am also concerned about the impact on my husband if things don't work as he has been explaining how it will crush him and he'd never be able to trust anyone again if we don't manage to work through this.

I just don't know if my heart is in this anymore, I want to be able to be happy with him and love him and our family deserves for me to work on this and fully commit to getting back on track, but I have no idea if I'll ever get back to where I need to be.

I am ashamed to admit I still have feelings for the other guy. I could obviously never be with him anyway so that is irrelevant, but it's clouding my judgement. I need to hear from people who have learnt to love their husbands again. Is that a thing? Will we ever get there?

I still can't believe any of this is happening.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Alcemeg · 01/05/2021 10:09

God, I love you lot. I wish you'd been around when I was going through all this years ago. OP, don't think you're being dense/frustrating. These are very difficult mind games to escape from.

And I just don't have any answer for it because he is so so rational and black and white about everything that I can't come up with an argument back!

I used to have a constant sense of not having a leg to stand on, like I was defending myself in a court of law. Do you?

If it's still like that, even now when he is supposedly making monumental efforts to do differently, then something really still hasn't shifted.

I'd say what's really missing, and doesn't seem to be manifesting despite his best efforts, is empathy and respect for you and your feelings.

You probably find it easy to accept that because you discount your own feelings, too. You've probably forgotten how to connect with them.

Flowers
namechanged9999 · 01/05/2021 10:11

You are in an abusive relationship and it won't change. Leave. He's manipulating you. I know this for a fact.

namechanged9999 · 01/05/2021 10:12

@TheThermalStair hit the nail on the head.

OP - my abusive ex husband also said he "reacts badly to stress". Find someone with more backbone. This is a shit excuse of an abuser

Alcemeg · 01/05/2021 10:17

I just want to add, OP, that it probably seems natural to you, that you're looking out for his feelings and he's not looking out for yours. Why should he? You've both got used to this one-way process, and it feels perfectly normal. His feelings are the ones that really count, that's right, isn't it? Yours are kind of irrelevant, really.

(Sorry if I'm assuming too much here, but I suspect not.)

Just consider growing old with someone like that. There may be times when life leans so heavily on you that you need support, instead of being the supporter. What then?

Alcemeg · 01/05/2021 10:19

@namechanged9999

Find someone with more backbone. This is a shit excuse of an abuser.

"More backbone" is a really good way of putting it. My now-DH would never dream of behaving moodily or nastily. Assuming that someone is hard-wired to treat us this way is a bit like assuming men can't control their sexual urges and must rape everything in sight.

Alcemeg · 01/05/2021 10:23

Oh no!!! I am sorry to keep banging on!!!!! I just keep thinking of things.

@helplesshopeless
If I'm right that you feel like you don't have a leg to stand on in that court of law where you keep having to appear on the witness stand, feeling shifty and ashamed, especially as you have a crime to defend...

...then maybe what you're really searching for to make sense of the situation is: The perfect argument. The one that will put your case clearly and convincingly, so that he will see your point and agree with you.

He won't, unfortunately.

Even if you fully understood your own feelings now (which you can't, because it will take perhaps years out of the relationship to develop an understanding of what "normal" looks like), there is no way you can explain them in a way that will override his own self-interest. Sorry.

Alcemeg · 01/05/2021 10:50

This reply has been deleted

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ravenmum · 01/05/2021 12:50

God, I love you lot. I wish you'd been around when I was going through all this years ago.
I agree, though on the other hand, I think I've only properly understood it by working it out for myself, rather than from being told it.

The "court of law" feeling is very familiar. I'd even put things down in writing for my ex as I thought it was the only way I could a) cope with his "logic" without him coming up with some new, confusing logic and b) make him understand.

You can't make people understand. If they want to understand, they listen when you tell them things and they try their best to understand. It's not a fight, so they don't defend themselves by attacking you.

And it's not logic; it's mind games. Not entirely deliberate maybe, but they've had years and years to test out different methods on you, and if pressing your guilt and responsibility buttons works best, that's what they do.

ravenmum · 01/05/2021 13:08

it seems a bit callous to cut and run when he is possibly on the brink of becoming a better version of himself
Again: if he's becoming a better person, it's because you showed him the consequences of his actions. You could argue that it would be bad for him to learn that his actions don't have consequences. If he really learns not to treat women with contempt, you could argue that leaving him might be the best thing you ever do for him.

Speaking as someone whose exh threw a grenade into the marriage, even though it hurt horribly, it's not like nothing good came of it. It really made me rethink my life and try to live it more meaningfully. And I got therapy for the first time and actually dealt with some issues that had been following me around since childhood. With my current bf, I think am better at talking about things and being more honest to him and myself. He's also nicer than my exh.

You've already got the pain; it's not something you can avoid by hanging around hoping the peg will become round.

Mix56 · 01/05/2021 13:42

All the above posts are Gold,
but I agree, when you are facing him & he is working on your mind, with his perfect responses & constant (drip drip drip) sad eyes, wanting reassurance & saying you didn't make it clear enough how damaging his behaviour was, I just kind of carried on putting up with it and making the most of things. So I didn't give him an opportunity...
Come on, wake up & smell the coffee, He KNEW he was treating you like shit.

You didn't need to tell him, & say it hurt you, he already knew .

What makes him stop & readjust his performance, was realising he had gone too far, that there was someone else out there who wanted you, & was nice to you,
& suddenly Bully boy is looking at divorce, losing his house, seeing his DC part time, losing his cook & bottle washer & the income she brings,
This is simply the wheel of the cycle of abuse. he will not keep it up.
Soon he will see you dithering, backing down, agreeing to sex, he will get back into his comfort zone.
I suppose if you don't want to take responsibility for the split, & don't want to make the wrong choice, all you have to do is brush it all under the carpet, sit & wait.
The proof, as the say, is in the pudding.

SortingItOut · 01/05/2021 15:34

Your husband will always blame you for his behaviour, he knew it was wrong but he didn't care.
He didn't treat anyone else like this and he could have got help before when you asked him to do anger management but he didn't.
You having a not-quite-an-affair has apparently made him see the light but really he's expecting you to beg forgiveness and have loads of sex with him.

I told my husband for 17 years that his emotional abuse and affairs destroyed me, destroyed my love for him, destroyed my trust and destroyed our marriage and I would walk away one day.
He didn't stop or change, too be fair he would stop for a month or 2 but the pull of affairs was too great.
When I made him leave (my rented house) he still thought it was part of a punishment and I'd have him back eventually.
It was only after 18mths when I met someone that he realised I had moved on and he admitted about the punishment theory he had but also then told me that I should have made it clearer I would leave and then he definitely would have stopped.
Plus he only did it for ego boosts and would never have left me for any of them...right then so I'll just put up with my husband doing that like its fine.

So even after 17 years of near constant discussions I was still in the wrong to end the marriage as I'd not made it clear enough that I would leave.

You could have told your husband every day his behaviour was unacceptable but I bet he still would have found a way of blaming you.
Men like that will never take responsibility for their actions.

I'm 3 years out and 15 months divorced and life is great, the not walking around on egg shells, making my own decisions on everything and not worrying what my husband is up to is something money can't buy.
I'm in a new relationship (19 months) and he is so very different to my ex husband and finally I realise what relationships should be like. I was planning to be single forever but life throws curve balls sometimes.
Due to what my ex husband did I have trust issues and I won't ever live with a man again but luckily my partner understands and is happy for us to be together but live apart.

There is a whole world out there that you could embrace without your husband being a thorn in your side, you not be ready to make the break yet but one day you will be.

Whatdirection · 01/05/2021 17:30

Hi Op,

So much of this thread resonates so deeply with me. Can l recommend this book. It has really helped me to redefine certain behaviours and to move away from confusion.

Out of the Fog: Moving From Confusion to Clarity After Narcissistic Abuse
by Amazon
Learn more: www.amazon.co.uk/dp/099959351X/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_RPS1F6M872ZZ9TXQ85AX?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Xx

loveyourself2020 · 01/05/2021 20:05

Dear OP, I must first thank you for starting this thread, as this is the best thread I have ever been on. There is so much wisdom, compassion, and love on these pages, and as someone who is dealing with separation right now, I am finding it really comforting.
I do not think that I am wise enough to add anything to what all these amazing women wrote to you so far. Right now, I actually want to comment on something completely different. No matter how some of the comments come across a bit tough, perhaps a bit patronizing, and critical, you are taking it all with so much patience and poise, it is really impressive. I keep waiting for you to lose your cool and tell some of the people off, but no, you patiently answer each one of them so calmly and with respect. You seem to be such a nice person and I am so sad that you do not have a partner who sees that, respects and appreciate that, cherishes it really.

I wish I had a partner like you, I wish you were my BFF.

I wish you all the best OP. No matter what you decide, I wish you are happy and content. You deserve the world, please remember it. You are an amazing person. Flowers

helplesshopeless · 01/05/2021 21:35

@loveyourself2020 that is so so lovely!! I would love to be your BFF Smile

I'm currently sat on our settee hiding under a blanket (honestly, no idea why Grin) after quite a tough discussion with him about my lack of ability to show affection (we attempted a nice date night but it got a bit raw). I will read all of your recent responses properly tomorrow - thank you again to all of you for your supportThanks

OP posts:
KatySun · 02/05/2021 07:04

Yesterday I was too tired to post, but I wanted to comment on your comment that ‘he does keep asking what he can do to give me space and is keen to help with that’, because the most obvious comment is that asking/talking about something is not doing. He gives you space by simply giving you space.

But what you have is attempt to push things with a ‘date night’ and then everything again being heaped on you and brought round to your lack of affection. That is not giving you space or actually, as I said before, genuinely understanding the damage his behaviour has done over time.

I would have been hiding under a blanket too. It’s the only way to put a barrier around you.

feelingchicken99 · 02/05/2021 08:02

Op. Thanks for starting this post and for continuing to post on it.
Am very much in the same situation as you and share the same feelings of trying to get the love back but being so far removed emotionally I don't know where to start.
We can operate as friends quite well but anything that involves affection or god forbid intimacy I just cannot manage.
I've been reading this with interest and taking advice from the other posters as well your all so lovely and supportive and I can see the patterns in you DH the posters point out in my own,
I remember the last time we tried to do date night, ended in disaster and tears it's so hard,
I keep having to tell my H that I'm not the centre of his world he is and the pressure he puts on me is not fair, he says the lack of affection from me is not fair.
We can't meet on common ground in this 😬

Whatdirection · 02/05/2021 08:38

Agree this is an incredibly supportive thread and it is really helping me as l navigate the tricky waters 10 weeks post separation.

My Ex sent a ‘let’s try again’ email on Friday suggesting we go to marriage counselling and implicating that we haven’t tried hard enough to fix things.

I had such a lonely night on Friday, for the first time l felt like caving and agreeing- l started to believe l couldn’t hack it on my own. I have felt a bit of a burden on my friends recently and a close one has backed off a bit so l am trying to give her space.

However yesterday l made myself join a walking group for the first time. I felt awful before leaving, fighting back the tears, feeling really low. But it was lovely - everyone was so friendly. It gave me such a boost. It also made me start to believe that l can create a life on my own.

Coming home and reading everyone’s comments so resonated with me. The behaviour is so similar its uncanny. But l now need to compose a reply to his email that is firm but dignified. I think the time is past for trying to make him understand. I have to accept he will never accept my story and it will always be about him. But l know he is hurting too.

Sorry didn’t want to hijack the thread. Op - you are in the middle of a storm and it will be so hard to see clearly.

I do believe that the scales are starting to come off from your eyes and the more reading you do, the more counselling you have, the more you post on here, the more your awareness will be heightened and the fog will start to clear.

You might not be ready right now but one day you will be. You deserve so much more than this man who brings you down and defines your reality for you.

In the Lundy Bancroft book, he puts a scenario where someone tells you what you have to do and you have to accept it. One option is to stay and one option is to go. He asks you to honestly assess how your gut reacts to those options.

How does your gut react if you were told you had to stay for the rest of your life?

How does your gut react if you were told you had to leave and make a new life for yourself?

When l did the exercise, my gut reacted far more strongly against the idea of staying. It felt like a prison sentence. That doesn’t mean to say l didn’t feel fear at the thought of leaving.

namechanged9999 · 02/05/2021 09:53

@Alcemeg the most difficult relationship is the normal one after the abusive one.

I am really struggling with my new normal relationship right now. It's all so alien not be abused.

Alcemeg · 02/05/2021 10:23

Ahhhh bless you all Flowers Flowers Flowers who have posted here about going through something similar. I wish I could wave a magic wand and speed things up for you! But that's the thing about the threshing machine of life: you just have to sit tight, battered from all directions, until eventually you emerge into the sunlight neatly baled.

It's all a learning curve, and in my case (and I suspect many of you), I was having to learn things that had been bullied out of me as a child, like being able to stick up for myself. And I didn't really learn them for years, even after the marriage ended. @namechanged9999, I didn't go straight into a normal relationship. It was much better, but there were still aspects of it that were somewhat abusive. I've landed safely on my feet now, but it did take a while. I don't regret any of that upheaval and anguish, though: it was the only way for me to learn how to be truly happy in the long run.

Along with giving yourself permission to have feelings, and take them seriously enough to act upon, I think there's another thing worth thinking about... not sure if I can explain this...

It has to do with that feeling that we must be correct in a court of law, and being wrong or making a mistake is unforgivable.

Be kind to yourself. Give yourself permission to get it wrong, until you get it right. You are struggling with deeply ingrained core beliefs that are not going to simply evaporate overnight, especially as your entire daily reality reinforces them.

When I split up from DH#1, he persuaded me to try again and I capitulated. Not once. Three times! Three times, over the course of a few months.

I felt weak and hated myself for making a bad situation worse.

But really I was just doing the best I could, and yielding to pressures I was used to giving in to.

Please be gentle with yourself. Flowers

loveyourself2020 · 08/05/2021 17:59

@helplesshopeless

How are you doing? Thinking of you.

helplesshopeless · 09/05/2021 08:34

Hello everyone I'm very sorry it's been a whole week since I've posted, I've been intending to get back to you all on your latest comments. @loveyourself2020 thank you for checking in! I really appreciate you thinking of me.

Things are ok here. My husband is still trying really hard to be a better person and I actually am starting to forget what the old him was like! He's being very caring, patient with our daughter, thoughtful, proactively creating opportunities to give me space, and so on. We had a chat last week about him making suggestive comments about sex and he apologised and has completely cut out all of that now. We're still tiptoeing around each-other in terms of trying to assess each other's moods and feelings so it can get a bit awkward as we're probably both being overly sensitive in analysing one another.

Regardless of the above though and how much more positive things seem, I still keep coming back to the same place - I just don't feel any love for him. I can't really remember what it feels like to feel love (for him) so I'm a bit lost in that respect. I just keep thinking that he is someone that has the potential to behave as he did previously, and I don't want to be with someone who has that in them.

I've done a lot of thinking around the point about me having not sat down and clearly spelled out to him how bad his behaviour was in the past. My therapist asked me what I would have liked to have said to him, and actually all I could think was I wouldn't want to have had to say anything at all, I'd want him to be someone who would never treat someone he loved like that. So I've kind of made my peace with that part of the issue.

How is everyone reacting to this almost overnight complete change in who he is and how he treats people ? Everyone must be talking about it and asking you what has happened

I0NA your post really made me smile, not sure if that was the intention Grin I totally what what you're saying, and you're absolutely right. Funnily enough his mother is probably the only other person who would sometimes bear the brunt of his rudeness, so I'm hoping she will actually benefit from his improved behaviour as well. Of course work colleagues and friends would never have guessed he had such little control over his temper!

This is not unfair OP, it's extremely insightful. You are right. In fact, I read back all your posts to pick out the below quotes and I was shocked at how much of this thread is actually about him, not you. It may feel to him as if you are "making it all about you" as you say above - but I'd say that was because, in the past, it was 100% about him, and now you're actually taking some time to figure out what you actually want, to him that feels hugely uncomfortable and unfair. But to the observer, it is not. What's that famous saying? When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

cavagirl thank you for taking the time to pick through my posts, the way you set it out really did spell out how much my own thoughts and feelings are/were driven by his moods and behaviour. I've been discussing that with my therapist (I've turned into someone who says 'my therapist says...' Grin) and I seem to be locked in this pattern of putting everyone else's feelings first and not really paying attention to my own. Not sure how to break free of that but I guess having an awareness of it is the first step!

I just want to add, OP, that it probably seems natural to you, that you're looking out for his feelings and he's not looking out for yours. Why should he? You've both got used to this one-way process, and it feels perfectly normal. His feelings are the ones that really count, that's right, isn't it? Yours are kind of irrelevant, really.

Just consider growing old with someone like that. There may be times when life leans so heavily on you that you need support, instead of being the supporter. What then?

alcemeg so many words of wisdom from you. The above really stayed with me as that is definitely where we were. Even now, when he is really trying to be caring and thoughtful, I don't quite believe it's coming from a place of actual altruism. If I do take him up on any offers of kindness I usually feel guilty/selfish. And yes, I can't even imagine growing old with him at the moment!!

sortingitout thank you for sharing your experience, I'm so pleased to hear that life is so much better for you now!

feelingchicken sorry to hear that you're in a similar place to me Sad it is so hard isn't it, I feel like I'm going round in circles! How are things for you now?

whatdirection how are you doing? Did you manage to get out to your walking group this weekend (the weather may have destroyed that opportunity!) and did you manage to compose a strong reply to your husband?

  • How does your gut react if you were told you had to stay for the rest of your life?

*How does your gut react if you were told you had to leave and make a new life for yourself?

When l did the exercise, my gut reacted far more strongly against the idea of staying. It felt like a prison sentence. That doesn’t mean to say l didn’t feel fear at the thought of leaving.

This is a really interesting exercise! I have reactions to both for very different reasons. For the first, I feel a sense of panic/impending doom almost. For the second, just fear around what will happen if I make the leap. I'm going to keep coming back to this exercise though and try and tune in to exactly what my gut is saying Smile

OP posts:
I0NA · 09/05/2021 09:01

I0NA your post really made me smile, not sure if that was the intention grin I totally what what you're saying, and you're absolutely right. Funnily enough his mother is probably the only other person who would sometimes bear the brunt of his rudeness, so I'm hoping she will actually benefit from his improved behaviour as well. Of course work colleagues and friends would never have guessed he had such little control over his temper!

I did mean to make you smile, but more in an ironic way. Because you can see quite clearly can’t you ?

He DOES have control over his temper because he doesn’t act like that at work.

He DID know it was wrong to treat you like that. Because he didn’t treat anyone else like that.

His actions towards you were a CHOICE that he has complete control over. The fact that he has stopped overnight proves that.

He behaved like that because

  • he enjoyed being in control of you and feeling powerful
  • he liked the outcome ( you always doing what he wanted and him and his feelings ways being the centre of attention)
  • he didn’t care about the mental, physical and emotional impact on you.

He has only stopped ( for a while ) when the potential costs were too high/ inconvenient for him.

Divorce is messy and costly and most men like having free companionship, sex, childcare and housework on tap. These things are expensive ( in time and money ) for single men to buy.

I’m glad that things are better in your life now. But you and I both know that this is just an act and he will stop it in an instant as soon as the normal power balance is restored.

My guess is that he will try to do this by either getting you to leave your job or getting you pregnant. That will make you vulnerable.

Or perhaps life will do that for him, if you get made redundant or one of your friends / family gets ill. Anything that makes it harder for you to leave him.

So please tread very very carefully here. Use your head and not your heart.

If you do have sex use very reliable contraception, ideally two methods.

Whatdirection · 09/05/2021 09:23

Morning Op,

Glad to hear you are ok. Yes l managed to send a reply that took me most of the weekend to compose and guess what - he didn’t even acknowledge it - probably because it wasn’t what he wanted to hear.

It feels like every now and then he will do the equivalent of ‘casting his fishing rod out’ in the hope that l might bite. It sends me into a complete flummox and l spend far too much time creating a response....which he then ignores!

I always think a good judge of someone’s temperament is how they behave when they are ill or stressed or things don’t go their way. How they react when they hear a ‘no’. Your partner is treading very very carefully. You may need to wait until a bit of life’s normal stresses and strains appear to get the true measure of his commitment to change.

The book l recommended a few posts ago has been an absolute lifesaver. I think it’s really good for sorting it brain fog and confusion - might be a good one for you to try.

Cavagirl · 09/05/2021 11:15

Sounds like really positive steps OP, keep going.

This is a really interesting exercise! I have reactions to both for very different reasons. For the first, I feel a sense of panic/impending doom almost. For the second, just fear around what will happen if I make the leap. I'm going to keep coming back to this exercise though and try and tune in to exactly what my gut is saying

Time to come back to Sheryl then Grin

Can you articulate what exactly you are afraid of? Can you visualise making the leap, and the worst case scenario? What does that look like? How would you get through it?

helplesshopeless · 09/05/2021 11:50

I’m glad that things are better in your life now. But you and I both know that this is just an act and he will stop it in an instant as soon as the normal power balance is restored.

Perhaps...possibly not an intentional decision from him but more slipping back into old habits. At the moment he knows I hold all the cards so to speak as he's made it clear he wants to be with me and he knows I don't love him. I can see things getting back to how they used to be if we had another baby (which he wants) and with the normal stresses that would bring.

whatdirection glad to hear you're doing ok and well done for managing to stay firm and respond to your husband in a way that you're hopefully satisfied with - it sounds like you handled it really well if he didn't even respond...almost like he knows he's failed to reel you in, so you've passed the test in that respect!! Thank you for the book recommendation as well, I will add it to the list. I have so many books I need to read based off of this thread! Grin

  • Time to come back to Sheryl then

Can you articulate what exactly you are afraid of? Can you visualise making the leap, and the worst case scenario? What does that look like? How would you get through it?*

Ha, good old Sheryl! I think I am mainly afraid of making the wrong decision to be honest! I've got my head around the financial side of things and what custody arrangements might (hopefully) look like. But I'm worried I'll finally make the leap, things settle down, and I suddenly realise I've been a huge fool in tearing us apart. I have no idea how I'd get through that if that was the case- couldn't exactly come crawling back! Not sure if I should admit this but I'm really really trying to not think about the OM, as I know that shouldn't be a factor in this, but if I'm honest I probably would hope that we could see each other again, and I'm worried that any decision I make is going to be clouded by that hope. Basically I don't trust my feelings at all at the moment!

OP posts: